 Poster: A snowHead
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A new survey by Lloyds TSB insurance reveals that 20% of British skiers have erupted in 'piste rage' during their holidays.
Around 30% of these people said their anger was triggered by a collision with another skier and 20% attributed it to people blocking their route down the mountain.
People react in different ways. Around 30% said the incident destroyed their concentration and 21% said it went on to affect their entire day. Meanwhile, 20% of skiers admitted they had exchanged obscenities with the person who had annoyed them and 3% said they had even resorted to physical violence.
The report is the subject of an extensive article on The Scotsman website.
Does the data look credible this time? Comments?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| 20% attributed it to people blocking their route down the mountain. |
It is pretty poor when people bring their home attitudes on holiday... but with crowded pistes and lifts plus the queuing plus all the hassle with airport security and transfers no wonder some people are stressed out. Still I remember standing at the end of a slope with Olivier Carrere from Alpine Experience, we were over in Tignes. Some guy came whizzing down, took off over a bump, fell on landing and hit Olivier. He then got up and laid into Olivier saying he was blocking his line, ruined his run, how he was a jackass etc. Very disrespectful way to talk to a guide.
Other examples are more moot. I skied down a steep and icy piste at Val d'Isère which then joins a blue. Lots of people were milling around the bottom of the run having either come off the blue or having had difficulties on the icy run itself and were then taking a breather. I skied down the run and because the exit was blocked skied high up onto a bank and jumped over the back of some of the waiting skiers (having checked that the blue run was clear). This lead to a lot of piste rage with the waiting skiers who were very unhappy with me. No they shouldn't have been where they were but I should have been a bit more sensitive and not done something that would scare other resort users for the sake of showing off that I could ski the run. Mea Culpa.
I would be interested in what other people think about people blocking runs? Particuarly that perenial menace the seated boarder.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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People blocking runs doesn't annoy me too much. Why should it? It's not like there's an intent to upset you. I'd just put that down as a little frustrating.
I've speeded after skiers/boarders sometimes when they've collided (or nearly collided) with me or one of my group. I'd only do this if I think they've been incredibly reckless - when/if I catch up I let my displeasure be known. Probably a little infantile on my part but there you go 
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People blocking runs is not really a problem as it's the responsibility of the skier above to avoid them. However they do often stop in really silly and dangerous places. when this happens (if it's convenient with the group) I do try to explain to them why it's not a good idea to stop there. I find some of my students (not always the kids), continue to stop in the middle of the piste regardless of how many times I explain about it!
With regard to people hitting me or my group - my piste rage has to be seen to be believed. These people should be arrested, have their lift passes taken away, and be blacklisted by all the TOs. There IS NO EXCUSE for hitting abother skier/boarder unless you were first hit by someone else. If the offending person hits a child ski-ing with me - well .......
Having said that I do have reason: I've had my jaw broken in 3 places by another skier hitting me (10 years on still have lots of whiplash problems), my back problems have been badly exacerbated twice in the last 3 years by people using me as a stopping post, I've been carried down the Valentin by a snowboarder hitting me and grabbing me round the knees - that was scary - it's very hard to stop sliding on anything as steep as the Valentin! (To say nothing of my young student - 12 yo - who was then left alone about 150m further up the slope).
There you are - I've owned up. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Seems rather a high number to me, and "during their holidays" is a little vague. 20% of skier-days? Surely not. 20% of skier weeks, i.e. in a 6 day period have you shouted at anyone else (not including your own kids?) - maybe but still high. 20% of all people at any point in any holiday they've ever taken? Probably.
One issue I have with this sort of story is that it begins to insidously imply that as everyone else is doing it, it's acceptable. It's NOT.
The FIS guidelines for safe and happy skiing are reasonably clear about responsibility. The uphill skier has to avoid the downhill skier - I know I had abit of a rant about this last year - but it's quite clear.
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David, I hope we can source the original Lloyds TSB research and double-check their data and how it's presented. These surveys are great ways of whipping up attention from newspapers, public concern - and insurance business!
They also make great excellent meat for internet discussion, admittedly!
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I got off a lift at Easter to be confronted by a dozen Germans stood line abreast right at the end of the off ramp. There had been 8 stood in a line but the 4 on the chair in front of us joined the line at the end. I was with Mrs FTS and the 2 kids. Mrs FTS just manged to ski round the group (you could only go right) off the lift but there was no where for me and the kids to go, the only option being to stop half way down the ramp. I took the only sensible option which was to shout loudly, pick the widest gap in the line and to make the gap much wider. The kids spotted what I was doing, put a quick turn in and followed me through the gap.
