Just done a one day bumps clinic with Lee Townend of Snoworks at Chill Factor and the one aspect I need to work on is narrowing my stance in the bumps. I don't seem to have a problem skiing with my feet closer together outside the bumps, but get the inside ski gets deflected big time in them.
Anyone got any drill suggestions for helping develop this? I wondered about using a length of bungy cord looped between my knees and maybe another between the ankles but this might be a bit dangerous.
Love to hear any suggestions and guidance you might be able to give.
Thanks
A
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
abd, I've actually witnessed the bungy cord being used on willing participants in a training session before, and it seemed to help some get the idea of using the legs and feet as one unit. Think a bit of caution is useful though...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hard to say without seeing you ski abd, but you can try tieing your ski boots together with the power strap and start with slow rotary turns on a gentle slope working both your skis together and then increasing the speed of your turns as you become more proficient. You will soon know if one ski moves away from the other
abd, as well as putting the skis together you should be trying to get weight on them both too; that will help with deflection.
You could practice pivot turns, trying to turn without any forward movement at all. If you don't weight and steer both skis then you'll "lose" one.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Narrower stance doesnt mean locking the feet together. They might appear to be working as one unit but the feet/skis still should be independent of each other. Learning to ski really well on one ski is good practise for this.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 18-10-13 13:08; edited 1 time in total
One of my Youtube favourites! Love the skiing in that clip!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Ski lots of pow on skinnyish skis?
Is it not just a mental cue - think one platform/two edges rather than two/four. Do a couple of bump laps on a snowboard or monoski first?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
what works for me is to try and have my inside thighs and knees touching so that I can feel it as I am skiing the bumps....especially at the start...
Some euromincing is a good fun drill as well
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
kitenski wrote:
Some euromincing is a good fun drill as well
Well you might call it a drill some call it guilty pleasure...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I too have trouble narrowing my stance when the terrain requires it. I think I have a biomechanical issue (an old excuse, I know) because, if I ski fast and straight with a narrow stance, I feel a physical force in the hip area acting to separate my feet to about shoulder width. Resisting it for a long period is quite tiring, and I tend to lose the discipline if I'm knocked a little off balance (there may be a mental comfort-factor issue there as well).
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Dolphin turns
nice vid.
I think I'm going to break myself though. Bumps is top of my list for things to do in December.
Had a bumps intro on PSB last year, but there weren't any bumps to play on, so most of it was closer stance, get the legs working together, as above. And also skiing like John Wayne as a demo of why you don't do bumps like that.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Dolphin turns are harder to do than he made it look.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
Dolphin turns are harder to do than he made it look
that was my conclusion, watching that video.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Stance width is a funny thing. On a couple of indoor lessons/coaching sessions I've had in the I've been told to widen my stance for a more modern stance/better efficiency, yet out in the real world I ski much wider. I put it down to feelings of claustrophobia (as well as old skool hangups)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
pam w wrote:
Quote:
Dolphin turns are harder to do than he made it look
that was my conclusion, watching that video.
Very droll!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Put the "learn to ski with your legs together"book between your thighs, and don't drop it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mosha Marc, Yes all weekend and Monday I think
After all it is free
After all it is free
Why do you want feet closer together in bumps? Answer: if feet are wide then they can be different sides of a bump or just hitting each bump at different times causing loss of balance, whereas if they are closer then they are closer to doing the same thing which is much easier to control.
If you stand with feet close together and weight even, then someone pushes to your left then your left foot will move to the left to stop you falling over resulting in wide feet. If you anticipate the push to the left and shift your weight onto left foot so that you can push back to the right then you can keep feet still. Having your feet too wide in the bumps is normally a result of not commiting enough weight onto the outside big toe quick enough as you start each turn. One of my favourite drills for this is to ski on the 'flats' lifting the tail of each inside ski, and touching the inside heel to the top of the outside boot (i.e. right heel to top of left boot). By top of the boot I really just mean above the ankle. I think I should come up with a name for this drill. Any suggestions?
