I may be limited to only being allowed to do cross country skiing but I don't know the first thing about it.
Please can you enlighten me?
I am going to Les Deux Alpes in April a quick google tells they have 25km of cross country however how likely is that to be available in mid April?
I presume skis used are different than downhill piste skis? What about boots are they the same? How do I go about learning?
Sorry to be so clueless.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 13-11-13 15:57; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
NickyJ,
Super skinny skis that are usually quite long. Mrs M's are about 1.95. The good new is that the boots are really comfortable I've no idea about L2A but most ski schools where XC is available will offer lessons, and as ever they are advisable. Otherwise you will just end up shuffling about aimlessly.
XC comes in 2 flavours, classic and skating. Classic is where you ski along the pre-cut tracks, skating is where you errr skate. Mrs M is a classic skier. That always looks a lot more civilized to me, and probably a bit less like hard work.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My current boots are pretty comfortable, I take it they aren't suitable? I guess it is a good thing I didn't get a new pair. I do enjoy skating - so is skating & classic a different technique?
NickyJ, I'd strongly recommend classic - I think most people start with that. I'd also echo the point about the need for lessons. 25 kms isn't much, but should be more than enough for learning. In Les Saisies the XC trails are at a decent altitude and would normally be open to the end of the season - no idea about LDA but one of the ski schools should be able to enlighten you.
By the way, not all XC skis and boots are equal - longer and thinner equals faster but more difficult. slightly shorter, slightly fatter (but still narrow enough to fit in the tracks) is, IMHO, the way to go. And yes, the boots are really comfortable and both boots and skis are very light. Balance is very tricky though no doubt Mrs M makes it look easy.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
NickyJ, As musher says, the X-C boots are really comfortable (essentially they are like trainers). They clip into a toe binding so that the heel is free. Many years ago whilst I was still an alpine beginner skier I tried X-C. I had 1 to 2hrs instruction in the classic X-C style and then that's all I needed to get underway on my own in the prepared tracks (called a loipe by the way). When you first try classic X-C skiing you are shuffling along and you may think to yourself well this is no quicker than walking. The secret is to put a bit more effort as you push your leg forward so that the ski glides some distance before it stops, in that way you can easily cover a much further distance than you would walking. X-C skiing can be a great cardio-vascular workout (be sure to take some water with you!) but you can take it at whatever pace suits you. On uphill sections you can herringbone up the slope (I'm sure you were taught that in Alpine?) but it starts to get interesting when you encounter a downhill stretch! On short gentle stretches you can just crouch a bit lower and let the skis run, if you find the speed is building up too much then on a gentle downhill bit you can sometimes just drag your ski poles behind you to provide some braking, but on steeper sections you can step out in a half-snowplough with one ski still in the track and the other one braking.
On a nice sunny day gliding through the snow covered woods on a X-C track can be very enjoyable!
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Perhaps you should try telemark?
I'm hghly suspected of surgeons "suggestion" to xc ski. I've just got that "suggestion" from my doctor, but upon further discussion, his view of xc skiing is shuffling along on a track! That's really not going to be very interesting to you!
(I xc ski often and, while the stress on the knee is less, it's not non-existent. And when you're just leaning, it has its own mode of injury that's different from alpine skiing so you really need to figure out what is it you should be staying away from in the first place)
Alpine skiing does put a lot of stress on the knee, simply because the ankle is fixed and knee being the only joint that moves, taking all the balancing requirment over terrain. If your knees could handle x-c skiing, you could probably telemark too.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I will definitely be getting a second opinion - mean time trying to get more info so this is definitely of interest. Thanks for all the info.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
abc wrote:
Perhaps you should try telemark?
I'm hghly suspected of surgeons "suggestion" to xc ski. I've just got that "suggestion" from my doctor, but upon further discussion, his view of xc skiing is shuffling along on a track! That's really not going to be very interesting to you!
