 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| Since when was risk reduction/management not part of the debate? |
It is. But if you read BertIsfantastic's post he says:
"There is nothing I can do to help the bit of your brain that has been damaged in a head injury but I can try and reduce the impact of the significant rise in intracranial pressure that occurs through cerebral oedema, mass effect of blood, hypoxia, hypercarbia and reduction of cerebral metabolic rate. The bit that was injured initially is toast though. The only way to protect that is through primary prevention ie wearing helmets."
That last sentence is tosh. As I explained in my post the vast majority of prevention is through your own actions. An helmet is in no way the primary prevention. It's like chip pan fires. The answer wasn't for everybody to have a fire blanket in the kitchen.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Page 7.... yay 
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 4-10-13 15:38; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Layne wrote: |
| That last sentence is tosh. |
To be fair, what do you expect? He's only a consultant anaesthesiologist dealing with patients with brain injury, and you're, er, a bloke on the internet.
To take you seriously for a moment, I assume the bit you object to is this: 'The only way to protect that is through primary prevention ie wearing helmets.'
Sure, that's an exaggeration - the only way to avoid ski-related head injury is to go on holiday to the Algarve - but I think we can take it as read that he means once you have lost your balance and are heading downwards toward the ice or rocks.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Layne wrote: |
That last sentence is tosh. As I explained in my post the vast majority of prevention is through your own actions. An helmet is in no way the primary prevention. It's like chip pan fires. The answer wasn't for everybody to have a fire blanket in the kitchen. |
That reads like you're still suffering from a brain injury.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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What I said was:
The only way to protect that is through primary prevention ie wearing helmets."
There are other parts to primary prevention too, and perhaps I should have said that. Such as not skiing like a tool, controlling your speed, sticking to appropriate terrain. Wearing a helmet aids in that. I don't wear a helmet when I cycle or ski because I think I'm going to fall off on every journey, I wear one because Ocaisionally other people aren't quite so careful or downright dangerous. There are also things completely out of my control and mechanical failure, my ineptitude, or sheer bad luck may conspire to ruin my day. There is a concept in risk management called the Swiss cheese model. This states that there are several layers of protection, each with a whole in. In order for disaster to occur the wholes must all line up perfectly. To my mind, adding a extra layer in the way reduces the chance of a significant head injury.
I fully accept that the number of really serious head injuries are relatively low and the risk is small. However the consequences may be significant and life changing, not just the person with the mashed up brain. The degree of risk I'm prepared to accept may be lower than others, partly because I'm not a hugely experienced skier, partly because I'm a relatively cautious bloke and mainly because I get to see firsthand the effect of traumatic brain injury.
Sadly I'm not a consultant yet. Still a registrar.
Bert
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| To be fair, what do you expect? He's only a consultant anaesthesiologist dealing with patients with brain injury, and you're, er, a bloke on the internet. |
To be fair he is just the guy who knocks you out before you have an operation whilst I am a bloke who has been skiing for 22 years and have read a lot about the cause of ski injuries and what can be done to prevent them
| Quote: |
To take you seriously for a moment, I assume the bit you object to is this: 'The only way to protect that is through primary prevention ie wearing helmets.'
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I object to that and the fact that the rest of the post added nothing to the debate. Telling me that my skull is not hard as iron and can be damaged in a fall or collision is something I am sure we are all quite aware of.
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Sure, that's an exaggeration - the only way to avoid ski-related head injury is to go on holiday to the Algarve - but I think we can take it as read that he means once you have lost your balance and are heading downwards toward the ice or rocks. |
It wasn't an exagerration, it was just plain wrong and consequently grossly misleading. It makes light of all the other actions you take to prevent an accident and it also fails to highlight that should an accident occur it may not save you - as in, if you ski into a rock wall or off a cliff.
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As to the OPs point that helmet manufacturers are using dubious stats to sell more helmets, why an earth is anyone surprised by this. Of course they are. They are trying to make a profit. Lots of research is not quality and some of itis fundamentally flawed. Things that appear in peer reviewed journals are often trashed by others with research that contradicts this. It is important to look at who is likely to benefit and take what they say with a pinch of salt. Buying a new helmet every 2 years if it's only been worn for 2weeks seems daft. Buying a new one if it's been worn and abused every day for two seasons seems sensible.
Bert
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BertIsfantastic,
Thanks for the considered reply and not taking it personally (as it wasn't meant to be personal). Ironically I now think we are broadly in agreement. By using the word primary you were, in my eyes, indicating that it was the main way of preventing injury. That is what I was objecting to. And I do think with the increased usage of helmets that the main methods of preventing injury have been sidelined.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Layne - it is a popular misconception that anaesthetists just knock people out before operations, although that is a significant portion of the workload. The vast majority of critical care ie looking after the sickest people in hospital whether in resus, itu or theatres is done by anaesthetists. If I were critically ill and needed someone to keep me alive then I'd pick an anaesthetist.