Another drill is the 'magnet drill'. What you do is attach very strong magnets to the inside of each boot (make sure you get the polarity correct!) so that the boots can slide against each other but can't be moved apart. That way you can maintain indepedent feet but with the stance width locked. Alternatively you can just imagine that you have 2 magnets!
I never use dolphin turns for moguls training, and in 8 years of World Cup moguls I never saw any athlete using them for training. The problem is the first part where the weight comes back onto the tails. However if you just take the second part of a dolphin turn where the weight comes forward then you have a useful drill. To build these up, start off standing still on skis. Get someone to lift your ski tip just off the ground and then shift your weight forward to try and push their hand back down. You will use this movement as you go over the bumps to try and keep the tips down. To continue practicing on the 'flats', jump the tails of the skis off the ground as you start each turn. I call these 'phin turns' which is a name that I just made up but sure you can all see why.
I'll be teaching in Meribel again this winter if anyone wants bumps training there.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
simon_bates, you raced world cup moguls for 8 years? Or coached? Impressive either way.
With the dolphin turn, why do you feel allowing your weight to move back is a bad thing? Without letting your feet move in front of you how you can absorb the mogul?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
kitenski, Excellent
You going over. I quite fancy Monday night.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
jimmer wrote:
simon_bates, you raced world cup moguls for 8 years? Or coached? Impressive either way.
With the dolphin turn, why do you feel allowing your weight to move back is a bad thing? Without letting your feet move in front of you how you can absorb the mogul?
I competed World Cup moguls. Shared a coach with Jenn Heil up until 2006 when she won the Olympic gold (for Canada).
Try squatting down, then lift your toes and ball of foot. Does that feel balanced? Now try lifting your heels so that you are on your toes/ball of foot, again while in a squat. Does that feel more or less balanced? Now try both again but this time stand and squat quickly while keeping either your toes off the ground or keeping your heels off the ground. Which one works and which one makes you fall over? (If you didn't fall over then you weren't moving up and down fast enough) I could tell you but it's so much better if you feel the answer.
Have my questions helped you to answer your questions? If not then let me know what still needs clarified. I might even answer something directly.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
simon_bates,
I'm not a great bump skier but try.
Are you saying that the weight should remain on the balls of the feet at all times even if the skis are tipped back to follow the bump (tipped back riding up the bump and tipped forward on the other side trying to maintain contact). I take it weight on the heels in serious bumps would send you off into orbit
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
simon_bates wrote:
One of my favourite drills for this is to ski on the 'flats' lifting the tail of each inside ski, and touching the inside heel to the top of the outside boot (i.e. right heel to top of left boot). By top of the boot I really just mean above the ankle. I think I should come up with a name for this drill. Any suggestions?
DB, Can't be the same thing at all - javelin involving crossing the non-used ski i.e. consciously ensuring you are skiing on one ski - not the best basis for encuraging using 2 skis as one.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DB, your weight can go forward beyond tips of toes as you go through trough onto the bump. This will help with keeping the front of the skis in contact with the snow, giving you control. If the weight goes onto the heels or further back then you can lose contact and 'wheelie', amongst other things like you've mentioned, so I don't suggest it.
As for javelin turns, then similar to the static demo but without crossing skis, and you can lift the tail more which might press the tip into the ground. In his moving demo the ski tips are well off the ground so not helping weight forwards. The reason for crossing ski tips in a javelin turn is for situations where you want the hips to turn to the outside of the turn. This exercise is very different to my exercise, which is designed to have independent feet with weight committed to outside ski, with narrow stance and weight forwards, all in one drill.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
One of my favourite drills for this is to ski on the 'flats' lifting the tail of each inside ski, and touching the inside heel to the top of the outside boot
Like it... Gonna name it the "nicked from Simon" drill
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
[quote="skimottaret"]
Quote:
Like it... Gonna name it the "nicked from Simon" drill
You're welcome, but I will shout "hey, that's my drill!" anytime I see you doing it next winter! Unless I bump into you when not working and am then doing a run with you.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
simon_bates,
I'm not a Harald Harb fanatic but do remember the Americans on Epicski discussing his Phantom Foot move many moons ago - is this the sort of drill you mean?
