 Poster: A snowHead
|
Daishan, It may possibly be a way if screwing down the coffin lid on that debate . . . Oh F* that . . . it's not a debate it's just chimps throwing poo at each other on one side the Luddites that look for every possible disadvantage/weakness - on the other - the sycophants who (metephorically) require a H&S analysis and Hazmat suit before they can use a public bog.
ALL protection is SOME protection . . . its performance is in a constant state of investigation, research, development and production. The decision to forgo its use is one based on self worth and arrogance, the decision to employ it is based on self worth and arrogance.
The whole discussion is just a large pile of poop until there is a base of data to make an empirical judgement against.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
pam w, That is part of communicating with your children and offering a measure of common sense in THEIR decision making. The difference between parenting rather than stewardship.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| pam w wrote: |
Masque - I don't buy that argument at all (ie you insist on doing it your way till they are able to make their own decisions). If I were a 12 year old whose Dad insisted I wore a helmet but refused to wear one himself I'd be extremely unimpressed; don't do as I do, do as I say. Terrible parenting.  |
That I think is where society has gone wrong. When I was a kid and told to do something I did it. I had respect for my elders. Nowadays we struggle to control kids.
'don't do as I do, do as I say. Terrible parenting.' My backside.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
I think if there are reasonable steps that you can do to prevent someone having to turn out a warm safe location to come and rescue you that it demonstrates respect for others to deploy said steps. If one person wearing a helmet prevents one rescue then it must surely be a good thing. Just as it demonstrates concern for others to wear a seat belt so that someone won't go to sleep with the knowledge of your guts splattered all over a windscreen, or safety clothing on a motorcycle or horse so you don't use up the county's resources caring for your injuries that could be spent on a more worthwhile case, or carrying sufficient material to stay safe overnight if you have to if you are hiking so you don't put a team of people at risk coming to find you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
allanm, these days, even parents have to earn respect. Our children are far more informed than we ever were (for good or ill) so we have to include them in the decision making process . . . doesn't mean they will get what they want but they should know why a choice is made.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 12-01-14 20:49; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Megamum, I don't think anyone feels differently. This is a debate about what is reasonable. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Then why do we have so many discipline problems, primarily in schools, that we didn't have 40yrs ago? IMV the bubble has burst, kids won't do nought (without tears) unless they agree.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
meh, then on the basis of my points above I personally think wearing a helmet is reasonable
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
allanm, masque, that's a whole new thread!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
When I was a kid and told to do something I did it. I had respect for my elders. Nowadays we struggle to control kids.
|
You don't think it's right to be able to give kids some kind of logical reason why what you say is right? To be able to point to some kind of evidence?
"If I catch you smoking I'll smack you one, but if I smoke, that's my right because I'm a big grownup"
I'm still waiting for anyone to provide any logical reason why a non helmet-wearing parent would insist on a child wearing one.
I didn't struggle to control my kids, by the way but I might have done if I'd insisted that they did stuff I didn't believe in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Megamum, me too! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Masque wrote: |
Daishan, It may possibly be a way if screwing down the coffin lid on that debate . . . Oh F* that . . . it's not a debate it's just chimps throwing poo at each other on one side the Luddites that look for every possible disadvantage/weakness - on the other - the sycophants who (metephorically) require a H&S analysis and Hazmat suit before they can use a public bog.
ALL protection is SOME protection . . . its performance is in a constant state of investigation, research, development and production. The decision to forgo its use is one based on self worth and arrogance, the decision to employ it is based on self worth and arrogance.
The whole discussion is just a large pile of poop until there is a base of data to make an empirical judgement against. |
Exactly, if you want to wear a helmet, wear one, if you don't, don't.
Both sides will preach why the other is wrong and to varying degrees both are wrong, but repeated tittle tattle just gets boring and for one am so done with it all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
allanm, Because parents haven't a clue what's happening in the World of the pre-teen? You only have to look at the antics of the pre-pubescent Justin Bef'kwit fans who think this talentless pizzle dribble is God's own second coming. Have you taken time to watch any of his concert recordings? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| pam w wrote: |
I'm still waiting for anyone to provide any logical reason why a non helmet-wearing parent would insist on a child wearing one. |
Because quite simply a child is more likely to do things without as much thought as an adult.
