I'll be flying out for my 3rd ski trip this February and as title suggest would like a little advice on how to ski in deeper snow. Now I'm not talking waist deep powder, more between ankle and knee deep snow found at the side of piste. I'm a pretty confident skier on piste and don't get deterred by much, but as soon as I venture into deeper stuff I find myself out of control. The only way I can describe it is that I feel like my skis are attached to an imaginary railway line and I have to fight extremely hard in order to change direction in the slightest..... I've tried leaning back a little and keeping my feet closer together but even that doesn't seem to help a great deal.... Does anyone have some advice?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
tomb, at the risk of sounding very boring...... get a lesson. I have had some lessons to learn to ski "la poudreuse" and we spent the first half of the lesson on-piste, learning to turn in the way needed - because until you can do it on piste you have no chance of doing it off piste. I am still pretty hopeless - going to spend a week at it in January on an introductory course - but improving slowly. It's great when it goes well for half a dozen turns!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Don't lean back! It's a myth.
Don't fight it. All your movements need to be more subtle, or the snow acts like a brake against your ski and you fall over. I try and focus, not on my skis, but feeling the soles of my feet evenly against the soles of my boots (staying balanced) and pressuring both into turns.
Don't try to hurry (though some speed is your friend), complete your turns.
Am a total amateur myself tho, am sure there are others here who can be more technical.
I used to feel exactly as you do. I then did a weeks (4 half days and 1 full day) off piste course in chamonix last year. Amazing, wasn't too expensive and learnt to ski off piste properly. Last day we were waste deep in powder and I've never experienced anything so good in my life. Take a lesson otherwise it will always be a struggle. Also, I realise that the year before we were messing around off piste and looking back, we shouldn't have been where we were as it looked a bit dodgy in terms of avalanches.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
You use the same basic skills off-piste as you do on-piste, but you need to make some adjustments. In particular you can't twist your skis in snow as easily as you can on snow. You therefore need to do something different to create the turns: use more pressure to bend the ski and make sure you tip it sideways so it will turn. Everything is more difficult off-piste, so make sure that your basic skills are strong. Turn shape (rounded, linked turns) are essential if you are to make the transition to off-piste skiing.
I find there is deep snow and then there is deep snow. Pure crystalline, icy, cold and therefore dry, virgin icing sugar powder snow, is completely different to a foot of damp unbashed spring snow. I've skied both on piste to about a foot deep. The former is a complete hoot and doesn't present half the problems that the latter does. From your description which I recognise I think you are talking more about the latter type - you may have not skied the former yet. The latter I fully share your misgivings with, if you ever get the chance to ski the former - even if it is just a chance to ski it as night under floodlights, on the last night when you should be packing then don't miss it!!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Sorry Robrar but that's pretty much how not to ski powder which I think is what the OP means, although off piste can mean ice. Turns in powder must be two footed, i.e. no unweighting of one ski as you do on piste, as soon as you put more weight on one ski in powder it goes down while the other stays up causing you to fall spectacularly. You don't twist your skis, the turn initiation comes from bending ze knees! No bend no turn! Once you can ski on powder its actually easier than skiing on piste, and I don't ski on piste if I can help it, preferring to venture off away from the crowds.
Leaning back accelerates you forward which makes beginners in powder fall over as they often panic. It is a technique used by more advanced skiers to get through more low angled powder and maintain speed.
I would recommend reading and watching instructional dvd's and trying to understand exactly what you are trying to do as you will then start to think about it and work it out for yourself. I think it's all about time on snow, but a good instructor could help obviously, but it's expensive.
A wider ski helps, there's no reason to ski much less than 90 underfoot nowadays, unless your a beginner, modern skis that wide will ski really well on hard snow nowadays, but are easier in powder due to the increased flotation.
If your in Morzine this season I'll give you a free lesson!
After all it is free
After all it is free
tomb,
As Megamum, says there is a world of difference between snow types.
My tips are:
Relax, then relax some more
Balance more equal weight on both feet
Don't over turn, deep snow slows you down.