(I xc ski often and, while the stress on the knee is less, it's not non-existent. And when you're just leaning, it has its own mode of injury that's different from alpine skiing so you really need to figure out what is it you should be staying away from in the first place)
Alpine skiing does put a lot of stress on the knee, simply because the ankle is fixed and knee being the only joint that moves, taking all the balancing requirment over terrain. If your knees could handle x-c skiing, you could probably telemark too.
Great minds think alike - I've just posted in the other thread that NickyJ might care to investigate Telemark skiing as it's kinder on the knee joint (but a lot harder on the leg muscles!)
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
musher wrote:
most ski schools where XC is available will offer lessons, and as ever they are advisable. Otherwise you will just end up shuffling about aimlessly.
In pre-cut tracks it is basically walking/jogging on skis. Lessons aren't a necessity.
I've done it in Finland where there's mile after mile of track. A lovely peaceful way to get into the forest, good cardio fitness an advantage and nothing at all like downhill skiing.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
dogwatch,
Yes, and downhill skiing is just standing on planks
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Lessons aren't a necessity.
I disagree. First, you need (at least, I did) some tuition in order to start doing that nice long loping gliding stride, using your poles, on the flat or on gentle uphill gradient. http://youtube.com/v/p-UuYAaVKXU I can't do it like him, but an approximation at half the pace. Then there are different steps, with simultaneous pole push, etc etc
And even after a few weeks of lessons, over the years, faced with a steeper gradient where the cut tracks disappear and you have to slow down, my resolve quails.
There's absolutely no point in putting on XC skis and "walking". Our instructor kept saying "ne marchez pas, c'est un sport de glisse". If you just want to walk and enjoy the mountains (and nothing wrong with that) I'd go for snowshoes; you are most unlikely to fall over using snowshoes but I fell a lot learning XC. The first time I fell forward over the tips of my skis the instructor was delighted.
NickyJ, just read your thread title properly for the first time. You planning a snow trek across Hampshire?
But to enjoy XC properly you do need to go to a resort which has some decent tracks, not just flat shuffles in the valley.
This is us on our first lesson, on a gentle downhill section where we are actually going uphill, out of the tracks (only recommended with an instructor!).
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Some people do like to make what it simple and natural into some complicated skill that has to be taught.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
NickyJ wrote:
Thanks all. My assumption has always been that XC tracks tended to be lower hence my concern about availability going late season. Is that true?
AFAIK the L2A cross country is at the bottom, but its some while since I was last there. I can't find it on the piste map. depending when you go in April the chances of it being available are probably low.
Are you fixed to going to L2A? From many more times visiting Alpe d'huez I remember there were a lot of cross country trails starting from the DMC and going around the big bowl, these would have a far higher chance of being open. they were last time I was there in April.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
dogwatch, it's not necessarily natural to everyone
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w wrote:
NickyJ, just read your thread title properly for the first time. You planning a snow trek across Hampshire?
The L2A tracks are in Venosc. Imagine L2A as a U-shaped saddle with a cliff at the end - well Venosc is at the bottom of the cliff. Bubble lift to get down. Tracks at about 800-1000m altitude along the valley floor towards Bourg d'Oisans. Unlikely to be viable in April.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
andyrew wrote:
NickyJ wrote:
Thanks all. My assumption has always been that XC tracks tended to be lower hence my concern about availability going late season. Is that true?
AFAIK the L2A cross country is at the bottom, but its some while since I was last there. I can't find it on the piste map. depending when you go in April the chances of it being available are probably low.
Are you fixed to going to L2A? From many more times visiting Alpe d'huez I remember there were a lot of cross country trails starting from the DMC and going around the big bowl, these would have a far higher chance of being open. they were last time I was there in April.
Yep we booked the holiday before I wrecked my knee.
Some people do like to make what it simple and natural into some complicated skill that has to be taught.
"Simple and natural"? Hmmm...
