Given the extreme dangers the trick is to avoid anything that might avalanche. With the required knowledge it is actually very simple to do. Avalanches rarely happen on slopes below 30 degrees in steepness, so people need to keep on slopes under 30 degrees.
Perhaps a little more caution has to be applied, particularly in relation to snow wetness, as below:
There's a great deal about the real and present danger ... covered by this off-piste snowHeads thread, started by davidof and well worth a read if you're looking to risk off-piste skiing in the forseeable future ...
Given James Cove's point, above, and the general wisdom, how easy is it to judge whether a slope is less than 30 degrees? [for untrained eyes, the device is called a clinometer]
How many avalanches, and in what conditions, occur on slopes gentler than 30 degrees?
A PisteHors.com (davidof's website) diagram sets the threshold at 25 degrees, rather than 30 degrees ... and the respective risks are clear [skirando.com] ...
So it's the intermediate slope steepness that produces most of the avalanches. But the bad news is that exactly the kind of slopes we like to ski or snowboard.
The University Corporation for Atmospheric Research says ...
Most avalanches occur on mountain slopes with a steepness between 30 and 45 degrees. Avalanches only occur on slopes of less than 30 degrees if the snowpack is very unstable.
The consensus (apart from being cautious between 25 and 30 degrees) is that wet snow presents a risk of sliding on the more gentle slopes, because it's heavier and flows more easily. The logic is simple, at the simplest level - fully melted snow (i.e. water) will flow at any angle above horizontal.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
30 degrees most probably comes from Munter's Elementary Reduction Method.
If you look at davidof's graph you can see there is a vanishingly small number of avalanches that occur on slopes <30 degrees. It's really late season and unusual conditions stuff.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Not hugely relevant, but maybe the PisteHors graph was seen by ...
In nature, avalanches begin when they reach the tipping point angle of 38 Degrees. In the UK, 38 Degrees members work together to bring about real change in the UK by taking action on the issues that we all care about, to create an avalanche for change.
38 degrees does seem to be the maximum risk angle.
it is quite clear that slopes above 55deg are nice an safe as well
presumably though it is not all that simple - you have to look at surrounding terrain - you could be on a nice flat green and if the snow comes off the side and across your piste ouch...
so the same for off-piste, but more so - what is the surrounding terrain as much as the area in which you are skiing...
Alasdair
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
This is so true. The worst UK avalanche last winter was at Chalamain Gap in the Cairngorms, involving experts from Glenmore Lodge - 3 died in a terrain trap. The base of the gap (it would seem from the photos) is gentle terrain.
Quite a challenge to consistently find sub-30-degrees ski terrain unthreatened by nearby steeper snow cover that could trigger ...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Good grief, the season for most European resorts goes well into April, now whilst at the moment there may be risks how on earth can anyone say what risks there will be in a months time let alone 3 months time.
As an example say a slope is currently unstable but tomorrow an avalanche occurs removing the unstable layer and then after fresh snow for the rest of the season it's good.
Blanket statements on such things just show how stupid some so called experts are.
The simple rule is whenever you go off piste you should assess the risks of doing so before you go.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I think the problem is that thereis a persistent weak later that is unlikely to go away in a hurry (it's been there since November), hence the longer than normal predictions of high danger.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Simplistic trick for slope angle - generally at slope angles steeper than 1v:2h (about 26.5 degrees) you can't walk up the slope unassisted, and need to put your hand down in front of you.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
evski, thing is if the weak layer gives then it is no longer present and the slope may well be safe afterwards
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Excerpt from today's avalanche forecast (level 2 throughout Savoie):
"The fragile layers which have been causing problems since Christmas seem to now be buried or isolated by more stable layers. The risk of slabs is becoming restricted to high-altitude slopes on North aspects."
Can we please drop some of the hysteria?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
stevomcd, fecking right, all though tis a Catch 22!
Having just finished a very intense week long Avalanche course & exams doing snow profiles every day and the like, we did on the course discuss the present Media Hype........
That said there is and will be an ever present danger for the foreseeable future, this layer will not be going away!
Video below was from three days ago and today on the exam in my "pit" on testing had one very dramatic sheer over a facet layer that was not from the surface but another 20cm - 30cm in 110cm !
Having completed said course this is only the start of my comprehension of trying to understand the various factors at work. And I've been skiing/boarding "merrily" off piste for the past 35 years before investing the time to learn more, and I'm now just at the start!
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 11-01-14 0:00; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
sev112 wrote:
Simplistic trick for slope angle - generally at slope angles steeper than 1v:2h (about 26.5 degrees) you can't walk up the slope unassisted, and need to put your hand down in front of you.
Confirmed and illustrated by Field Service Advisor, Eric Hovan, in a different field of activity ...
Comedy Goldsmith, do you actually ever get out on the Mountain ?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Weathercam wrote:
Comedy Goldsmith, do you actually ever get out on the Mountain ?
Yes, but I don't make a big thing about it, and only when the mountain is less than 30 degrees.
This presented a significant problem in Zermatt last April, and even in Niederau/Soll etc. last February, so I had to stay in the mountain restaurants etc.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Weathercam wrote:
Comedy Goldsmith, do you actually ever get out on the Mountain ?
Yes, particularly to dodge avalanches. I've been doing that, generally successfully, since 1959, with the main focus of my sliding and scribbling activities in the years 1974-1994.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Peter Hardy without fail, writes and talks dangly bits. there has been a huge thaw through the snow pack in many areas, stabilising it. Avalanche conditions change daily.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
nevis1003: "Avalanche conditions change daily."
Well, yes, this is the picture (for example) for Switzerland today.
I guess one could consider it honest medical advice, from someone whose business is partly based on things going wrong in the powder and crud.
However, the ski guides up the road from his surgery might take an opposing view!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Avalanches can happen anywhere & at anytime without warning. Just remember that..
Avalanches are not the only reason for Dangetous Off Piste this season.
Snow cover is marginal and when it does sniw it is only supeficially covering
the terrain. Many hidden obstacles lie just beneath (rocks,ditches,streams,tree stiumps).
These result in broken ankles,hips & worsr as we have seen recently.
A for once very valid point from stanton, lack of cover is at least as dangerous as avalanche risk.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
stanton wrote:
Snow cover is marginal and when it does sniw it is only supeficially covering
the terrain. Many hidden obstacles lie just beneath (rocks,ditches,streams,tree stiumps).
These result in broken ankles,hips & worsr as we have seen recently.
That's pish. Snow cover is amazing at the moment.
After all it is free
After all it is free
moffatross, I think it depends on where you are, for Instace the Jungfrau Region has pretty good piste conditions in general but there is not enough snow to safely do many of the off piste areas currently, though with snow forecast that may change this week
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
D G Orf, I think moffatross is referring to the conditions in Scotland. There is skiing outside of the Alps.
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Poster: A snowHead
