 Poster: A snowHead
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How about an online survey?? If you wear a helmet type Y, if not N. If you have suffered a head injury add a - for every occasion, if you wear a helmet and it has saved you add a + for every occasion,
For me.. N
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Oh, is this a helmet thread?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, I'm not trolling, but astonished at the arguments being put forward here. Don't you think adult horse-riders should wear helmets?
Did I miss the study that demonstrated that kids have more ski accidents than adults?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
Megamum, I'm not trolling, but astonished at the arguments being put forward here. Don't you think adult horse-riders should wear helmets?
Did I miss the study that demonstrated that kids have more ski accidents than adults? |
1. They do.
2. They.. possibly might not. Cos parents make em wear helmets.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I really don't care whether people wear helmets or not, or put their kids in helmets or not. I'm interested in the logic, though, of people who think that helmets will make some classes of skiers safer but make no difference to others.
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Do you need a study? I'm sure we all had many more ski accidents as kids than we do as adults. Mainly because, in my case, I wasn't as competent a skier, I skied beyond my limits, I thought I was immortal, I actively sought out jumps whenever I could, I thought it would be cool to ski in my dookers... Now I know better
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^^ Kids.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, Mega and I both wear helmets so we are pro-helmet yet we can see that adults might reasonably make a decision that their kids are kids and hence mess about/daydream/dont focus on potential dangers etc so might be best protected by wearing helmets whereas the adult who has skied for xxx years with no accidents despite listening to music on the slope might think they are less at risk of accident so dont wear helmets.
From personal experience this last holiday Izzie (7) was the only one of the family in a controlled group (lessons) but ph, Eve ( 12) and myself did not fall once whereas Izzie did, a couple of times.
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(and she didnt even do a black!!) 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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At the end of the day it's all about personal risk assessment. You don't wear a helmet in the car, where , I believe you (or your children) are most likely to have an accident.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't know about ski accidents, but ask the school nurse how many plasters she puts on kids knees because they have fallen over running, or because they have cannoned into someone, then ask her when was the last time she doctored one of the adults in the premises because they fell over. Kids do have more accidents because they spend more time doing daft things that as adults we no longer do.
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, true.... I don't get nearly the same pleasure making myself dizzy as I once did, and no longer dedicate the same amount of time to that practice
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I don't really give a stuff about this argument. If someone feels happier wearing a helmet, fine. Personally I would expect my kids to wear one and if i was doing anything stupid off-piste I would wear mine. But not for general skiing. What really worries me about this debate is that sooner or later the folk who love compelling other people will make it compulsory. Even though the evidence is at best limited, at worst non-existent. And I really hate compulsion.
I would just like people to at least follow the FIS rules. That would reduce accidents to less than 10% based on my personal experience.
And talking of safety and the environment, if you want to get to the slopes more safely take the train: http://www.snowandrail.com
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Poster: A snowHead
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dode, I now HATE going on the roundabout at the park...why is that?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, people have consistently referred to non-skiing examples so I thought that if I can't beat 'em, I'll join 'em. 
I thought I'd ask about an activitiy where you have more extensive experience. All the arguments about "life experience", better judgement, more cautious, judging speed of vehicles etc etc etc etc apply just as much (or as little) to horse-riding as to skiing. Would you not find it surprising if a family went out riding together with the kids in helmets and the parents (on whom the kids are entirely dependent) without?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Shimmy Alcott, ditto, if only I knew as a kid that I would grow out of it I wudda spent even more time practising
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
Megamum, people have consistently referred to non-skiing examples so I thought that if I can't beat 'em, I'll join 'em.
I thought I'd ask about an activitiy where you have more extensive experience. All the arguments about "life experience", better judgement, more cautious, judging speed of vehicles etc etc etc etc apply just as much (or as little) to horse-riding as to skiing. Would you not find it surprising if a family went out riding together with the kids in helmets and the parents (on whom the kids are entirely dependent) without? |
Skis are inanimate objects. A horse isn't. Something approaching my skis at high speed can't make them do anything without my input but it could make a horse freak out and act unpredictably regardless of what I do or don't do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w,as mentioned above I am a helmet wearing advocate (in all sports where you can wear one), so personally yes, I think a family riding together should all wear helmets, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if examples of adults not wearing them and children doing so do exist.