The Germans went off it, but I, MRS FTS, and our friends on the following chair soon put them right. Very heated but very satisfying. Didnt ruin our day at all. It was even constructive as the kids recognised the importance of consideration for others on the mountain.
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I linked to the source over on MSS a while back, quoted the entire study - which seems to me to be limited. As I commented there, "There are no comparisons with skiers of other nationalities in this study, and no indication of the speed of progression of the trend towards aggression on the slopes. There is no clue as to the frequency of such incidents in terms of the time each skier questioned spends on the mountain...."
Here is the pdf:
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I get rather pissed off when skiers constantly push into the lifts queues.
But then, I am English!
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moot_point, best learn to put up with it, particularly in Italy.
It would be so nice if everyone behaved like the Scots, Canadians or Americans in this one particular regard. Oh well.
That said, if everyone is chaotic, it makes like easier to get to the front if you're sneaky...when in Rome and all that.
easiski, hadn't really addressed the collision thing had I... I'm not convinced it's slope-rage if some idiot takes you out. Justifiable self defence more like it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| I'm not convinced it's slope-rage if some idiot takes you out. Justifiable self defence more like it. |
Me neither, but I was just wondering how we would have reacted in similar circumstances a generation ago - whether we wouldn't have held back from expressing our instinctive 'rage', or even have felt anger to the same extent as we seem to do nowadays...
On the other hand, maybe it wouldn't have happened a generation ago!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Mrs H-Dub is still very cautious and gets easily spooked when -even obviously competent - skiers shoot past too close. That is inconsiderate and woudnt be tolerated elsewhere in life, ie a Ferrari overtaking down a country lane.
Cautious skiers are often very particular when chosing their line through a constricted space or steeper incline and it doesnt help when the options are reduced by prostrate boarders.
Im big enough and ugly enough to cope with anyone elses bahaviour, but to have a more cautious skiers confidence knocked by inconsiderate behaviour has prompted me to have stern words. If they speak English, on occasions they can get both barrels. Verbals only though.
(Only on one occasion have I ever collided with someone else - always apologise in French!)
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| T-Dub wrote: |
| (Only on one occasion have I ever collided with someone else - always apologise in French!) |
Mais bien sur!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've never exacted snow-rage on anyone but I do think greater mutual respect is required. The attitude that many sliders have is disgraceful. I've always found the real a**h***s to be learner skiers. Without wishing to ressurect the ol' chestnut of skiers v. boarders more respect is needed. Without wishing to turn all moralistic we are a privilaged bunch of people who should be thankful we are fiscally capable to do what we love.
A
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't tend to get annoyed much, but if somebody is queueing behind me on top of my skis I will give them a 'look'. I didn't spend all that money for some idiot to ruin them trying to get a few inches nearer to the lift.
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| Quote: |
Does the data look credible this time?
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Hardly. While the article claims that somewhere around 20-30% of those surveyed said they've felt angry at another snowslider, barely 3% of the surveyed population "reportedly" claim to have actually taken a swing at the offender. Not acceptable behaviour, but not a statistically large number either (more violence goes on behind the matrimonial door of an evening, or on the streets - I'd be more worried about what's happening in the resort after the lifts close). And I don't even want to go near the inherent unreliablity of "reported" behaviour in the context of surveys.
Basically it the article reads much like a hyped up story in search of a basis and I do wish journalism wouldn't encourage such tabloid publishing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| easiski wrote: |
With regard to people hitting me or my group - my piste rage has to be seen to be believed. These people should be arrested, have their lift passes taken away, and be blacklisted by all the TOs. There IS NO EXCUSE for hitting abother skier/boarder unless you were first hit by someone else. If the offending person hits a child ski-ing with me - well .......
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A touch extreme perhaps?
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Oisin Osh Kelly, Why?
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Depends really - Starting my second week of skiing I was almost been taken out by someone who had nearly hit me from above and then cut right in front of me forcing me to swerve and almost hit someone else.
But on another occaision in the same week there was a line of beginners strung right across the piste with no gaps to get through and I had picked a little too much speed up concentrating on carving - so to avoid any risk whatsoever I took a line off piste and crashed 
Learners don't yet have the skills required to make a series of sudden manoeuvers when called upon to do so and can easily be intimidated by fast skiers coming close to them and thus turn into someone elses path.
In the first situation even if I had hit someone I would not have felt myself to blame at all, in the second if I had chosen to ski through the line then I would have been severely neglectful of piste safety.