Oh right! I see why:
dogwatch wrote:
In pre-cut tracks it is basically walking/jogging on skis. Lessons aren't a necessity.
Why do you even need pre-cut tracks? Wouldn't it be just as "simple and natural" to walk/jog around on your walking boots? It'll be just as fast and you wouldn't even need to pay for the track access fee. Wait, you don't even need to hire xc skis!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Does anybody who has actually tried it find skiing down an appreciable gradient, round bends on XC skis in any way "natural" or "simple". It scares the poo-poo out of me
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
NickyJ,
Yoyu may find that you love it. Many years ago I had an injury that precluded alpine skiing so I did x-c for a week. I loved it !
My wife has also taken to it (if anything , more than me) Now we have both alpine and x-c skiing holidays. However many of the x-c trails in the traditional alpine resorts aren't vry inspring and frequently just tend to be trails around the village area at the bottom of the valley. There are many other resorts that are more x-c oriented (e.g. Scandinavia as you would expect, the Jura and Austria) and where the trail systems are far more interesting if you ever fancy taking it further
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
dsoutar, thanks. An ex-colleague who loved XC skiing and used to ski in Norway and Sweden quite a bit. I am more than happy to give it a go but that was part of the info I was after, we chose that resort based on a number of factors and XC skiing wasn't one of them. We got such a good deal for school holiday package inc child are etc that I don't want to have to cancel, my girls are really looking forward to it.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Les Saisies has an excellent XC area - right up with the best of them in the Alps. It starts at 1650m and has 120 kms of piste, a biathlon stade and a nordic park. There are green, blue, red and black trails but dsoutar is right, a lot of the trails in Alpine rsorts are very limited, at the bottom of flat valleys and don't have good snow cover. Like musher I find anything other than a very gentle downhill gradient very scary. Even on the flat it's a great workout if you do it right - like the guy in my video above. I suspect anyone who thinks it's easy and you don't need lessons has just shuffled round flat trails.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I've done a fair bit, both skating and not.
Most people seem to just pick it up; if you don't feel you will then lessons may help. My personal experience in going out with first-time snowboarders and alpine skiers (albeit experts in those fields) is that they can all just get on and go.u.
I've mostly only been out in untracked, generally deepish powder in BC, in which conditions you can't jog and walking without snow shoes would be very hard. In Finland I've ridden bashed icy tracks, you can go faster for less effort, that's about it. Downhill sections are the tricky bit. I'm not sure what the official approach is supposed to be, but I would start with gentle ones and play around with what you can do.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
pam w wrote:
I suspect anyone who thinks it's easy and you don't need lessons has just shuffled round flat trails.
Not so. Neither "shuffled" nor "flat". I would however admit that in my attempts at gliding, I have been overtaken by skating Finnish grandmothers who looked like they had been doing it for 60 years.
Is it really so hard to look at what others do and copy them?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Is it really so hard to look at what others do and copy them?
well I found I learnt more quickly, and enjoyed myself more, with an instructor. I know there are people who teach themselves - there are lots of people who teach themselves downhill skiing, or French, or sailing, too. But I like good instruction! Depends how you are made, I suppose. Certainly somebody starting XC skiing with a significant injury would be well advised, in my view, to take lessons. As with downhill skiing, an instructor can help keep you out of trouble. For example, our instructor would sometimes tell us to stay in the tracks, on a downhill curving section, because it flattened out, out of sight. Other times we were warned that we should get out of the tracks and snowplough (the demi-chasse neige, where you just lift one ski out of the tracks, only works on fairly gentle gradients). He also chose sensible sections for us to practice stepping out of, and back into, the tracks and did some fun exercises - e.g. looking backwards to should whether he had his hand up or down, to help us with balance. And chose the right gentle downhill curving stretch to try to do the little turning steps ("try" being the operative word, for me). You could do all those things on your own, but, quite frankly, I probably wouldn't have done. I would have just kept on pottering.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
we became fairly effecient after about 5 or 6 pints and 30 minutes, it really isnt that difficult. going down hills is good fun though
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I personally am very much like pam w, but hubby is always happy to watch others and replicate.