Would it surprise you if I could produce an example of an adult taking more care of their safety than of their kids?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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swiftoid, A mogul field "approaching my skis at high speed" CAN make them "freak out".
My skis must have a mind of their own coz I think I can ski fabulously!!!
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ALQ,
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| sev112 wrote: |
| An intesting viewpoint : perhaps it shouldn't be ourselves who choose whether we wear a helmet or not, but instead we ought to ask our partners or our children who will be looking after us for the rest of our lives following a serious head injury |
Will they get to decide the overall level of risk that we take as well?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There seems to be a lot of empirical and anecdotal studies that try to correlate helmets and head injuries. I'd love to see some test and experiments. While I doubt it add any more information than what manufacturer already know, I would find a mythbusters episode on helmets and safety gear quite interesting.
They could even testing things like peripheral vision and affects on hearing.
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kfyh, Good idea. Here's my suggestion for an experiment, which I hope will go some way to resolving this debate on the benefits of wearing a helmet:
1. To test against penetration from a sharp object, bang your head gently against tip of ski pole or knitting needle, then much harder. Note damage (if any).
2. To test against impact, bang your head gently against a brick wall, then much harder. Note damage (if any).
3. To test against oblique angle impact, bang your head gently against a brick wall at a 45% angle, then slightly harder. Note damage (if any).
4. To test against impairment of peripheral vision, look straight ahead while wearing goggles and bring your outstretched hands in from your sides until you can see them. Note position of hands.
5. To test against impairment of hearing, have a mate whisper 'shhhh' quietly about 10 feet behind you while wearing a beanie. Can you hear them (Y/N)
Repeat wearing a helmet.
Compare notes and post on here with pics.
CG...you go first 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Perhaps we could agree that anybody posting another question on the benefits of ski helmets, should be advised to perform this experiment...either on themselves or their child? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| feef wrote: |
Too hot? find one with better vents -- Why bother, bare hats will be cooler for zero expense!
Not comfortable? You've tried every helmet on the market?? -- Again, why bother, zero expense and discomfort to go without!
Affects hearing and awareness? Remove the ear-pads, not that ear pads do any more muffling than a beanie. -- Again, why bother, zero expense to go without!
Affects field of vision? Again, try different makes/models. And they certainly don't obscure more of your vision than goggles -- What if you're only wearing sunglasses? |
All your arguement assumes one NEEDS a helmet. But the article had made the point it's not NEEDED!
So all the "solution" to overcome about helmet are waste of energy, if you choose NOT to wear one in the first place!
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| pam w wrote: |
| The suggestion that "kids know no fear" is so wrong as to be laughable as anyone who has taught a sport such as sailing, or skiing, to kids would know all too well. I went up a chairlift with a child from a ski school who was literally shaking with fright - he was about 8 years old and petrified, saying the lift was too high, and too fast. His gratitude, when I helped him get off safely, was pathetic. Some kids are fearless but to suggest that they all are is crass. |
I doubt anyone is arguing all kids are fearless at all times. Most people become better at risk assessment as they get older (it's called wisdom). Most people become more risk averse as they become older. Check out insurance premiums if you doubt this, or the figures on criminal convictions versus age.
Personally I was almost entirely fearless as a skier as a child and teenager. I knew people got hurt but didn't emotionally process that it might happen to me. I was far from fearless on the rugby pitch. Why the difference? I'm not sure. Probably to do with liking skiing and loathing rugby but if that were the case, where does cause end and effect start?
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You know it makes sense.
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| nicoatridge wrote: |
| I don't really give a stuff about this argument. If someone feels happier wearing a helmet, fine. Personally I would expect my kids to wear one and if i was doing anything stupid off-piste I would wear mine. But not for general skiing. What really worries me about this debate is that sooner or later the folk who love compelling other people will make it compulsory. Even though the evidence is at best limited, at worst non-existent. And I really hate compulsion. |
That's exactly my position. I want to retain choice.
When I climbed, I'd wear a helmet if there was significant risk of ice or stone landing on my head. Otherwise not. There's little doubt it would be safer to wear a helmet at all times but most climbers find it more pleasant not to.
When I cycle, I wear a helmet off-road but not on-road. My risk calculation is that coming off the bike is a significantly higher risk off-road.