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David@traxvax, At the risk of sounding rude... and I really don't mean to... but do I really need to spell it out... I think Scarpa's reply comes pretty close.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Oisin Osh Kelly wrote: |
| easiski wrote: |
With regard to people hitting me or my group - my piste rage has to be seen to be believed. These people should be arrested, have their lift passes taken away, and be blacklisted by all the TOs. There IS NO EXCUSE for hitting abother skier/boarder unless you were first hit by someone else. If the offending person hits a child ski-ing with me - well .......
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A touch extreme perhaps? |
Yes, because there are going to be some reasonable excuses aren't they. Additionally, boasting about your piste rage is not very impressive is it?
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Philip Prior, I said I owned up - not boasting. However 30 weeks a year on snow means that I have a much higher percentage chance of being hurt that you do (since you put London for location). How would you react to an adult knocking a child in a lesson with you for six and not even stopping to see if said child is OK? I don't hit them (obviously) but I can swear quite well in all the four languages I speak. I don't know what excuses you can think up for taking someone out on the piste - I can't think of any.
Oisin Osh Kelly, No, I don't think so. You should always ski in control. If you can't stop or turn in time then you're out of control. To ski out of control puts all other mountain users at risk. I'm out there 30 weeks a year - I see many accidents daily, and am usually hit myself about once a fortnight. I pay attention to the rules of the piste, I make sure my students know them, and I make sure they also obey them (at least when they're with me). People having lessons have paid for that, they need to be able to concentrate to get value for their lessons. Now, if they're terrified all the time because of other skiers - which does happen in holiday weeks, then I stand by what I said. Lift passes taken away and holiday ruined. They'd soon get the message.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, I like to think of myself as a considerate Boarder ... yes there are a few of us, I also always try and remain in control and ride terrain that I am comfortable with and feel in control.. whilst maybe just trying to push the envelope a little. I have yet to hit anyone from behind, or from the side for that matter, but there have been occasions where i have come close. Yes the responsibility is mine when approaching other piste users from behind.. but sometimes the ones you are passing make poor decisions, lose control, or are oblivious to thier surroundings. Add in to this the times you can hit unseen ice and lose control.
I think it's safe to assume, that the kind of individuals that you are refering to, are those who are just blantly reckless (skilled or unskilled) and have little regard for anyone else but themselves on the mountain... but it's a bit harsh to say that there is NO excuse for hitting someone behind without either qualifying the type person, be they skier, boarder, blader.. or the circumstances leading up to it. There have been well publicised deaths in the US where the skier/boarder responsible has at least had their day in court. Thankfully those found guilty of recklesness and causing death or injury have been punished accordingly.
I have the utmost respect for a lot of you guy's as you have all put the time in and have a lot knowledge and experience that you share freely on this forum. I myself have only been boarding for 5 years and still have a lot to learn but even i can tell an idiot on the slopes from an inexperienced slider, to those who go by me at such speed, that i nearly jump out of my skin, but are still in control and know what they are doing. I understand what you saying.. but come on leniancy is called for... or perhaps it needs to be worded in a differnt way
If you had found that one of the children you had taught was involved in an incident... knowing they're level and background would you call for them to be banned for life. Do you want to scare new snow users away from skiing just because at the begining they are not sure of themselves and inexperienced . I'm sorry but your comments may be backed up with 30 years of experience.. but you are coming across as very arrogant and eliteist. I would love to live in the mountains for 30 weeks a year.. but I can't... unfortunatley i have to live in london the same as Philip...god life is sooo tough... I am asuming that you are an instructor and i would expect a little more tolerance but I find your statements are actaully very discouraging to people new to snow.
Come on none of us were born with skis, or boards attached. Hands up those of us who have on occasion may have maybe lost control ...have you ever... just a little bit? We have all had to learn somewhere. To outright ban and blacklist somebody from snow for life becuase of an error of judgement or lack of experience... a touch extreme... at the risk of incurring your wrath... which i think i may have already, but your view is extreme or poorly expressed.
How many languages do you speak?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Folks, please, I know we're all getting antsy with the season around the corner but...deep breaths all round, trebles even!
Oisin Osh Kelly, if you take your argument to the extreme (as I'm sure you are not!), one might suggest that learner drivers should be excused responsibility for their actions.
Sure, genuine accidents happen. It is entirely possible (even easy) to catch an edge, make a mistake, etc often on green or blue pistes. We even had a (thankfully innocuous and non-eventful) collision between grown man and small child at the recent Deux Alpes gathering.
As you suggest, there is a qualitative difference between someone genuinely making a mistake and being tolerated - as we've all been there and done it - and someone skiing recklessly. Skiing, boarding, blading, driving without due care and attention are all bad things.
easiski, is an instructor, reliant on her fitness to ski for her livelihood. She is also generous to a fault, deeply enthusiastic about helping other people to get as much as they can out of snow, skiing and the mountains - and tolerant.