DB, that's the idea but lift the tail of ski higher, and do touch the boots together, and do it in turns that are as tight as the bumps you plan to ski. Maybe start in wider turns or just straight running/traversing to practise the movement. The basic version would be putting a foot down then lifting the new foot, so both feet meet when they are on the snow. For a more advanced version, hop from one foot to another so that the feet pass midway between being up or down. Does that make sense? It will be a lot more dynamic and energetic at this point. Anything along these lines will probably be good for your skiing, even if what you are thinking is not exactly the same as what I'm thinking. For this and other drills a demo would be so much better than words, but I'm busy teaching driving over the summer rather than up the local plastic slope. Maybe in the winter I might get round to it...if I do get it put up online then I guess it would be an advert for me.
One of my favourite drills for this is to ski on the 'flats' lifting the tail of each inside ski, and touching the inside heel to the top of the outside boot
Like it... Gonna name it the "nicked from Simon" drill
If I do/ see this being used in a few weeks I'll let you know for the royalties Simon
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
kitenski wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
Quote:
One of my favourite drills for this is to ski on the 'flats' lifting the tail of each inside ski, and touching the inside heel to the top of the outside boot
Like it... Gonna name it the "nicked from Simon" drill
If I do/ see this being used in a few weeks I'll let you know for the royalties Simon
I don't think this is patentable unfortunately, as Andy Bennet had me doing these in Cervina in August. There was no name for them though, so maybe you can claim naming rights simon_bates
PS. Great drill for getting onto the new outside ski with extension!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Andy Bennett and I have trained together several times many years ago, so I'm not surprised if he has similar ideas to me.
Elston, that's pretty much the drill that I was describing. The demo could be improved, as the performer is pushing the outside foot away from them at the end of the turns (0:49), leading to the stance widening again, rather than just standing over the outside foot. Therefore this person would have difficulty trying the harder version of hopping from one foot to the other, although that could also be a good way for them to develop their balance and mainain the narrower stance at the end of the turns. It looks like this is an athlete who has been given the drill by their coach, and I think the coach has them working in the right way. Putting a foot down before lifting the new foot is what you do when walking, so it's a case of asking the athlete to do the jogging or running version of it.
DB, that's a pretty good video from Warren Smith on bumps, and I agreed with it right up until he said 'strong poleplant'. Some of his older videos were good but had a couple of things that reflected 'ski instructor knowledge' rather than 'mogul competitor knowledge' (although still better than many other instructors) but since he's employed former mogul competitors like Andy Bennett, it seems like the technical knowledge has improved. That's meant to sound like I'm complimenting his team rather than dissing him! Anyway, if your poleplant is on the front (uphill) side of the bump then your hand is pushed up and back at the same time as you are trying to absorb and move forwards, and this is where the pole will normally plant on a 'strong' poleplant. Delay the poleplant until after the crest and it won't upset the upper body so much. This is a common mistake amongst ski instructors who see good mogul skiers plant on the front of bumps so they think it is a good thing, whereas it is better to plant on the back of the bump. I often make the same mistake and still ski fine, but I do ski better when I don't. Back to the good bit of the video, pulling the feet back answers jimmer's question "Without letting your feet move in front of you how you can absorb the mogul?" and you can do exactly the same thing by moving the body forward. Whether you think feet back or body forward doesn't matter as they both achieve the same thing. It just means that instructors can pretend they are showing you 2 things and charge you for twice as long...no wait, I mean it's better to keep the student practicing and to try both to see if one works better in their head and tailor the lessons to the student! The video probably also proves that a demo is often much more useful than written descriptions; "Don't tell me, show me".
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
simon_bates,
Thanks - I've always wondered where the correct position for the pole plant is.
I've heard it said that a skier should back pedal with both feet in the bumps but wondered at what point of the bump they should be fore / back of centre.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