My Physio has said she doesn't agree with the consultant and so there is still hope
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
NickyJ wrote:
I personally am very much like pam w, but hubby is always happy to watch others and replicate.
I've said it to many of people and will repeat myself again here: the trick about x-c skiing isn't about the kick nor the push with the pole, it's about the glide. Most people wobble sideways, just enough to produce enough resistance to shorten the glide significantly! (I've been working on that myself for ages but still could use a lot of improvement, that's when growing up doing it really helps: lots of mileage and natural balance from young age)
In the worst case, some people can't balance on one single ski, so they put the other foot down wayimmediately, ended up jogging with skis on!
That's not something you'll noticed easily by watching someone glide effortlessly by...
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 14-11-13 16:24; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
dogwatch wrote:
Is it really so hard to look at what others do and copy them?
Well, did you try to watch and copy those Finnish grandmothers? How well did it work out?
NickyJ, I would not agree with your surgeon's recommendation either as it is incredibly easy to fall and twist the knee if the skis remain stuck in the tracks. Skating is not recommended for those with compromised knees in any way shape or form either as it puts a lot of stresses through the knee. My physio is ski instructor (with his own ski school) and he had me on a flat circuit for building up strength, but forbade me from going out on any of the more adventurous trails due to the risk of injury during the steep and often icy descents. Try to imagine snow ploughing while your one of your skis is in the classic grooves, the other is doing all the braking, your heel is free and your skis are only about 4 cms wide (with no metal edges) and 1/2 centimetres thick under your heel. It is possible and it is fun, but take instruction so that your technique is correct from the start, not a mish-mash of adaptations from your downhill skiing skills.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
abc, the more advanced class, when we did our lessons, were only using one ski - practising extending the glide. We weren't that advanced and were allowed a ski on both feet.
pam w, I signed up in a series of classes when I was living in Michigan (where a lot of Scandinavians live). The very first class the instructor made us took off one of our skis!
We had to glide our way to the other side of the football field on one single skis! Needless to say, the result was rather comical at first!
And just when we finally got the hang of it and thought we were doing well, repeat on our "weaker side" foot. Oh, what entertainment! (for bystanders, had there been any)
I've skied a bit on my own before signing up for that lesson series. The revealation from that first class was night and day! Personally, I think it's best to start a learner with a single ski glide, so there's less chance of the learner picking up bad habit of two-footed skiing. Though I can see in a resort, where the learner may only come for a single lesson, that strategy might not work too well.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
abc wrote:
dogwatch wrote:
Is it really so hard to look at what others do and copy them?
Well, did you try to watch and copy those Finnish grandmothers? How well did it work out?
I've been working on skating, as a matter of fact, and it's coming along. Thank you for your interest in my progress.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Finnish story coming up...
I lived in Finland and the locals were rather surprised that I could ski and skate and ride: they hadn't realized we had dry slopes and ice rinks over here, it seemed. One of my UK business colleagues tried to learn cross-country skiing in Helsinki. The kiddies there would stand around and laugh at him as he struggled to keep on his feet, something he thought odd as Finnish people are extremely polite generally. After a while he worked it out... he was an adult and he couldn't stand up on his skis, so he was obviously drunk in the middle of the day.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I've no idea about L2A but most ski schools where XC is available will offer lessons, and as ever they are advisable. Otherwise you will just end up shuffling about aimlessly.
On short gentle stretches you can just crouch a bit lower and let the skis run, if you find the speed is building up too much then on a gentle downhill bit you can sometimes just drag your ski poles behind you to provide some braking, but on steeper sections you can step out in a half-snowplough with one ski still in the track and the other one braking.
Then there are different steps, with simultaneous pole push, etc etc