Have a lesson off piste
Have a nice tune in your head, not headphones
Have fun
If all else fails and I am sure lots of Snowheads are expecting me to say this, get some FAT skis
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
nevis1003, I'll give a fuller reply later as I'm just about to give a ski lesson, but in the meantime perhaps you could point out where I said you needed to be outside ski dominant?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar, I think you should take up the offer of the lesson.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Snowplough, if it's deep no one will notice.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And just be happy falling over lots. It's all part of learning
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
What is bending ze knees doing if it's not changing the pressureon the skis?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Enormously fat skis and baggy clothing are de rigeur needless to say
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
That reply was going to be more cheeky but then I remembered I am under your tutelage on Monday.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thanks for the info guys....
pam w, will hopefully get a lesson this holiday.
Perty, thanks
Jonesj, would love to do a dedicated intro course into off piste... I'm 30 next year so I'm hoping my wife will let me do the ucpa course in chamonix next season.
rob@rar, with regards to basic skill.... I have regular access to a dry slope on which I practice basic skills. Obviously I can't recreate deeper snow on a dry slope but are there any drills I should be working on specifically? Also is it just a case of turning with more force whilst in deeper snow?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I reckon its partly a confidence thing, I get a little distrustful when I can't see what's there and probably stiffen up and lean back a bit.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
nevis1003, thanks for your input... You mention dvd/video instruction, did you have a particular did in mind?
Sorry Robrar but that's pretty much how not to ski powder
yeah, what do you know about skiing?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Must be time to catch up with Rocket and Lucy again.. "Do you know how fat my skis are?? I don't rock 1.20 underfoot to ski some wind-scoured crap-fest... I dance with the man in the white coat..!!"
tomb, the feeling you're describing sounds a lot like you're trying to twist the skis round which won't work very well without a fair bit of momentum in anything other than the lightest of powder. I'd second the guys above and say get some instruction as it'll move you on much faster as well as probably introducing you to some places you wouldn't have otherwise ventured.
In general terms though its pretty much like skiing on piste but needing a bit more patience in the turn and realising this is okay because you aren't going to go shooting off thanks to the braking effect of the snow.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 12-11-13 12:02; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
finestgreen, nevis1003,
Quote:
bending ze knees doing if it's not changing the pressureon the skis?
Bending ze knees will, a) reduce the pressure on the skis, and b) move your weight backward along the length of the ski. a) is useful b) is not.
Bending ze knees, and ankle, and hips, will let you regulate the pressure on the ski whilst remaining more centred over the ski.
tomb,
Whilst waiting for rob@rar, ... On the dryslope practise making nice, round arcs with your skis --- 2 or 3 or more mats wide. Keep both skis on the matting, and take a longer time to start the turn using slower inputs to the ski.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Always use the off-piste runs underneath the chairlifts to practise – this seems to help you concentrate a bit more
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
tomb Get lessons. Everybody learns better and faster from an instructor than from a well intentioned friend. It definitely helps to practise the basic off-piste turn technique on piste first, with a trained eye helping you to get it right. A dedicated off-piste instruction holiday is a great idea. I have done three now, and made massive advances. You could check out the SCGB Freshtracks ones as well as UCPA and others.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
nevis1003 wrote:
Sorry Robrar but that's pretty much how not to ski powder which I think is what the OP means, although off piste can mean ice. Turns in powder must be two footed, i.e. no unweighting of one ski as you do on piste, as soon as you put more weight on one ski in powder it goes down while the other stays up causing you to fall spectacularly.
No, that's how we skied powder in '99!
OP, rather depends what skis you're on. If skinny piste skis, then Nevis1003's technique is probably you're best option. Keep skis close together to create a single platform, working and turning them together. Active legs (lots of flex and extension) will help to 'un-weight' the skis a bit at the start of the turn, resulting in less resistance as you pivot them into the new turn. Build up momentum and rhythm and it will be easier.
With modern wider skis there's less need for old school bouncy wriggly turns, you can keep the skis wider apart and weight the downhill one more, like you would onpiste - though you should still be skiing with more equal wighting than you would onpiste. Movements are rather more subtle in powder; don't rush things.
Don't lean back too much, but if you're on short skinny skis in heavy deep snow, you should be thinking about weight going down through your heel rather than ball of foot/front of boot as normal. Yeah that's not the ideal and everyone will say 'no you shouldn't lean back at all,' but being realistic, in some situations staying forward will only ever result in the tips submarining and you going over the handle bars. I doubt there's a single person anywhere who, despite what they tell you (and what they think they do), actually stays on the front of the boots all the time in all situations.