I would be amazed if she blasted someone out if there was anything about the situation that suggested the culrpit was NOT being reckless. It's usually, IMHO, obvious whether they are or aren't.
Sure, one needs to push one's envelope sometimes to learn, but not at anyone else's expense. "sometimes the ones you are passing make poor decisions, lose control, or are oblivious to thier surroundings" - it's still your responsibility. See the FIS code. Not only should you ski in enough control that you can stop or turn in time, but you actually should ski/ride/board in enough control that you can take avoiding action when the inevitable happens and someone randomly swerves into your path.
There actually really isn't an excuse - although I did argue hard last season on this forum that it wasn't my fault if someone simply pushed off in front of me.
I do understand your point, as it was exactly the one I was arguing last year. IIRC it just didn't seem to be possible to come up with a set of rules that could be applied fairly beyond the ones that are in place. As far as the legal position goes, there is no excuse for hitting someone from behind.
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Well - all the collisions I've seen have been down to someone speeding too close to people from behind... I've been taken out in that manner myself. There will always be that 1% or so where there are extenuating circumstances but in most cases I'd err towards easiski's anger - especially when kids are put at risk.
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You know it makes sense.
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The main issue is surely inexperience. It's this that causes people to do dumb things- boarders sitting below blind rollers, skiers standing across the piste at the top of any "difficult" pitch. My main pet hates are people standing/sitting in the middle of cat tracks except if they're boarders who have obviously fallen over and those who don't clear the offload area from chairs despite all the signs. As an experienced skier I still got freaked by skiers blindsiding me when I was learning to board, nowadays when I've been run into by learners at MK I don't get too upset as I've generally sensed them coming ( And I must have been stopped or skiing too slowly anyway so I'm partially to blame )
The best near collisions I've had have been tree skiing - I've popped out from behind trees the same time as totally strangers heading in the opposite direction a number of times - fortunately a "sorry dude" usually suffices with the bolder one of us usually getting the choice of line below.
And re Easiskis comments - while I can see no excuse for hitting people in a class I have seen poorly managed classes with a class of 10 to 15 snaking all the way across a piste - in that situation I can see why occasionally individuals might take chances on gaps.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 10-11-05 0:05; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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and when you have bought your drinks, don't stand at the bar move aside 
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Poster: A snowHead
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And move to the side of the loo when zipping up several layers - I may be desperate 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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and don't stand on the stairs down to the toilets 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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boredsurfin 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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got to agree with David Murdoch. i have been skiing for about 20 years (i now feel old) and have never physically hit someone*. i have come close a couple of times and every time i think about it i shudder at my stupidity and lack of responsibility. there are a very small number of situations where someone hitting another skier from above is not at fault but slipping on unseen hard snow or the other skier doing something slightly unexpected are not acceptable excuses IMO. you should always leave an appropriate margin of error
i also think that a skier, while moving, has a certain amount of responsibility not to get in the way of someone coming from above them. this only applies to good skiers who are carving their turns - on a crowded piste i always glance over my shoulder as a go past the fall line to make sure i am not about to veer into someone's line
*edit: i'll get off my moral high ground. just remembered that i had a comedy low speed collision with a mate of mine in acres of off piste with no-one else around. don't feel too bad about that one cos we were both equally stupid and he is big enough for him not to hurt himself - still think my points above are valid tho
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 10-11-05 0:13; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I too have been skiing for 20+ years and never hit any one, felt like hitting someone in a chalet once, but that was after a 12 month old baby had fallen down a stone staircase 
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Scarpa, boredsurfin, gentlemen, please, carry on, this is great!
fatbob, I'm sure you don't and, personally, I never ski through ski classes. Invariably someone gets upset and life's too short. Tree skiing however? It's like grass skiing and brambles. There is an uncanny, non-Newtonian attraction between skiers in trees. Done it myself too many times.
Arno, How old do I feel having been skiing 35 (!) years! I agree, I try and look over my shoulder when doing anything out of line. Also, I try and maintain a very high situational awareness.
One situation that continues to bother me; on the "home run" last year. It was quite late, lifts stopping so piste reasonably empty, but not completely. I'm going down at some pace, nothing in front or to either side when I bank in a sharp turn. As I do I notice a young girl sliding sideways away from me (on the outside of my turn). I stop quickly and check she's OK. She is.