As and adult, you're not going to run into the road are you?... but I have seen kids do that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
pam w wrote:
I'm still waiting for anyone to provide any logical reason why a non helmet-wearing parent would insist on a child wearing one.
|
Well, my kids would accept an argument that at my age it is my right to make a decision to risk my life I am old enough to make reasoned decisions about the amount of risk I will take. Children do not have that ability (a lack of life experience) and are therefore likely to make more dangerous and ill informed decisions therefore it is reasonable for a parent to require their children to wear more safety gear than they do. In the same way it is reasonable for an adult to make an informed decision as to when and where to cross a road, but we teach children in the first place to use properly designed zebras and pedestrian crossing and drum the green cross code into them. We tell them that mummy might cross somewhere different to them, but they are not to cross there without an adult because it might not be safe (I believe until the age of around 14 children are physically less able to judge speed and distance of oncoming vehicles), the same is probably true for judging the speed of other skiers on hill or being able to read the terrain which physical life experience allows us to do. Children are more easily distracted and might not remember the vital 'look uphill before you set off' etc. i.e. I can think of many reasons for requiring children to wear a helmet when the parents may choose not to (beyond the fact that it is required in many situations). Children are for more likely to end up in dangerous situations than adults due to their lack of skills caused solely by their young age and lack of overall experience and judgement. Ergo you do all you can to apply safe solutions to them.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 12-01-14 21:18; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
As and adult, you're not going to run into the road are you?... but I have seen kids do that.
|
that's about roads, what's that got to do with skiing? Yes, a child might fall in a bit of thin snow and hit their head on a rock. But an adult would never do that, would they? A child might get in the way of an out of control 18 stone fat snowboarder. But an adult would never be in the wrong place at the wrong time, would they? A little child might have a chair lift bar brought down on their head with a clang by some idiot, but a 6 foot adult? Never.
Still waiting for a logical argument.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
pam w, logical argument above - cross posting
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Cycling helmets are an interesting parallel (at least for me) - i hardly ever used to wear one, then i went to wearing one but taking it off for big climbs in hot places, but now i wear one all the time. I ride a lot more than i ski (6-7,000 miles a year) and just wear a helmet out of habit now - but i have no illusions that in the vast majority of situations where i'd fall off my bike (and again - i never do - actually, not quite true - fell off my 'cross bike on some ice at about 5mph and ripped my pants 4 years ago) it'd make no difference to the outcome.
Now to be fair i don't ride an MTB at all, and I don't do much CX off-road either, but i do find it odd that with the sort of mileage i do, and despite wearing one all the time, i don't have all the near-death experiences that most very-pro-cycling-helmet bods seem to do. So what is it? Is it that i'm just amazingly fortunate, not only to not have any head injuries either cycling or skiing (or indeed seen any) or do some people exaggerate the frequency that they experience near-death?
FWIW round here there's been a bit of a spate of people falling off bikes - no head injuries but three broken hips - time for padded pants?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
It all depends on the age of the kid, if nothing else it is a good place to write the guardians mobile number, that reason alone is logical
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
As and adult, you're not going to run into the road are you?... but I have seen kids do that.
|
that's about roads, what's that got to do with skiing? Yes, a child might fall in a bit of thin snow and hit their head on a rock. But an adult would never do that, would they? A child might get in the way of an out of control 18 stone fat snowboarder. But an adult would never be in the wrong place at the wrong time, would they? A little child might have a chair lift bar brought down on their head with a clang by some idiot, but a 6 foot adult? Never.
