Just booked our friends apartment in Andorra for 1/2 term, Mrs T didn't want to drive this time so we looked into flights,
fuel to airport & parking ~£100
Flights for 4 £980
Transfers to Soldeu £250
Total £1330
total travel time ~11hrs
Car (Ford S-max)
fuel, £250 -£300 (depends on how fast we drive) 2000 mile round trip 36 - 45 mpg
tolls, £120
tunnel, free on Tesco vouchers
total ~£400
But! we travel light and can bring 6 month supply of wine back from France, saving up to £400 based on £10 saving per 3l box of wine (125 kg, no problem for this car) not to mention a few litres of spirits from Andorra.
Total cost, potentially £0
Total travel time with breaks ~ 20 hrs (Pick kids up from school in Whitby, 5 hrs to tunnel, 2 hrs check in and crossing, 13 hrs overnight to Soldeu)
It's a gruelling drive that we have done about 15 times now but there's a lot Mrs T can do with £1300! and I've grown to really hate airports!.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I hate airports, but hate driving overnight with the kids on board in the winter even more.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
tangowaggon, you need also to add insurance, breakdown cover, winterisation of your vehicle, maintenance, food for the journey and depreciation. That last point can be significant - every extra 1000 miles driven will reduce the resale value of your car and you can work out how much by looking at something like Parker's guide. I'd suggest £200 for maintenance and depreciation.
It's still a lot cheaper than flying, though. We always drive to the Alps in the summer but prefer to find a hotel than drive overnight. Even that's cheaper than flying and hiring a suitable vehicle - and, in my view, much more pleasant, too.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
tangowaggon, Do you really drink nearly 5 litres of wine a week..............
After all it is free
After all it is free
Frosty the Snowman, I found driving overnight when my son was young the easiest way to the Alpes. Load every thing into the car about 19:00 and set off. My Son would sleep from the end of the drive to Albertville. Actually he still does, day or night.
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Quote:
How about driving but to somewhere closer than Soldeu? Sun 29 Sep, 13
Yes but we can't get an apartment for £300 in half term week!!!!,
From a safety point of view, overnight with the kids has it's issues but the roads are virtually deserted so less risk from other drivers, As far as the journey is concerned overnight is best for the kids as they sleep most of the way and we get peace and quiet, the built in DVD player takes care of the rest!
the car insurance and breakdown cover include europe anyway, the car is already winterised, we run all season tyres year round, the journey is 1700 miles more than we would normally drive in a week so, yes there is some cost for wear and tear / servicing. At 7 yrs old / 130000 miles on the clock, the car is not worth much anyway
Quote:
tangowaggon, Do you really drink nearly 5 litres of wine a week..............
Erm, no, make that a years supply for Mrs T and me as well as friends.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
carroz wrote:
tangowaggon, Do you really drink nearly 5 litres of wine a week..............
Exactly what I was thinking....how do you manage to only drink that? We drink 1.5l a night on average over a 6 months period
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
Do you really drink nearly 5 litres of wine a week..............
Lightweight
For me has to be car every time - just prefer being in control.
Quote:
you need also to add insurance, breakdown cover, winterisation of your vehicle, maintenance, food for the journey and depreciation.
Most, if not all, are already accounted for in my case as have to have them in any case so not an additional cost. With annual mileage over 30,000 then hardly affects depreciation as car will be worth £0 when we change it. But take point that there are other costs to consider, but you could take that down to Nth degree and start gtting silly about it for any form of transport
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
car will be worth £0 when we change it.
that's my take too. I am changing cars and the old one got a massive £500 on trade-in (very expensive MOT failure coming up) with 129K miles on the clock and after a hard life including lots of Alpine trips. My son and daughter in law have two cars, he's been commuting into Bristol in a Y reg Fiesta which has been fantastic, doesn't owe them a penny. They have just got a newer car so the Fiesta is being "retired". They lent it to me, as I am between cars, but I just heard from my local garage that it's an MOT fail too - not worth repairing, so I will take it to a scrap yard before the MOT runs out next week.
Drive 'em into the ground, I say! Buying a spanking new car and then changing it after 2 years of massive depreciation seems a bit crazy to me.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Boris, pam w, you're right that, for many people, the cost of depreciation and maintenance is trivial; it all depends on the car you drive and how often you change it. I highlighted the issue because if you're a new-car-every-two-years kind of person, it's a surprisingly large cost that shouldn't be ignored. Winterisation can be a biggie if you need a new set of winter tyres to go to Austria; if, like many people, you go somewhere where you don't need special rubber or you already have M+S tyres on your car, it's again immaterial. The other stuff is, relatively speaking, loose change.