Bert
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Sorry perhaps I should have said in head injury terms there is the primary injury ie smacking your head against a rock and secondary injury from rises in INtracranial pressure and low tissue oxygen levels. Primary prevention refers to stopping the injury in the first place and the majority of this is education and training along side safety equipment. Having a helmet in no ways mitigates for lacking in other areas. All should be taught.
There is is always going to be the "I'm wearing a helmet therefore I'm invincible" brigade who won't mitigate their risk in other ways such as not skiing like dicks but sadly that's life.
Bert
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| BertIsfantastic wrote: |
| As to the OPs point that helmet manufacturers are using dubious stats to sell more helmets, why an earth is anyone surprised by this. |
Well, let's go back to it. The article "Why You Need a New Helmet" on the OutsideOnline.com site ... included ...
"... helmets should be replaced every two to three years ... built-in Skullcandy headphones in the Smith Gage ... now the science and technology behind them ... protect against serious brain trauma ..."
According to the page it was written by Kade Krichko. The site is impressively large, based on the print magazine Outside, which has been established since 1978. It claims ...
"The mission of Outside is to inspire active participation in the world outside through award-winning coverage of ... gear and apparel ... Outside Online slips the bonds of print, so we can offer you a wealth of information in a variety of forms that you can't get anywhere but online ... "
Source: http://www.outsideonline.com/contact-us/contact-us.html
Given the multiple layers of editorial control shown on that page, I'm wondering how an article of that quality got to be published. Helmet advice is a very important issue in skiing.
BertIsfantastic, I'm surprised by the article because it seems to amount to a writer simply taking dictation ['helmet hype'] from the helmet industry. That's not how journalism is supposed to work!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
To be fair he is just the guy who knocks you out before you have an operation whilst I am a bloke who has been skiing for 22 years and have read a lot about the cause of ski injuries and what can be done to prevent them |
I've been skiing for 30 years, and I've read more. Do I win?
More seriously, one of the guys I ski with on boys' trips each year is a neurosurgeon - quite a famous one, always in the papers, treats a lot of boxers.
He's been skiing for 40 years and I absolutely guarantee you he has read more of the literature than both of us, put together; he's written a fair bit of it.
He'd tell you that there's absolutely no doubt that helmets are a major factor in the severity of head injuries once you've lost control.
Obviously - like, painfully obviously - the main defence against suffering head injuries while skiing is not to ski (as I said re going to the Algarve - where you are more likely to drown or die from heatstroke).
The second line of defence is not to lose control; sadly, literally none of us can guarantee that s/he will never lose control, for the reasons outlined above.
My mate would equally defend your right to ski without a lid; in the long run it's more bunce for him, after all.
He's got shares in companies making wheelchairs and incontinence pads, too.
(They're sick bastids, doctors.)
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There is a significant degree of advertising going on, but magazines need advertising to survive. It's not a brilliantly written article at all but it does raise an important point:
Helmets are single crash and should replaced after a decent smash.
The same goes for cycle and motorcycle helmets. If it stops someone trying to squeeze another season out of a knackered helmet rather than spending £50 on a new one then maybe that's a good thing.
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You know it makes sense.
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So from these seven pages of the usual rubbish we learn that:
- hitting your head can be bad for you
- people who make helmets want to sell more helmets
- journalists on magazines have been known to write a lot of b0llocks culled from press releases
- Mr Goldbore doesn't wear a helmet
So that was a worthwhile exercise wasn't it. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lizzard, that should tide us over until at least the new year. Merry New Season Everyone!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I suppose you could always just not read this thread, or any others dealing with the oddly exercising topic of helmets, Lizzard?
You can apply reductio ad absurdum to most things on the net.
Coffee and boredom, I blame.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Lizzard wrote: |
So from these seven pages of the usual rubbish we learn that:
- hitting your head can be bad for you
- people who make helmets want to sell more helmets
- journalists on magazines have been known to write a lot of b0llocks culled from press releases
- Mr Goldbore doesn't wear a helmet
So that was a worthwhile exercise wasn't it. |
- Lizzard is still with us, enthusiastically pontificating, on the 7th page
- Helmets need changing every 3 pages
- Vikings wore helmets but regularly died of head injuries
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Helmets are single crash and should replaced after a decent smash.
