 Poster: A snowHead
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Morning all. A friend of mine has just returned from a ten day trip to Beaver Creek, he was a first time skier. He had a fantastic first couple of days whizzing around the nursery slopes, but was starting to feel a little unwell, as his skiing ability grew so did his ascent of the slopes. He was feeling progressively ill as the days went by, but like the stand up fella he is didn't complain, went out in the evening with the others drunk a fews beers and tried his best to carry on. That was until his 7th of the ten days when he went to the top of the resort, some 3500 metres and collapsed. He was flown off the mountain and taken to hospital where he was diagnoised as having a pulmonary odema, and nearly died.
So please be careful.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's a widespread problem in parts of the US. On my one trip there a lady in our chalet/house came down with it, as a result we discovered that there's a van circulating through Breckenridge filled with oxygen machines. It spends all day just picking them up and dropping them off as people need them or recover.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There was an article in yesterday's independent about it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ken Lingwood, your friend is very lucky. High Altitude Pulmonary Oedema is very nasty with a significant mortality. Many of us probably get a mild form of Altitude Sickness. As this article advises : don't go higher if you feel ill.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ken Lingwood,
I would have thought that he would have improved as he acclimatised, I am trekking up to Everest base camp in October and we have acclimatisation days enroute to allow this.
I did 8 days at Breckenridge this month to see how altitude would affect me as I was a bit concerned by the warnings and apart from a couple of problems at night I was ok so hopefully Everest will be no problem (we are going up to over 17,000' though).
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Stephen Sadler, Adapting to high altitude involves a physiological argument. Hypoxia stimulates breathing, but increased breathing lowers carbon dioxide which makes the blood less acid (raised pH) which reduces breathing. The kidneys help by peeing out alkali (bicarbonate) to correct the pH, but the diuresis dehydrates you in the process. ( acetazolamide does this as well, hence it's protective effect). That little battle leaves you run-down and thirsty, but is on the whole helpful.
Unfortunately, there is another nasty process going on: hypoxia causes blood vessels in the lungs to constrict. Under certain circumstances this is useful: at altitude it is not. The degree you suffer this varies from person to person. If it stays mild you are OK. If it raises the pressure in the pulmonary artery above a critical pressure you get pulmonary oedema. Slow ascent (acclimatisation) lessens the chance of pulmonary oedema developing, but once it has started the only treatment is descent.
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Jonpim, Thanks for the advice, as we are trekking the ascent should be relatively slow anyway and hopefully with the acclimatisation days it should workout.
I am going with a good set up so I think they should have this covered.
Having spoken to a couple of people who have done this the problems seem to be worse when sleeping but they all managed it (although I have seen some accounts on the web where only a small number of the party got to base camp).
I will give an update when I get back as it may be usefull to anyone going to a very high resort.
Has anyone else done the Everest trip?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Stephen Sadler, Best of luck on your trip. And I look forward to hearing from you when you get back, as trekking to Everest Base Camp is on my list of Things To Do Before I Die.
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My cat had Pulmonary Oedema and died last year. So that's where she went at night  Best of luck Stephen.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Climbed Kilimanjaro several years ago - 19,000ft. Several people in the group suffered from the altitude (puking up, mainly) but thankfully no pulmonary oedemas. They couldn't make it to the top had to go down. Sleeping in the highest hut on the way up was impossible. Acclimatisation is the key, but most people try to fit it into a 5 day holiday which isn't really enough time to acclimatise. Even when the upward slope is very gentle, you just have no energy at altitude and plod along at a snail's pace. Drinking lots of water is advised. I found that forcing myself to breathe hard on the upward slopes gave me a lot more energy for the climb. At that altitude it seems that the natural mechanisms that increase your rate of breathing tend not to work properly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I was there that day. The lift stopped -- he collapsed getting off the chair I believe. I'm so glad to hear he made it! 
Hey man. I joke around a lot. But I live here. I mean, I live here. You he/she/its come out here, it's a whole different scene. Take it easy!
I'll say this. Fox, none of these guys have seen what it's really like to ski out west. Fox, I aint raggin on no one. But JH was a friggin picnic. Maybe Alta skier showed you around, but I dunno. I'm just saying a bloke can get into a whole lotta trouble, hangin out here @ altitude.
