 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There's a possibility that the ski could be too soft, but there's also aspects of your technique which could cause or contribute to it.
The judder is caused by the ski sliding sideways and alternately catching and releasing it's 'bite' on the snow.
Try making the turn rounder so the ski is moving forwards, rather than sideways, especially when initiating the turn. Use the turn shape to control speed, and if you need to skid, then try a little less edge angle so it doesn't bite as aggressively initially.
This is my opinion, however, and is worth exactly what you've paid for it. I'm sure a more qualified SH will be along shortly to shoot it down in flames 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I take it you mean they judder sideways? (laterally) There may be a number of reasons for this. Possible ones are; overloading the new outside ski too quickly creating pressure you can't manage; COM dropping too far inside the turn and onto the inside ski providing insufficient pressure to find the necessary grip; upper body rotation; poor fore/aft balance. It might be easier if you could give a little more detail as to how the problem develops and better still if you have footage of yourself. Equipment may be contributing but I think it is more likely to be a preominantly technical issue.
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Sounds like you are not managing the pressure, especially towards the final third of the turn. Solutions:
1. Slow down (but that's dull)
2. Allow the skis to skid a bit by flattening them ever so slightly (sensible technique for steep terrain for most skiers)
3. Tip the skis on to their edges more, to enable them to grip more (fine for moderate terrain, but be aware the speed will increase)
Juddering often happens because people get tense and stiffen their legs. Use your natural suspension (by flexing ankles, knees and waist) and you'll get more control.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Skid, As well as thinking about your technique, trying different ski's will not do any harm and could improve your awareness of what's going on under your feet. Each ski will ski differently and being able to feel those differences will help you.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Interesting - I've occasionally had judder when hard fast "carving" on high angle groomers. Thinking about it it has usually been on specific skis around 112mm in waist. Think I posted a thread about it a couple of years ago.
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Increasing the edge angle in isolation won't necessarily address this issue. It may be part of the solution but only in conjunction with accurate lateral and fore/ aft balance.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ade57 wrote: |
| It may be part of the solution but only in conjunction with accurate lateral and fore/ aft balance. |
Sure, everything needs to be in balance, otherwise you fall over.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Ade57 wrote: |
| It may be part of the solution but only in conjunction with accurate lateral and fore/ aft balance. |
Sure, everything needs to be in balance, otherwise you fall over. |
LOL
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FWIW I don't recall getting my judder last winter. Either this means I've gone super-smoov or more likely have just got slower/skiddier.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thigh burn too?
used to get that and judder. I think in my case it was skiing skiddier, and fighting the slope/gravity, definitely the tensed up legs that rob@rar mentioned.
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rob@rar, A bit dismissive as I was refering to addressing the issues I mentioned earlier in the thread i.e. that problems and thus solutions are rarely one dimensional e.g. tilt more!
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You know it makes sense.
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Ade57, not dismissive, sorry if you think I was. I gave three possible solutions, not just one, all of which require changes to body management in order to make the different solutions work. My intention was to provide an answer which I believe addresses the most common cause of judder, and to keep it simple because, not least, I've not seen the OP ski. Therefore the changes to body management are implied in my answer, not detailed. I simply wouldn't be able to provide a detailed answer without seeing them ski, preferably with my own eyes rather than video.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, I was referring to you quoting my post
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Ade57 wrote: |
| rob@rar, I was referring to you quoting my post |
What was incorrect about my reply to your post? As I said, I'm not in a position to be able to comment on the OP's lateral or fore/aft balance as I've not seem them ski. You might have seen them ski so you can give them a more detailed reply, but as it is all I can say that any changes you need to make must be accompanied by appropriate balance otherwise you fall over. That's nothing more than stating the obvious, surely?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm surprised you struggle to understand. I too was trying to give hime some help which I believe may well be valid. Unlike you I haven't seen him ski and therefore don't have that advantage. I wouldn't dream of questioning the validity or relevance of your comments. I was simply refering to the comment 'Sure, everything needs to be in balance, otherwise you fall over,' which isn't necessarily understood by skiers as I'm sure like me you see a lot of balance issues impeding progress and it's not simply a case of whether they fall over or not. That's all I meant.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ade57, well, all I can say it that I was not trying to be dismissive. Simply stating a point which I believe to be obvious, and in the absence of any knowledge of how the OP skis I tried to keep my contribution as simple as possible.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ade57, Someone's not reading rob@rar's posts. He said he hadn't seen him ski either.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Unlike you I haven't seen him ski
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rob@rar said
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I've not seen the OP ski
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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feef, The point is the same regardless but I'll leave it at that as there is clearly a misunderstanding of the point I'm making.
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...anyway, what was the question.
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Skid,
How steep are the slopes you are skiing?
Does the judder happen in every turn or only once you have picked up speed?
Does the judder happen at the end of the turn while you are trying to scrub off speed?