I want to be able to continue to be able to make the same assessments skiing but I can see a trend towards taking that freedom of choice away e.g. mandatory use of cycle helmets in some countries.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ALQ wrote: |
Compare notes and post on here with pics.
CG...you go first |
Excellent points above. My crash dummies are working on this right now.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
wear a helmet because I find it much less itchy than a hat, because it plays me music
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I don't give a monkeys whether you wear a helmet or not BUT I do take huge exception that you play music through it. In my experience people skiing with music playing have very much reduced situational awareness and are a huge danger to me. I have never felt so harassed by people behind me as I did at Saas Fee where the practice seemed endemic. From my observation elsewhere this seems a general rule.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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andyrew, I'm afraid you're the victim of a giant con.
The fact that helmet manufacturers have created their giant industry of ineffective lids with scares and falsehoods (yes, I'm afraid that significant truths will emerge) ... before compounding their cynicism with 'in-helmet entertainment', which they know is so unsafe ... means that they should not be supported any longer (in my view). These factories are simply not in the safety business.
If it's the truth is that heads were just as safe (once all the data is assembled) before helmets existed ... which seems to be the emerging truth ... then these helmet brands do not deserve financial support!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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andyrew, agreed, hopefully they are more likely to injure themselves than others. Why go skiing at all if you are going to encase your head in foam and plastic, more foam and plastic over your eyes and ears and then pump music through earphones. Might as well stand on the sofa with a Playstation.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
What kind of logic would make a parent insist on a child wearing a helmet if they don't wear one themselves? |
This is when I started to wear a helmet. There were virtually no other motivating factors.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Comedy Goldsmith,  words fail me...................
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Masque wrote: |
| allanm, these days, even parents have to earn respect. Our children are far more informed than we ever were (for good or ill) so we have to include them in the decision making process . . . doesn't mean they will get what they want but they should know why a choice is made. |
Spot on Masque
Is this the most informative SH thread ever ?
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andyrew, yes, I think music makes many situations more dangerous. Last year I happened to be at a festival. It was all very pleasant, sun in the sky, young drunk folk all around and all was well. Later in the day a rock band came to play some rather loud and aggressive music and folk started to mosh. I think we all know how the saying goes, "once you mosh you just can't stop" or its something to that effect. I have no doubt that the loud aggressive music and this moshing were no doubt interlinked so music definitely made it more dangerous. I like your point. Now if I'd been wearing a helmet in these mosh pits I think I would have felt safer and therefore perhaps moshed more aggressively, this may have put me in more danger. As it was I'd left my ski helmet at home so didn't go for the aggressive moshing and slinked away as I deemed it safer. Long story short, I'll probably bring a helmet along to a festival next year and give it a go.
Do back protectors work?
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| Timberwolf wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
| allanm, these days, even parents have to earn respect. Our children are far more informed than we ever were (for good or ill) so we have to include them in the decision making process . . . doesn't mean they will get what they want but they should know why a choice is made. |
Spot on Masque
Is this the most informative SH thread ever ? |
Yes, only cos we can't give em a good whack. I was afraid of the police when I was nipper...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| andyrew wrote: |
| ... BUT I do take huge exception that you play music []. In my experience people skiing with music playing have very much reduced situational awareness and are a huge danger to me. |
Except for my deaf snowboarding friends I guess, who you incorrectly suggest are more dangerous that other people.
Check the FIS rules: when you're starting off in front of me, or entering the slope, you must explicitly "look"; listening is not sufficient.
If I'm approaching you from behind:
(1) I'm silent. I may be playing music, but I don't sing.
(2) I'm responsible for you, unless you fail to look when starting off.
By analogy, your car has a radio in it. Whilst I'm sure you never use that, those who do are still able to use their eyes to see me on my (silent) bike.
I think this whole thing is just people like you who want to tell people like me what to do. Good luck with that!
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| abc wrote: |
| feef wrote: |
Too hot? find one with better vents -- Why bother, bare hats will be cooler for zero expense!
Not comfortable? You've tried every helmet on the market?? -- Again, why bother, zero expense and discomfort to go without!
Affects hearing and awareness? Remove the ear-pads, not that ear pads do any more muffling than a beanie. -- Again, why bother, zero expense to go without!
Affects field of vision? Again, try different makes/models. And they certainly don't obscure more of your vision than goggles -- What if you're only wearing sunglasses? |
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So the answer is laziness and fashion?
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FAQ