Now that's not to say it's all about coming out here and being the man/woman. All I'm saying is that you start to do laps @ 11,000 feet on HS quads, making turnz on big back bottom bumps, try to push -- it'll get ya. These are the rockies. After all. You blokes come from what? Elevation 500 feet?
So be cool, taker easy. I think as long as your fit when you get here, it only takes a day or two, to get your legs.
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Alan Craggs, Alan where do you live - Catmandu?
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You know it makes sense.
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Jonpim, thanks for that, I'd been meaning to do some research on this subject. I've noticed a marked decrease in my aerobic abilities for this and last season (since my last major stack) and I've subsequently realised that I'd spent much more time at altitude in the months and years before that. As I function with a 50% lung capacity this subject is quite close to my heart (literally). I guess it’s down to getting my back bottom back in gear down the gym and even better spend more time above the ‘2K’line.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My advice from my little experience trekking in the Himalayas....if you feel ill and have even a slight worry its altitude related....DO NOT BE PROUD, tell your leader your worried and he may take you down a bit, or allow extra aclimatisation time.
It is a very serious problem and kills many people, but usually because they dont want to cause any problems to the rest of the group and dont tell anyone they are feeling under the weather...unfortunately altitude sickness is not like a cold, it wont just go away if you keep on plodding up.
I can assure you your Nepalese leader and the rest of the group will be a lot happier if you tell him rather than keep it to yourself and end up getting very ill.
Dont forget....its relatively unrelated to fitness/ability and can get anyone (even the most fit)....so its not a sign of weakness. Any professional mountaineer will prob agree with this. But dont let it get you down, an extra day at low level and youll prob be fine, but if you are stubborn it will make you very ill!
On the other hand, most everest base camp treks have plenty of acclimatisation time built in, and so many people go up there its always easy to take a day off and get up the next day, and its not at mind boggingly high altitude considering the gradual increase in altitude over the course of the trek.
Youll love it...youll never forget the amazing scenery, but i promise you the most poignant memory will be that of the fanstastic people. They are wonderfully happy, selfless people, and boy are they strong! Youll enjoy you're time, just dont drink the water (drink coke!)...Namaste! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Don't drink coke, full of caffine - dehydrates you even more.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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tomski01, great post: I am now even more determined to do this trip. How did you organise yours?
I concur with your mention that Altitude Sickness severity has nothing to do with fitness. I seem to remember Chris Bonnington was a sufferer (can't find reference just now) and it stopped him succeeding in a number of climbs.
If you are going really high and worried about HAPE (high altitude pulmonary edema), the you should take one of these .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A few years back in Winter Park, which is close to 10,000ft at the resort, rising to 12,500 at the top of timberline, they had an Oxygen bar at the base, in the main building beside the Zephyr lift.
JH is low, not sure of the elevation, but I'd reckon the resort is lower than Alta or the Bird.
Most of the Colorado resorts are higher than the peaks in Europe.
Keep hydrated, and take it easy, if you're not used to it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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(oh, and the other thing is, when you come back down to home after a couple of weeks at those altitudes, you will feel very fit for a while as your body appreciates all that extra oxygen it can get in)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hope i dint give the wrong impression, ive not done base camp....the trek we did was a 10 day trek up the Langtang Valley (one of the quieter lesser known areas)....we got to 5,100m at the highest.
Having said that, the following experience probably applies to all of Nepals trekking areas (inclusing the base camp trail, which is a lot busier i gather than where we went...tho i also would love to do it one day):
When we went, we went with a company one member of the party had used before, their website is below:
http://www.uniquetreks.com/index.html
(it looks a bit flashier than it did hen we used them!)
They are a Nepalese company, with no links to the big companies in the UK. So, there is no slice of the profit brought back here...so it all stays in nepal, which to us was important (its one of the poorest countries by far!).
Also, they have a policy of giving their sherpas/guides proper attire (as opposed to bare foot/flip flops as many companies do)....as i say they are a tough breed of people!
oops, i had better do some work before i get rumbled!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I hadn't considered that before. Even at not so high altitudes (1800m), would it be fair to surmise that one would still feel a change once home? I had quite a vigorous week, last week and felt pretty good when I got home at the weekend. Yesterday however, I felt as though I'd completely run out of steam. Possibly related?