My concern: AFAIam aware, if she was not in front of me, I think I might have hit her for her to appear sideways on to me at the speed I'm going. But I didn't see her or feel an impact. Now, I am assuming I didn't (as at the speed she was diverging from me I would certainly have hurt her) and she was OK - not even upset by her fall. So assuming I didn't hit her, where the heck did she come from???? Please, before anyone jumps down my neck, I was NOT being reckless, I made sure she was OK in case it was my fault in any way and hung around as she skied off in case an irate parent tipped up. Weird, weird, weird.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| And re Easiskis comments - while I can see no excuse for hitting people in a class I have seen poorly managed classes with a class of 10 to 15 snaking all the way across a piste - in that situation I can see why occasionally individuals might take chances on gaps. |
May be so, but that certainly wouldn't apply to Easiski's lessons. Her "Group lessons are for a maximum of 4 people"...
When you get groups snaking down a piste, with a bit of patience it is always possible to judge the right moment to overtake in safety, except on narrow runs. And even then they rarely go right to the edge to turn, so you can normally get past easily there. And if not... well, what's the rush?
David Murdoch, I've seen quite a few people take a fall from fear of someone else hitting them, no more. I try to steer a wide berth, but inevitably the less confident beginners who can barely stand up anyway will suffer from this. That might have been what happened?
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David Murdoch, appeared from nowhere? didn't feel an impact on contact? just a cold chill run through you and her empty gaze? no words did she speak as she faded in the twilight as quietly as she appeared. Only then did you suddenly recall that she was wearing a one-piece day-glo, leather boots and long straights, and that she had appeared at a point on the piste where they had closed a traversing path 30 years earlier after a freak accident involving an unfortunate young girl... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, how bizarre! Were you there?
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| easiski wrote: |
| ...With regard to people hitting me or my group - my piste rage has to be seen to be believed. These people should be arrested, have their lift passes taken away, and be blacklisted by all the TOs. There IS NO EXCUSE for hitting abother skier/boarder unless you were first hit by someone else. If the offending person hits a child ski-ing with me - well ....... |
I prefer wrath and controlled comtempt to rage, but I otherwise completely understand and agree with Easiski on this subject.
First, in support of Easiski, if you are a ski instructor, and you have the chance to watch someone for a second or two before the collision (or near collision), it is usually trivial to distinguish between a more experienced skier (or boarder) being reckless, and a less experienced guest (or even an experienced one) that is momentarily having problems.
In the technical sense of not being able to avoid the skier below them, both types of skiers may be "out of control", but the degree of recklessness (ie, disregard of the possible danger to others) is vastly different, and I treat the two situations very differently. Yes, I do make an on-the-spot decision about this, and thusfar, I have never been wrong (...I'm sure I would have been told if I had...).
The newbie gets my help, a few words of wisdom about slope safety (including their own) and lessons, and is then sent on their way. The reckless person gets my wrath (not rage), albeit in a somewhat different manner what Easiski described. Folks between these two extremes of behavior (e.g., a teen on rentals who has only been on skis for a week bombing a green run in a high-speed, no-turns-possible power wedge) get treated between the two extremes of response.
For the worst of the lot, probably my favorite tactic is to take the fellow aside (yes, it usually is a fellow), and graphically describe to him the bloody bones sticking out through muscle, half of someone's face hanging free, and other carnage I have seen in accidents at similar speeds and circumstances. Pointing out a particular tree on an easy green run at our resort where a 13 y.o. was killed is usually pretty effective. If he responds with any BS (ie, denial of culpability), or anything other than contrition, I ramp it up. For example, if it's a big guy, I will next ask him if he will still feel like a "big guy" or "expert skier" when he looks down at the little girl he just turned to road kill.
I've modeled my ultra-graphic approach on the approach to traffic violators where they make the individual visit emergency rooms, watch movies of the injuries, etc.
The amazing thing is that in my experience, individuals that engage in such reckless behavior are just like bullies in any other context. When confronted by someone "more poweful" than them (ie, me, a big guy in uniform), they completely cave in, whereas I'm sure that if I was smaller and/or out of uniform, they wouldn't.
At the end of last season, a speeder intentionally cut through my class and then tried to outrun me. The story is in this post on Epic. My favorite part of the incident was him repeatedly saying, "I'm sorry ... I'm so sorry ... Can I go now".
Tom/PM
PS - For the record, in 35+ years of skiing, I have never been involved in a collision where there was even the remotest possibility that it could be construed as my fault.
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FAQ
the other time was to an English ski instructor who I saw repeatedly over several days stopping his very large ski class (about 20 kids) right across the piste, after the 3rd day of seeing him do this I told him in no uncertain terms that what he was doing was dangerous and that if he stopped his class he should make sure they were all over to one side of the piste for everyones safety (except I was a bit less polite about it 