Still waiting for a logical argument..... |
Do you honestly think a child has the same thought processes (or experience) as an adult? I'll not go into each one in detail, but I watch when people bring the bar down, and I'll stop it, if required (or try). Can (or does) a kid do that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Megamum, sorry, if I was a child and my mum told me that I had to wear a helmet because it made me safer but she didn't have to because she could decide to live life dangerously I'd take a very dim view of it - and I'd be very sad.
That's not remotely logical.
Still waiting........
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pam w, see my post above
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pam w, my kids (11 and 13) have never ever asked me why they wear a helmet and I don't. And they ask about pretty much everything else - it's just How It Is. In fact that's a time I often don't wear a helmet on my bike - pootling along the canal du midi with them. And again, they've never asked why i'm not wearing it. Although I must admit that one of the reasons i've bought a skiing helmet is that they both wear ine all the time, so i thought i'd give it a go.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
pam w, have you missed the point? It's not that we decide to live more dangerously, it's because an adult is more able to assess risks and deal with them than a child - consequently we are actually at lower risk doing what might be perceive as the same activity and can choose to take less precautions because of this. In fact we are not doing exactly the same activity because as an adult we are making subtle changes that mean we are at less risk and can take fewer safety precautions because of it. i.e. by the time we are an adult we have learned sufficient control of a sharp knife and have sufficient strength in our fingers that we can cut chips from a peeled potato in mid air. Kids on the other hand are safer if taught to use a chopping board with the knife and potato and chop down away from their fingers. We are both making chips, but I will happily stand next to my child and their chopping board and make chips in mid-air, but won't let them do so. As a parent I find I am able to explain this concept to my kids - they don't take a dim of view of it because they comprehend the logic of the explanation.
It is well known that kids are impervious to the risks of skiing, speed, steepness of slope, ice, poor vis - you name it. They have never learned to fear it so they don't, but that doesn't mean it isn't risky. If you showed a child a convex 45 degree off piste slope, full of cracks with heavy snow fall following a freeze thaw event and said ski down there a child wouldn't question it, but I damn well would.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 12-01-14 21:40; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Megamum, you're talking about chopping boards and sharp knives. Can we please talk about skiing? Which of the dangers from which a child's helmet might help protect them can be avoided by adults by virtue of their greater life experience?
dode, everyone should carry an emergency contact number, especially those who ski alone - not just small kids.
Still waiting......
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
and, within a family, is it a greater tragedy for a 4 year old to be killed on the slopes than for his bread-winning parent to be killed leaving him and his siblings un-provided for?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| pam w wrote: |
Megamum, sorry, if I was a child and my mum told me that I had to wear a helmet because it made me safer but she didn't have to because she could decide to live life dangerously I'd take a very dim view of it - and I'd be very sad.
That's not remotely logical.
Still waiting........ |
I don't see anything remotely logical about that statement.
Children simply don't have the same [life] experience as adults, are therefore more at risk and need to be mollycoddled as necessary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
See above (which I edited whilst you were typing) It is well known that kids are impervious to the risks of skiing, speed, steepness of slope, ice, poor vis, other skiers on the mountain and kids perception of their speed - you name it. They have never learned to fear it so they don't, but that doesn't mean it isn't risky. If you showed a child a convex 45 degree off piste slope, full of cracks with heavy snow fall following a freeze thaw event and said 'ski down there' a child wouldn't question it, but I damn well would.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Sun 12-01-14 21:43; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I can't find the original article I read a couple of years ago but this gives you an idea.
Basically kids speed perception takes a surprisingly long time to develop.