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Mark Hunter, I'm pretty sure you can feel the benefit. I usually feel lightheaded for a couple of days when I get back from the Alps.
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I does make sense - it was like trying to walk through treacle yesterday! Fine today.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mark Hunter, yes, you will feel some benefit, but it's amazing the difference coming down from 3,000m+
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A few points about alttitude sickness -
1 - Those portable pressure chambers are an emergency stop-gap only, they do not cure you, and are no substitute for returning to a lower alttitude.
2 - Just because you've been ok at alttitude before, doesn't mean that you're immune from it, similarly, even if you've had a previous attack of alttitude sickness, it does not necessarily mean that it will happen again.
3 - At about 2000m (the height of most European ski resorts) alttitude sickness is rarely a life threatening problem, the most it is likely to do to you is make you feel slightly unwell and disturb your sleep. From memory, it is only when you get above 3500m that it starts to be more of a problem.
I remember seeing a very good web page on this subject, if I have time I shall try and find it and make a link.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Athletes use this effect to improve performance. One of the adaptive mechanisms is making more red cells to improve oxygen carrying capacity of the blood. Some athletes have taken this a stage further with blood transfusions or use of EPO (erythropoetin, hormone secreted by the kidney that stimulates the bone marrow to make more red cells). This is considered cheating. The extra red cells will be removed on returning to sea level, so the effect is short-lived, hence Mark Hunter "running out of steam".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Kramer, I support all your points.
The Portable Altitude Chamber site does state in big red letters "The only treatment for AMS is to descend to a lower altitude" and that the PAC is only an emergency stop-gap device. I hope I did not misinform with this link.
If you find your link to your site on altitude sickness I would be most interested. I have to know a bit about this for teaching the anaesthetic muppets. Altitude sickness is rare at 2000m. Until recently I would have said unknown, but then one of our anaesthetic group became very unwell at Belle Plagne (2050m) and had to be taken down the mountain. Surprised all of us.
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My son has suffered quite badly in Canada, although we were in Banff all week, we went up to Spray Lakes dog-sledding. He was very nauseousand breathless and had to sit in the sled all the way , much to his disgust, as his younger, less fit,brother mushed all the way round and thoroughly enjoyed himself.
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You know it makes sense.
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It was funny - as a young kid I had problems getting up Mount Teide in Tenerife, but didn't have any worries up at the top of Aiguille du Midi last year. Maybe Teide is higher...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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masopa, 3842m Aiguille du Midi - 3718m Teide.... I stayed in the Parador up there for a couple of nights, fantastic - not a Brit in sight, generator-powered electrics, candles after 11pm, what a place.... (maybe it was all the sulphurous gas, or a climb more or less straight up from sea level if you went up on one of those coach trips from the resorts.)
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Poster: A snowHead
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tomski01, Thanks for a great post, I am camping rather than doing the tea houses as this was recommended to me, what did you do?
Stephen.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Although glacier ski-ing is usually around 3,000 - 3,700m in europe you can still get altitude sickness, and a small proportion of the ski-ing population do. Whenever I take people up to the glacier (3200m) in summer from the town (1650m), I insist that we take a 15 -30 min break and drink before starting to ski. This seems to help a lot, but you'd be surprised how many people seem to think I trying to cheat them out of lesson time - even when the time starts with the lesson and not the arrival at the glacier!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Stephen, We had a mixture really, cos we had the full team including chef....great fun, and it was good to support the local employment!
I think you will have a great time whatever you do, it really is an enchanting place!
Make sure you allow some time to explore Kathmandu, its a crazy place....in a nice way, make sure you go to the pub with all the big paper footprints on the wall filled in by all the expeditions (including obituaries from those who never made it back....sad but inspiring at the same time), and they have a Mallory & Irvine display, very interesting!
You can access the Mount Everest forecast on snow-forecast.com for a bit of a novelty....it was -34 (not including the 90kmph windchill) at the summit last week apparently!
I have no idea what the skiing is like there tho, plenty of varied off piste i would say, and the 10 day walk-in prob makes it a very quiet resort! 
PS we introduced one nepalese family to jenga while we were there, after about 2 games to introduce the concept, about 20 villagers came over and spent the whole night playing absolutely entranced...god knows what would happen if they saw a TV for the first time! (of course we left the jenga behind as a gift!)
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