I also agree with johnE that overnight travel is a great option if your kids are young. Sleeping youngsters make better passengers than bored, squabbling wide-awake kids, and, the younger your kids are, the greater the hassle of an overnight hotel stop.
Depending on the parking facilities available in your resort, having a car can also be a great benefit when you're at your destination. You get to buy your food at supermarket prices, take off each morning from a lift (or even resort) that you fancy instead of one on a bus route, and it's much, much easier to herd young kids into a car than onto a bus. You can also take advantage of cheap, roomy properties that have poor public transport links. I've used a car at several car-friendly North American resorts and it's a very family-friendly way of organising the holiday.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
From my calculations, as soon as there's 3 of you, driving is worthwhile as long as you don't mind the slog. Personally, I'd happily drive that distance.
Winterisation, My plan is to run on winter tyres all year round, and already have chains, so not a significant additional cost.
Insurance is included already, as is breakdown cover...
Just unfortunate that it's just me that going skiing these days, tending to meet people in resort rather than travelling with them.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Sometimes, not even 3, but depends where you live, and where you drive (eg tolls etc.)
My next ski trip worked out at almost exactly the same price for 1 person, regardless of method of transport: Fly, Drive or Train (with upgrade to 1st class).
I chose train, just because I'd rather not do an 8-9 hour car journey every weekend in December, and flying incurs a bonus faff.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Jonny Jones wrote:
tangowaggon, you need also to add insurance, breakdown cover, winterisation of your vehicle, maintenance, food for the journey and depreciation. That last point can be significant - every extra 1000 miles driven will reduce the resale value of your car and you can work out how much by looking at something like Parker's guide. I'd suggest £200 for maintenance and depreciation.
It's still a lot cheaper than flying, though. We always drive to the Alps in the summer but prefer to find a hotel than drive overnight. Even that's cheaper than flying and hiring a suitable vehicle - and, in my view, much more pleasant, too.
but then for flying you need to add in the cost of food/drink at airport(s) or on planes there and back potentially
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The trade-off depends a lot on flight prices. We just booked 4 tickets Bournemouth - Geneva return in April for under £300. (easyJet late-season tickets are now on sale).
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
[quote="tangowaggon"]
Quote:
At 7 yrs old / 130000 miles on the clock, the car is not worth much anyway .
If you plan to replace it at some point, that's an incorrect analysis.
Suppose you buy a car for £15K, do 150,000 miles until it's uneconomic to maintain, scrap it and repeat. Then it has cost you 10p per mile in depreciation. Plug in your own numbers, it doesn't matter, depreciation per mile is a significant cost.
Unless you do maintenance yourself, that's a per mile cost as well. £250 service every 10,000 miles = 2.5p per mile.
So there's the best part of three hundred quid on your 2000 mile journey.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 30-09-13 16:05; edited 3 times in total
kitenski, food and drink can be dirt cheap if you pack your own sarnies, or it can be expensive if you decide that the longer journey time should be compensated by a decent meal and a glass of wine.
As I said, I'm in favour of driving. You can make your drive cheap and cheerful if you want, but, even if you make the trip a luxury one with a comfortable hotel stop, decent food and all the add-ons, it's still cheaper than the dismal experience of a budget flight.
Hmm, 6-7 hours' travel versus 12-15 hours' travel. Bit of a no brainer for me, plus I love flying anyway.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
it's still cheaper than the dismal experience of a budget flight
not necessarily. My example above - 4 return flights to Geneva for under £300. I generally drive because I go for long enough to make it worthwhile, but I wouldn't drive for a week, especially with only one or two people in the car. I fly several times a year Gatwick/Genoa for around £90 return. It's budget, but it's not dismal at all, it's absolutely fine; even get a free (sic) gin and tonic. All my easyJet flights in the last few years have also been perfectly OK - pretty well on time, clean planes that stay in the sky till they are supposed to come down - what more do you want?
Flying (even budget) is also, of course, far safer than driving.
I think the fly/drive decision is a different one on each trip, and it depends a lot on your personality. Some people would drive themselves into an early grave, the state they get into if asked to sit at an airport waiting for a flight delayed by an hour or so. But think nothing of lying under a car in the snow in the dark, trying to find the other end of a chain wrapped round the back of a wheel. It's the illusion of "being in control".