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The problem is I suppose that there is no specific definition of "decent smash", and as quoted on a previous thread, the ISSS report around testing 'pre-conditioned' as in damaged to some extent doesn't clarify that either. So if we choose to wear a helmet, how do we know if it is damaged?. Which I suspect leads into the we will take it out of the hands of specifics and generalise, ie replace after a set period, as opposed to 'review, check, test' and replace if required.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Oh, last season I was standing next to a lift queue. I heard a noise and look up to see a snowboard fly past about 5 feet from me at head height. A rescue was taking place approx 250m above me of a boarder with injuries and one of the stretcher guys had knocked it from where it was laying. It had picked up speed and then went airborne over a small wall of pushed up snow. Try predicting that one. Admittedly it is not very often I see a close call with head injuries.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Avalanche Poodle wrote: |
| Oh, last season I was standing next to a lift queue. I heard a noise and look up to see a snowboard fly past about 5 feet from me at head height. A rescue was taking place approx 250m above me of a boarder with injuries and one of the stretcher guys had knocked it from where it was laying. It had picked up speed and then went airborne over a small wall of pushed up snow. Try predicting that one. Admittedly it is not very often I see a close call with head injuries. |
That's a good example, I got taken out by a loose ski in selva in 1998, fortunately it got me in the ski, so apart from ending up on my back bottom and a fooked ski I escaped. In your example the likely scenario (human nature) would probably have meant you or someone else turning around and catching the board square in the face. What benefit would the helmet have provided in that instance?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
BertIsfantastic Layne - it is a popular misconception that anaesthetists just knock people out before operations, although that is a significant portion of the workload. The vast majority of critical care ie looking after the sickest people in hospital whether in resus, itu or theatres is done by anaesthetists. If I were critically ill and needed someone to keep me alive then I'd pick an anaesthetist.
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Understood. I was being a bit facetious. It was northernsoulboys fault - he wasn't taking me seriously 
northernsoulboy, what BertIsfantastic, said here was exactly my point:
| Quote: |
| Primary prevention refers to stopping the injury in the first place and the majority of this is education and training along side safety equipment. Having a helmet in no ways mitigates for lacking in other areas. All should be taught. |
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| ansta1 wrote: |
| Avalanche Poodle wrote: |
| Oh, last season I was standing next to a lift queue. I heard a noise and look up to see a snowboard fly past about 5 feet from me at head height. A rescue was taking place approx 250m above me of a boarder with injuries and one of the stretcher guys had knocked it from where it was laying. It had picked up speed and then went airborne over a small wall of pushed up snow. Try predicting that one. Admittedly it is not very often I see a close call with head injuries. |
That's a good example, I got taken out by a loose ski in selva in 1998, fortunately it got me in the ski, so apart from ending up on my back bottom and a fooked ski I escaped. In your example the likely scenario (human nature) would probably have meant you or someone else turning around and catching the board square in the face. What benefit would the helmet have provided in that instance? |
Eh? Wearing gloves wouldn't have prevented a facial injury either, but you still wear them.
Using the example of an injury that a helmet is not designed to help protect against is hardly a reason to say they don't offer any protection.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
So from these seven pages of the usual rubbish we learn that:
- hitting your head can be bad for you
- people who make helmets want to sell more helmets
- journalists on magazines have been known to write a lot of b0llocks culled from press releases
- Mr Goldbore doesn't wear a helmet
So that was a worthwhile exercise wasn't it. |
- Lizzard is still with us, enthusiastically pontificating, on the 7th page
- Helmets need changing every 3 pages
- Vikings wore helmets but regularly died of head injuries |
But more would have died had they not worn helmets. The rest just got away with minor or serious injuries where it would have been fatal without a helmet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Think about it this way.... if you had were asked to do a short talk about safety and accident prevention on the slopes at what point would you mention helmets.
First, second, third...?
Page 8 beckons...
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 4-10-13 15:39; edited 2 times in total
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Understanding the treatment of head injuries is one thing but frankly it is utterly irrelevant as to whether or not I should wear a lid. I do not ski particularly aggressively or quickly and I eschew jumps. All this points to the fact that my risk of head injury from skiing is miniscule, far smaller than my risk from head injury when driving for instance. Understanding the treatment of head injury is frankly utterly irrelevant to my decision.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| feef wrote: |
| ansta1 wrote: |
| Avalanche Poodle wrote: |
| Oh, last season I was standing next to a lift queue. I heard a noise and look up to see a snowboard fly past about 5 feet from me at head height. A rescue was taking place approx 250m above me of a boarder with injuries and one of the stretcher guys had knocked it from where it was laying. It had picked up speed and then went airborne over a small wall of pushed up snow. Try predicting that one. Admittedly it is not very often I see a close call with head injuries. |
That's a good example, I got taken out by a loose ski in selva in 1998, fortunately it got me in the ski, so apart from ending up on my back bottom and a fooked ski I escaped. In your example the likely scenario (human nature) would probably have meant you or someone else turning around and catching the board square in the face. What benefit would the helmet have provided in that instance? |
Eh? Wearing gloves wouldn't have prevented a facial injury either, but you still wear them.
