 Poster: A snowHead
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I've seen many a mention in ski reviews and probably on here that these amazing wide powder skis could carve fine on piste.
Now I'll admit I can just about carve a sub 80mm ski, but cannot a > 100mm ski
Who (mere mortals and not ski gods) can carve a >100mm ski and more importantly got any video of you doing it?
Cheers,
Greg
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What skis have you tried it on? Waist width is only going to be one factor in how easy a ski is going to be to carve. Reverse-reverse ski and you have pretty much no chance of holding an edge on piste unless its really soft, you can in soft snow obviously. Ski something traditionally shaped and as long as you can get the ski on edge (still reasonably easy) and pressure it (doesn't particularly change) why do you think you wouldn't be able to carve it?
Sadly I only have POV which is obviously not that useful for seeing whats going on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| Now I'll admit I can just about carve a sub 80mm ski, but cannot a > 100mm ski |
It can be done.
But you are correct in saying that mere mortals will struggle to make a pure & clean "carved turn" on a 100mm wide ski.
I certainly struggle.
On wider skis...
1) you need to make bigger angles to get wide skis over on their edge.
2) you have less edge control as your foot is no longer directly above the edge.
3) slower edge to edge transition between turns.
Even an 80mm ski is quite hard to "carve" compared to a 63mm race ski with side cut.
However there is much more to skiing than just carving (a 100mm ski can happily be skied well on piste between the fun stuff!)
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 25-10-13 11:32; edited 3 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Who (mere mortals and not ski gods) can carve a >100mm ski and more importantly got any video of you doing it?
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Yes, can do it. No not got any video of it. More importantly, I'm not actually very good.
The main issue for me is that I need to be really hauling it with the Lhasas (35m radius) before carving becomes an option. JJs (think 14m or something like that) are much, much easier to carve. What skis are you on?
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kitenski, I think learning to link clean carved turns is significantly more difficult on skis wider than 80mm. The biggest problem I see with people trying to develop that skill is they are impatient at the start of the turn and push the ski sideways, not engaging the skis' edges until fairly close to the fall line rather than the moment when the turn starts. A wider ski (or a ski with a large turn radius) seems to exacerbate that problem. As an experiment I once ran a carving clinic skiing on skis 88mm under foot. At the speed that my clients were comfortable to ski at (on a gentle blue piste) I found it incredibly difficult to demo slow speed, cleanly linked carved turns. I did occur to me at the time that if I found it difficult just how demanding would it be for skiers who are trying to develop that skill?
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^ yip : a pure carved turn should follow the natural turn radius of the ski.
the aim is to be using edge control, rather than rotation in order to turn the ski.
if you have a wider ski + minimal sidecut (as on most off piste skis!) then this becomes much harder to do without skidding.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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this is my point, lots of folk seem to say "these off piste skis track like demons on piste"
I'm being very skeptical about if average Joe can do such a thing....or indeed folk that "think" they are carving their 110mm skis are actually doing so...
I tried in on my Lhasas, it's not so bad in end of day Easter slush, in harder snow I ran out of width of piste!!
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Long turns on my 189 Preachers - yes.
Short turns - no chance!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kitenski, look at the lateral angles that skier is making. Few recreational skiers have that level of skill, and I can't imagine anyone who is learning to carve cleanly linked turns would ever manage that.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| kitenski, look at the lateral angles that skier is making. Few recreational skiers have that level of skill, and I can't imagine anyone who is learning to carve cleanly linked turns would ever manage that. |
I think that is my point 
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| kitenski, look at the lateral angles that skier is making. Few recreational skiers have that level of skill, and I can't imagine anyone who is learning to carve cleanly linked turns would ever manage that. |
+1
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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If you tip any ski over, they'll carve, I wouldn't say any ski over 100mm that I've skied carves well though. My off piste skis over the summer were 193 Cochises, 108mm underfoot and with a radius of about 30m, very carveable on soft snow, tricky when it's hard. Don't have any piste photos on them, because if I was skiing on piste, I was on SL or GS skis, but here's a shot of me carving them in some crud 
Skied with a guy called Marcus Caston who after wrecking his regular skis raced on a dynafit set up (cochises or bonafides can't remember) and still beat a bunch of ex FIS racers and demo team instructors on GS skis in our weekly race.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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meh, I think what is being debated here is not whether skiers get on to a sufficiently large edge angle at some point in the turn to use the shape of the ski to steer the turn, but whether they only do that for the entire length of the turn, starting from the moment the turn begins to the point at which you tip the skis in to the next turn. Difficult to determine that from still images.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jimmer wrote: |
| here's a shot of me |
Great shot!
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| Quote: |
aha, found something
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yep seen the D11 one before, so in my ignorance then what is the definition of a carved turn? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| livetoski wrote: |
| Quote: |
aha, found something
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yep seen the D11 one before, so in my ignorance then what is the definition of a carved turn? |
For me the simplest definition of a carved turn is one where the tail of the ski follows the track of the tip, leaving a clean line as a track. If you have a wider line, you've pivoted a little.
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| livetoski wrote: |
| yep seen the D11 one before, so in my ignorance then what is the definition of a carved turn? |
For me it is the absence of any steering by twisting the ski or by pushing it sideways (usually at the start of the turn). It is just an edge change and nothing else, and the skier can modify the turn shape by increasing or decreasing the amount of edge angle they use. If a skier changes direction suddenly without creating huge edge angles it is unlikely that they will be cleanly linking carved turns.