Hard to say anymore without seeing video of how you ski at the moment though.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
tomb, get a snowboard . . . done
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
as well as probably introducing you to some places you wouldn't have otherwise ventured
I found this very useful - it was an area where I ski a lot and the instructor found one place, between pistes but with the right kind of gradient for me, where it would be safe for me to go on my own. Other places we went he advised me not to go on my own. It's not an avalanche prone area, on the whole, but he also pointed out some features, such as a wind-loaded slope (and I've forgotten the French name for it, I should have written it down immediately) so that I could start to learn a bit about how to look at the terrain. It was very enjoyable, though I did find it knackering.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
tiffin wrote:
rob@rar, I think you should take up the offer of the lesson.
tiffin,
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Masque wrote:
tomb, get a snowboard . . . done
This.
Was deeply annoyed to be left behind by my snowboarding buddy in the end of season off-piste Chamonix slush last year, while I sunk, floundered and got stuck by not keeping enough momentum up. Hmph.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Harry Flashman wrote:
tiffin wrote:
rob@rar, I think you should take up the offer of the lesson.
tiffin,
That had me chuckling, too
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
tiffin wrote:
rob@rar, I think you should take up the offer of the lesson.
My thoughts entirely. See you on Monday, m'dear, we can watch each other's backs, in case he gets stroppy!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Pedantica, Looking forward to it
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
nevis1003 wrote:
You don't twist your skis, the turn initiation comes from bending ze knees! No bend no turn!
I'd love an explanation of how, exactly, bending the knees initiates a turn.
nevis1003 wrote:
A wider ski helps, there's no reason to ski much less than 90 underfoot nowadays, unless your a beginner, modern skis that wide will ski really well on hard snow nowadays, but are easier in powder due to the increased flotation.
A much debated topic on snowHeads, with a range of opinions
nevis1003 wrote:
If your in Morzine this season I'll give you a free lesson!
That's a kind offer, and while I am in Morzine for three weeks this season I'm afraid I won't be able to take advantage of your help as I have a full programme while I'm there. Hope you have a great season.
Hi Tomb,
It's a while since i taught anybody, but had a quick look on U tube and this video is good in the powder section http://youtube.com/v/tG6lK7Su5HE&list=PL07A6AFBAFE60CE8F
maybe somebody can post it up, I'm a bit of a Luddite. I note the guy emphasises keeping your skis together.
Rob rar yes you can have a lesson to, but you know what they say those can't …teach...
Does it actually snow in snow domes by the way?
Of course the real answer is that you have to attack it with confidence. Then after about 100m when you need to turn, fall over in a spectacular faceplant. Then find your skis and spend an hour crawling out back to the piste.
Then ski off on the groomed piste where the sensible people live.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
clarky999 wrote:
Don't lean back too much, but if you're on short skinny skis in heavy deep snow, you should be thinking about weight going down through your heel rather than ball of foot/front of boot as normal. Yeah that's not the ideal and everyone will say 'no you shouldn't lean back at all...
I think pushing through the heel is great advice if you are using pressure control as a major part of shaping the turn. The trouble with using fat skis and (relatively) big edge angles is that the speed can often be intimidating to inexperienced skiers, especially if they are not strong at using the end of the turn well to control their velocity. I think a more 'traditional' approach where you use pressure much more through the apex and the end of the turn does, at least, have the advantage of keeping the sped in check.
After all it is free
After all it is free
nevis1003 wrote:
Rob rar yes you can have a lesson to, but you know what they say those can't …teach...
Does it actually snow in snow domes by the way?
Sure, I've heard that lots. You should hear what we say about those that can't teach...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
It really does depend on how deep the snow is. For much powder skiing, the technique is very similar to on-piste skiing: use progressive, rhythmic movements and focus more on pressure and tipping than on twisting. Twisting is often a precursor to a fall in deeper snow unless you're using rockered skis that allow you to easily smear your turns.
My preferred approach is to build a bit of a pressure-based rhythm, pressing down in the middle of the turn and allowing a bit of a rebound at the transition. This is "old school," I suppose, but I enjoy the feeling of it, so I do it a lot. You can also use tipping, which instead of using the edge (like it does on-piste) uses the bottom of the ski to redirect the path.
More than anything, though, it's about slower, more deliberate movement. And don't twist.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
nevis1003 wrote:
Rob rar yes you can have a lesson to, but you know what they say those can't …teach...
Does it actually snow in snow domes by the way?
Sure, I've heard that lots. You should hear what we say about those that can't teach...
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
then don't miss it!!