After all it is free
After all it is free
pam w wrote:
I think the fly/drive decision is a different one on each trip, and it depends a lot on your personality.
Of course - although the original question was about half term when budget flights are in scarce supply and airports are at their very worst.
I've driven down to the Alps or Southern Europe every year for nearly two decades in the school summer holidays, and it's always been cheaper than flying for a family of five. But that's not really why we take the car: the consensus view in my family is that driving is significantly more comfortable and relaxing, even though the journey takes longer. We can take as much luggage as we want, including bulky items like bikes and guitars, and, with an overnight break and a decent meal in a reasonable hotel, fatigue simply isn't an issue.
For me, the comparison is skewed by having a spacious, comfortable car (Discovery) that makes airline and airport seats look like torture devices, and the extra day's travelling isn't too serious because I live far enough from Heathrow and Gatwick to generally need an airport hotel in any case. If I had fewer kids, lived in London or travelled outside school holidays, I might see the world differently.
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Quote:
It's the illusion of "being in control
Quite - I kid myself I'm in control of the car and get scared stupid about not being in charge of a plane (I'm not scared of flying, I'm terrified of crashing).
Jonny Jones, we have Disco as well - about as fuel efficint as a Boeing 747
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Quote:
about as fuel efficint as a Boeing 747
per passenger mile? Possibly not.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
tangowagon, as you're a narthener have a look at the overnight ferry from Hull to Rotterdam/Zeebrugge. Dearer than the tunnel but you get to sleep pretty well at night & will be driving in the daytime. Plus you're replacing the horrendous drive to Dover (M25 & Operation Stack risk) with miles on the euro motorway which is a lot easier. Rotterdam ferry a lot newer with better food than the Zeebrugge one plus the commercial vehicles are separated from the private cars which makes for speedier loading/unloading. Worth paying the extra few quid for priority loading/unloading as that can take an hour off your journey t'other side. And as soon as you board book a restaurant table to ensure you eat at a reasonable time.
I'll be doing this trip this season (Crimbo & the EoSB) for the first time but loads of my customers do it regularly & the above advice is from them.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
pam w wrote:
Quote:
about as fuel efficint as a Boeing 747
per passenger mile? Possibly not.
I should have said a 747 with 5 passengers
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
We're thinking of driving to the Alps for the first time ever at Christmas I'm sure just for 2 of us it would be cheaper to fly but we've always wanted to drive there & we'll have our new Land Rover to go in so a perfect vehicle
Living oooopp North I think we'll probably do the Hull to Rotterdam overnight crossing as the drive on the continent is much easier then the drive down to Dover. I'm just looking forward to no luggage restrictions & no airport security queue
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
I'm just looking forward to no luggage restrictions & no airport security queue
And if you avoid busy holiday times you should also be able to look forward to no queues and delays at the Channel. And possibly no queues at the péage gates and no hours driving behind a snow plough at 30 mph along the autoroute.
Only kidding - I'm sure you'll enjoy the drive, but a Land Rover is not, of course, the perfect vehicle, given the enormous fuel consumption. You don't need 4WD, just front wheel drive and 4 good winter tyres.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
spyderjon, meribel46, we did the overnight Zeebrugge/Hull ferry on our return leg this summer and probably won't do it again. As we were approaching the channel ports we had this feeling that if we'd been on the Tunnel as usual we'd have been home that night and so we felt that we were losing/wasting time by taking a night on the ferry when we actually could have got home. Secondly the cost difference is significant between North Sea and Dover Calais routes. The 'Pride of York' was a misnomer if ever I heard one; this ferry was really in poor shape and in dire need of a refit, even the Brasserie food and service was not up to the usual standards. I gather the better ferries are on the Rotterdam route (done that once about 4 years ago) but the timings were better on the Zeebrugge route and Zeebrugge was a bit closer(IIRC). I'm pretty sure there was no priority boarding option on the crossing either as I booked it on the way out(Dover-Calais) but wasn't offered it on the return. I wouldn't chance the North Sea in Winter either, that old wreck was rolling badly enough in the night in the middle of August so as for getting a good night's sleep I didn't
Just my opinion and I know it's very negative but even driving from South Manchester I'd rather go Dover-Folkestone/Calais.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
pam w wrote:
Quote:
I'm just looking forward to no luggage restrictions & no airport security queue
And if you avoid busy holiday times you should also be able to look forward to no queues and delays at the Channel. And possibly no queues at the péage gates and no hours driving behind a snow plough at 30 mph along the autoroute.