| Quote: |
| even the older children did not match the adults in their ability to detect an automobile’s approach, suggesting that the neural mechanisms for this skill remain undeveloped. |
Not taking sides, just found it interesting that there's an actual measurable difference in how kids perceive speed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
pam w, heard the expression 'Kids have no fear'.... No , I though not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Pam, I think you must have your music playing, either that or you are just not listening..... But to be as pedantic as yourself.... To attach their bunny ears to
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Daishan, that's exactly what I referred to above. Speed perception is an essential skill on the mountain I think, to be able to judge the speed of other skiers around you and avoid collisions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
allanm, dode, Megamum, I have done a very large amount of skiing and the people I see behaving most stupidly on the slopes are not small children. I don't buy any of those arguments. If you believe that helmets make people safer, and insist that your kids wear one but don't do the same yourself, then that's hypocrisy in my book. And anyone who thinks that kids are "impervious to the risks of skiing" has perhaps not skied with very many children. I have three kids, all now grown up - one was pretty impervious to risks (and is now by light years the best skier in the family and now much more savvy, particularly knowledgeable about avalanche risk) and the other two were perhaps too aware of the risks and always a bit anxious and worried. Similarly of my grand-children now skiing, some are much more aware of risks than others (one is quite scared of fast skiers approaching from behind, though I don't think that's a good thing, as glancing round anxiously when you're not a great skier is a big mistake).
You are all clutching at straws; if you think helmets make people safer then as a responsible parent, with all that entails, refusing to wear one yourself is irresponsible. If you belong to the Swiller/Goldsmith school (ie anti helmet) then I have no problem with that, but than naturally you wouldn't put your kids in helmets, would you?
The suggestion that "kids know no fear" is so wrong as to be laughable as anyone who has taught a sport such as sailing, or skiing, to kids would know all too well. I went up a chairlift with a child from a ski school who was literally shaking with fright - he was about 8 years old and petrified, saying the lift was too high, and too fast. His gratitude, when I helped him get off safely, was pathetic. Some kids are fearless but to suggest that they all are is crass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
I never said helmets make people safer... You asked for a situation where a kid would wear a helmet when the parent doesn't, I said to attach bunny ears... Your music is too loud...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Now I remember why I don't join these idiotic threads . . . they make me look sensible 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pam w, surely you appreciate that children, in general, are easily distracted and lack focus - this is why they are not as safe as adults when trying to cross busy roads. Just walking to ski school in the morning I would constantly have to check my 7 year old with regard to the traffic as the snow meant that pavements were not visible/distinguishable and shed end up wandering into the road as she chatted on about Pokemon etc - myself, husband, 12 year old daughter didnt have the same problem. This is the same when on ski runs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| Some kids are fearless but to suggest that they all are is crass. |
Eh? No one suggested that of all kids.
"kids know no fear" is absolutely correct once the kids have mastered the initial skills. I too teach (at L2 inc kids). Do You?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pam w, by your own admission:
| Quote: |
one was pretty impervious to risks
|
In other words this one wasn't aware of the risks - so that's one
| Quote: |
one is quite scared of fast skiers approaching from behind, though I don't think that's a good thing, as glancing round anxiously when you're not a great skier is a big mistake
|
So this one does something you wouldn't do as an adult either - that's two
| Quote: |
Some kids are fearless
|
Exactly - nail on head and your suggestion is that the non-helmet wearing parent shouldn't cover the chance that they have one of these - Heavens!! I have two of them - now thankfully getting a bit more aware of things, but it wasn't always like this
So between us we know at least four kids that haven't seen certain risks during skiing that adults do. That's not a bad average 4 kids in two people - and how many ski?.......................
I've dealt with many kids, I've taught riding lessons, first aid courses and I've been an assistant on class trips, I've watched primary school kids who think they can run and lark about down a steep very wet icy slope in the pitch dark and then fall over and graze their knees, lose their shoes etc. - yet were the same kids who resisted the suggestion that they should walk (I've done this trip 10 times and every year it happens). Why do they put adult helpers with school trips if kids are so capable with risk, why is it necessary for safety to have a certain quantity of adults to kids at certain ages ? Why do they like to put a child on a lift next to an adult if they can - its because kids don't have the maturity to cope - they might panic if they too high off the ground on a ski lift for example, mightn't they?
I don't 'buy' your derision, which is supported by fact such as that study linked to by Daishan, above and I am tempted to call 'troll' .
Edit NB. The fact that it isn't just me that doesn't agree with your point is also fairly telling.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 12-01-14 22:17; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