Does it occur to both skis or just the outside ski?
When the skis judder do you press harder / weight the skis more or flex to relieve the pressure?
I sometimes experience ski judder on steeper slopes. Concentrating on getting the shoulders parallel to slope tends to cure it for me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Skid, Start with your own suspension . . . the stiffer and more tense you are in trying to 'perform' the worse you will do so. The less you 'push' and the more you 'absorb' the surface irregularities the more sure and continuous your skis will be in contact with the snow. This is an essential to allow you to improve your techniques and really ramp up your skills acquisition and progression.
RELAX!!! let your skis follow the snow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My own experience suggests excess pressure on inadequately edged skis... little to do with shock absorption...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB,
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| 3(a) - Edge and pressure should happen simultaneously - not one before the other, in either order. |
This could run for a few pages here
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You know it makes sense.
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We usually have instructors for three days as a group so I'll see how it goes. Nice link by the way 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Skid,
Sounds similar to a problem I had many years ago. You haven't mentioned chattering when your're beating fast down a flattish red at speed. Does this also happen when skiing fats downhill?
I'd suggest a trip to Spyder Jon at ski tuning. sounds like your natural balance point may be a tad towards the rear. IF you can't get up to Nottingham, I'd sugegst if you have moveable bindings, to move them forward a notch (say 5mm) both front and rear on each ski. This may help you initiate the turn and gain more control ove your tips/mor pressure. Bear in mind each ski manufacturer sets their ski's up for "their" average skier. Everyone is different and certainly not avergae. The balance point established for one ski manufacturer may and ofetn does differ from others. Imagine buying a car with a fixed drivers seat without any adjustment at all. Most people would hate it, but somewhat bizzarely do not question it when it comes to ski's
I usually have my own bindings set around 8mm forward to compensate me back towards average, and it works on most skis, Blizzards, Head, Atomic, Salomon, Dynastar.
I beleive Jon uses the Cambell balancer, a really simple exercise which transormed my skiing and enabled me to embrace new skis with more enthusuasm and an open mind.
Appreciate more updates on your progress and solution please.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Sounds like you are not managing the pressure, especially towards the final third of the turn. Solutions:
1. Slow down (but that's dull)
2. Allow the skis to skid a bit by flattening them ever so slightly (sensible technique for steep terrain for most skiers)
3. Tip the skis on to their edges more, to enable them to grip more (fine for moderate terrain, but be aware the speed will increase)
Juddering often happens because people get tense and stiffen their legs. Use your natural suspension (by flexing ankles, knees and waist) and you'll get more control. |
100% this.
Although skis that are soft can cause this, I personally I have always found stiffer skis a to be real handful (especially when it is steeper and quite firm) for judder. Definitely technique related, and to a lessor extent, a familiarity thing... but honestly I would always go with softer skis for a ski unless you have a genuinely good reason to do otherwise. I am exaggerating somewhat but clearly buying a race ski whn you can barely ski parallel is a very poor choice!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Skid, Both rob@rar, and to a limited extent DB, have it right. Ignore the equipment obsessed, my nomads haven't seen a file or stone on six years and it's only on very early morning crust and glacial ice that I feel even remotely terrified. Whilst it's lovely to have edges you can shave with and having borrowed Ronald's GS race skis at the last eosb I can really appreciate that instantaneous and unlimited grip that will make you feel like a GOD! . . . they will also when used in softer conditions, spit you into a 20m glide path and landing that'll have you still wincing when reaching for a pint 6 months later 
Yes bits of us hurt like hell all the time but ultimately the only limitation to our ability on snow is our basic fitness and muscle response (which can be aided with moderate . . . but not recommended application of alcohol)
I'm also old and boogered . . . it gets harder every year but it really is not how perfect the equipment but how prepared you are to use it.
Juddering is caused by inappropriate and/or inaccurate application of pressure to the ski(s). Until you have personal control of that you cannot finesse edge angles and/or ski flex.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Masque wrote: |
Juddering is caused by inappropriate and/or inaccurate application of pressure to the ski(s). Until you have personal control of that you cannot finesse edge angles and/or ski flex. |
+1
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, I think with me it was definitely being late and aggressive in the turn so I can imagine it would happen quite a lot for racers. I do think kit comes into it a bit but only at the margin i.e. I suspect a well tuned GS ski will be less likely to judder than a pow ski with edges like a blunt spoon but it shouldn't be the solution.
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fatbob, if a common cause of juddering comes from too much pressure which ski is likely to be more of a handful in this respect: a really sharp/grippy/narrow ski, or a fat ski with blunt edges?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've heard it said that ski racers (GS & DH) put on the pressure even earlier in the turn and let it go earlier resulting in an inverted J.
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Of course waist steering can result in different edge angles and too much pressure on either ski resulting in one ski sliding and one ski experiencing judder.
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FAQ
) it could be that I need more advanced skis with less flex.