Only kidding - I'm sure you'll enjoy the drive, but a Land Rover is not, of course, the perfect vehicle, given the enormous fuel consumption. You don't need 4WD, just front wheel drive and 4 good winter tyres.
In Meribel this year the Citroen hire car (on winter tyres) our friends had couldn't get out of the drive of the chalet we were in, neither could the French chalet staff in the winter tyred FWD Seat but the 4WD Mazda Bongo campervan that was with us sailed up the drive We have the Land Rover for other reasons & I'm we certainly wouldn't fit skis in our other car! It'll average around 30mpg on a long run so not the worst fuel consuption ever
But as you say we'll love the drive-its an adventure & where better to have an adventure but the Alps in winter
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
In defence of the Disco - we managed 30mpg on last trip, not brilliant but I've known worse!
And for us it IS the perfect vehicle - very few cars have 3 proper, equally sized seats, which are essential for 3 kids. Agree 4wd not really needed for skiing, but is very handy for towing caravan on other trips.
But I would say all that wouldn't I
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks for that advice, I've never done the Hull crossing before we've always done Dover Calais but only ever done summer so just thought it would be better to do a short drive to Hull rather than head down South on a dark,cold winter night but maybe we need to have a re-think
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 30-09-13 20:39; edited 1 time in total
Driving by car gives som flexibility: 2 extra skidays ,if staying ovnight near skiing place. And many skies in the topbox (and all the female's staff in the trunk!).
1500 km with one ferry crossing from Cph.
However when going skiing in Japan we have not tried the car yet - but time driving to the Alps is almost the same - (1 day for transport ), and DVD skreen is the same for kids in car og plane. (nobel peace pris for that inventer)
So do what you feel most comfatable with, and please - admin - what about a spellcheck system for us forgeiners?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
meribel46, it might work better for you, having tried it again this summer, for us I think Dover Calais works better. Good luck though, driving there is the way to do it
I'm sure you'll enjoy the drive, but a Land Rover is not, of course, the perfect vehicle, given the enormous fuel consumption. You don't need 4WD, just front wheel drive and 4 good winter tyres.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
boredsurfin, might do better with different tyres? And a different driver, maybe?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Boris wrote:
Jonny Jones, we have Disco as well - about as fuel efficint as a Boeing 747
On a motorway trip, I typically get 32mpg with the Disco. That's 160 passenger miles per gallon for the family. Meanwhile, according to Hansard, the buses favoured by hair-shirted greens use 63% more fuel. Even trains are only 12% more efficient. Taking a plane to the Alps would use four times as much fuel.
The Land Rover Discovery: every intellectually honest environmentalist should own one
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Car trip over flights due to cost and what luggage you can take.
I tried the Hull -Zeebrugge just once, and would not consider doing that again. Even though I live in Manchester and Hull is far closer than Folkestone or Dover. It did reduce my driving time in the UK but having made many trips from Manchester to the French alps (including being the sole driver) the benefits were limited.
No real cost saving.
Total travelling time not much different from going via the channel.
Tatty ship (consider it a cargo vessel that allows passengers)
Very hot and noisy (didn't get much sleep)
Food - average to poor
Due to AM arrival time in Holland I didn't get to resort until the late evening.
If I had a northern based family with kids then that may sway the decision.
I'd rather go earlier, via the tunnel and stop overnight en route to the alps.
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Jonny Jones wrote:
Boris wrote:
Jonny Jones, we have Disco ars well - about as fuel efficint as a Boeing 747
On a motorway trip, I typically get 32mpg with the Disco. That's 160 passenger miles per gallon for the family. Meanwhile, according to Hansard, the buses favoured by hair-shirted greens use 63% more fuel. Even trains are only 12% more efficient. Taking a plane to the Alps would use four times as much fuel.
The Land Rover Discovery: every intellectually honest environmentalist should own one
I'm not sure how that is worked out. A bus will use 3x the fuel yet carry 10x the passenger number.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I'm sure just for 2 of us it would be cheaper to fly but we've always wanted to drive there & we'll have our new Land Rover to go in so a perfect vehicle 
), and DVD skreen is the same for kids in car og plane. (nobel peace pris for that inventer)