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rob@rar, yeah I get that but that's the only image I have of me skiing from the whole of last season and it happens to be carving on fat skis so is the only evidence I have to offer.
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jimmer, yep sort of what I thought, when I looked back up the race track there were some pretty impressive train tracks all the way down from my skis no skiiding or pivots, except the one turn on the lip where I deliberately got a huge angle on them and dragged the inside hand
WHOOPS  should have said 5.40 at 5.20 I was still side piste LOL
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
folk that "think" they are carving their 110mm skis
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I suspect that a lot of folk who "think" they are carving their 78mm skis aren't, either. When I look at my tracks I invariably think "o, sod it". And that's on an easy blue piste. On a red piste I wouldn't bother looking.
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livetoski, ok, I see the ones you mean, hard to tell much from POV, but it was soft snow, and the flyswatters actually have quite a tight turn radius, so I wouldn't doubt you could make railroad tracks there.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w, I see very few skiers who make cleanly linked carved turns. When I do I tend to stop and watch them because I find it such a joy to see people ski like that. Very rare to see it on anything much steeper than a proper blue piste or a gentle red.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If the definition is a BASI "pure carve" as Rob defines above it's pretty hard but not impossible to eliminate all other bits of movement. Can you tip a wide ski over and get a big edge angle? Pretty easily - livetoski's Flyswatters are almost insanely tippable to large angles. On a wide but conventional ski (say a Preacher) as touchguru says you need a lot of space to "carve" on a low effective edge heavily rockered 5 point design I suspect its easier (at least it feels easier but then I'm not checking how bad my "carve" is.
People with race backgrounds can carve anything - I've seen guys just casually skiing full range GS turns on big ass Atomics etc. Rahlves pretty much carves mogul fields.
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| Quote: |
much steeper than a proper blue piste or a gentle red.
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yep have to agree carving down a black run frightens the poo poo out of me
rob@rar, hopefully in the future when my lad has his ACL reconstructed we can go have a laugh watching him flat out down a black run, I can't keep up with him any more, but its going to be 2014 2015 season before he back on skis
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You know it makes sense.
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livetoski, I once asked a friend of mine who is an ex-racer (sub-30 FIS points, a few podiums at FIS races including at least one top step) if he could carve on a black run. His answer was very rarely, maybe with slalom skis and it wasn't too steep a black run. I can just about carve on a moderate red run providing it is not too narrow, there are few people around and I've taken a brave pill in the morning. Not a hope of me carving on a black piste.
Here's a long radius demo which I think are reasonably clean, linked carved turns.
https://vimeo.com/77778911
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I used to think I could carve properly on my old HSFR's (104mm) on wide open blues/mild reds.
But that's on how it felt to me. I think I can carve slightly steeper slopes on slalom/GSy piste skis.
I may be deluding myself though. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, I'm surprised your friend can't carve down blacks, how long ago did he have 30 points? And how steep are blacks in Europe anyway? Are they all winch catted?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jimmer, recently quit racing, sub-30 two or three seasons ago. Not all blacks are winch-catted, in fact few are.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you are a good skier and can already carve turns then it is quite easy to adapt your technique to carve turns on greens/blues with wider skis. You will go quite quick though and not very good for learning on!
Never skied on reverse cambered or reverse side-cut skis but I imagine that it would be harder to carve on these skis.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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kitenski, If you can carve a 250mm waist snowboard you can carve a 100mm ski . . . it's just technique and practice . . . my teleboard is 180mm waisted and that carves like a demon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, hence my asking for video evidence as I don't believe many folk can actually do carving as well in the real world as they can in the bar/on snowheads 
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Masque, Yes................but with aren't a snowboard you do have all your weight centred over the single item and that must surely help to some extent with the flex of the and therefore the carve. As has been mentioned on here previously if you depressed any of these pieces of shaped equipment or probably even straighter skis to some extent at the middle surely the curve will lend itself to a turn by physics alone and from the turn comes the carve. I would have thought to weight of snowboarder over the single piece of plank (even if it was wider) makes the flexion of the snowboard easier than with a ski which by design must have less weight in the middle of each.
Errr................does that make sense - I know what I am trying to say does anyone else?
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To be honest, I have no idea how many of my turns are carved. It could be anywhere from 0% to 90%. (Closer to 0% I suspect) 
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If it's anything like a carving lesson on PSB last year, 0% would be pretty close tbh.
Going in pairs, and analysing what you see your partner doing, almost every single person had a stem initiation in there, a skid and probably exactly as rob@rar said, impatience.
Never skied more than 85mm before, so can't comment, but I can only imagine it'd be a struggle.
Where I would comment though is, is there a need or want to get to pure carve on piste on such wide skis designed for use off-piste? I'd certainly accept a compromise when taking a ski on to terrain that's not really what they were designed for.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| andy wrote: |
| Where I would comment though is, is there a need or want to get to pure carve on piste on such wide skis designed for use off-piste? I'd certainly accept a compromise when taking a ski on to terrain that's not really what they were designed for. |
This. You don't buy a dog and expect it to purr, although being able to vary how you initiate a turn (from rotationally dominate through to edge dominant, and all points in between) should be an ambition for all skiers.
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My point was (from my fading memory) reviews and sometimes snowheads enthuse about how their wide skis "carve fine" on piste....
I suspect they don't! and I think this thread confirms it! (full time ski instructors excluded!!)
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