Using the example of an injury that a helmet is not designed to help protect against is hardly a reason to say they don't offer any protection. |
I never have or would say that helmets don't offer protection. But using an extremely unlikely scenario to suggest one must wear a helmet isn't justification either. Plus we wear gloves because of the temperature primarily don't we?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 4-10-13 15:31; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We at 8 pages yet?
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I am with ansta1 on this one*. Let's keep it real.
*That's twice in a week... I'm off for a lie down... maybe it's all those knocks I've taken while out skiing..
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
We at 8 pages yet?
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No
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 4-10-13 15:38; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Layne wrote: |
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We at 8 pages yet?
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No |
oh.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In an effort to get this to 8 pages...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Layne wrote: |
| northernsoulboy, what BertIsfantastic, said here was exactly my point: |
Yes, I read that a bit differently.
What really happened was, you told him he had 'added nothing' and was 'talking tosh', and he explained, fairly patiently, to you that he agreed with the fantatically trivial point that a helmet won't necessarily save you from injury if you ski like a d-ck.
Yes, we know, and we all agree.
But this is a straw man.
The point is, you can ski like Roger Moore and the unexpected can take you out.
In those circs, you're better off with something protective wrapped round your swede than not.
But as I've repeatedly said, wear one, don't wear one, I couldn't care less.
I just enjoy these threads 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Avalanche Poodle wrote: |
| Oh, last season I was standing next to a lift queue. I heard a noise and look up to see a snowboard fly past about 5 feet from me at head height. A rescue was taking place approx 250m above me of a boarder with injuries and one of the stretcher guys had knocked it from where it was laying. It had picked up speed and then went airborne over a small wall of pushed up snow. Try predicting that one. Admittedly it is not very often I see a close call with head injuries. |
Landing at Heathrow with Air France once the aircraft veered suddenly to the left and several overhead lockers opened and bags fell out onto those sat below, myself included. Luckily it was only a soft bag that hit me and not someone's duty free or overloaded wheely case, which could have been nasty. Should I use this equally rare occurance as an example of why I should wear my helmet on the plane?
....although on reflection it would help with hand luggage restrictions if I did wear one
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Whitters, 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Landing at Heathrow with Air France once the aircraft veered suddenly to the left
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At the exact moment M. Hollande was elected?
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| feef wrote: |
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
So from these seven pages of the usual rubbish we learn that:
- hitting your head can be bad for you
- people who make helmets want to sell more helmets
- journalists on magazines have been known to write a lot of b0llocks culled from press releases
- Mr Goldbore doesn't wear a helmet
So that was a worthwhile exercise wasn't it. |
- Lizzard is still with us, enthusiastically pontificating, on the 7th page
- Helmets need changing every 3 pages
- Vikings wore helmets but regularly died of head injuries |
But more would have died had they not worn helmets. The rest just got away with minor or serious injuries where it would have been fatal without a helmet. |
..but did they change them every third pillage?
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| Whitters wrote: |
| Avalanche Poodle wrote: |
| Oh, last season I was standing next to a lift queue. I heard a noise and look up to see a snowboard fly past about 5 feet from me at head height. A rescue was taking place approx 250m above me of a boarder with injuries and one of the stretcher guys had knocked it from where it was laying. It had picked up speed and then went airborne over a small wall of pushed up snow. Try predicting that one. Admittedly it is not very often I see a close call with head injuries. |
Landing at Heathrow with Air France once the aircraft veered suddenly to the left and several overhead lockers opened and bags fell out onto those sat below, myself included. Luckily it was only a soft bag that hit me and not someone's duty free or overloaded wheely case, which could have been nasty. Should I use this equally rare occurance as an example of why I should wear my helmet on the plane?
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Very weak, fallacious argument.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The original point or the reply?
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Your'e an accident prone bunch you lot!, if it's not you that's had your life saved by a helmet, had a head injury then you have seen / know someone that's come to greif!.
In 27 years of skiing / about 70 weeks on skis,
I have had zero injuries that would have been prevented by a helmet
I have seen one minor injury that might have been prevented by a helmet
I have never met anyone that has had life changing head injury, neck injury, yes.
I fancied the early season offpiste bash but you lot are too risky to be around!!! 
Are we on page 8 yet?
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FAQ
