I've decided to take the plunge and signed up to do my BASI L1 in a couple of weeks (yikes).
In my gate training I've been taught and subsequently engrained hip angulation to ensure weighting of the outside / downhill ski. I was also interested to watch this video in an earlier thread re the quality of the snowploughs:
That all seems fine, except I did an instructor development session last night at Castleford where we went through the Central Theme. When we were each giving snow plough turn demonstrations I was doing my best replication of the above (presumably Austrian) demonstration in the above video and the feedback I received was to keep my head and upper body still laterally (ie not angulating to pressure the outside ski) and on reflection I'm left feeling a bit confused.
Is angulation to weight the outside ski not encouraged in the BASI Central Theme until later? If so, when? In which case presumably the technique demonstrated in the above isn't a model to copy.
Thoughts and observations very welcome.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
That's the issue with watching other nations. don't do it so close to your L1 , you'll confuse yourself!! That was also uploaded in 2009 it seems.
BASI "demo mode" snow plough is (as you say) head and upper body still laterally (and horizontally!!)
Imagine a 40 year old unfit person attending their very first class, angulation etc is going to confuse the heck out of them, remember the KISS principle! Skiing gates is altogether very different to teaching first day beginners!
Here's me snowploughing in lovely fresh snow!! ploughs probably a touch too wide but it was steep at the top, but it should give you something to visualise...(as I can't find any central theme stuff on the BASI Youtube site).....
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
Is angulation to weight the outside ski not encouraged in the BASI Central Theme until later?
Correct - remember you are teaching complete beginners!
Keep it simple. Technical concepts like angulation will just confuse learners.
Central Theme starts with a very basic snow plough - Then builds it all up from there.
FWIW Central Theme isnt just a BASI system (many other nations use it or something very similiar).
Without seeing you....difficult to say, but (based on my last refresher) BASI now want us only to make movements required to stay in balance. If you are not generating much pressure on the outside ski - you won't need to angulate.
Angulation is used to stay in balance over the outside ski, this has the result of putting 'weight' on the ski -- but this is not the same as applying pressure to the ski to make it turn............
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Angulation allows you to create larger edge angles while balancing your centre of mass over your outside ski. ("Balancing over your outside ski" means that your weight plus the cetrifugal force is a vector pointing from your centre of mass towards your outside ski.)
If you are snow-ploughing then you don't want to have big edge angles, and you aren't trying to balance over your outside ski.
Thanks for the clarification all, makes perfect sense.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Can't agree with this Subito. Inclination allows you to create the angles, angulation allows you to maintain balance (against your outside ski) while making these angles. You can create inclination without angulation and create angles to the point where you fall over. To my eye the first video is a somewhat stylised approach and as much to do with national recognition than funtional skiing.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
You can create inclination without angulation and create angles to the point where you fall over.
I don't see how this contradicts what I said. The point is that for a fixed speed the amount of edge angle you can get without falling further into the turn is limited if you use pure inclination. Falling over is painful, and best avoided in my opinion.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
That video is apparently showing the progression from plough to plough parralel, which requires 'SUPPORT ON THE OUTSIDE SKI'. Sorry for the shout there, but I have to recite that every time the question comes up. For that support, there needs to be good edging and all the other stuff. The following guy in the video remonds me of the way I was taught to plough turn on day one, lean left to go right and vice versa, took flipping years to get that out of my system !
I believe I am correct in thinking that BASI prefer plough turning to be taught starting with rotation of the feet, which doesn't require a positive edging action; in fact this will hinder rotation. As the skiers gain confidence, experience and speed, edging and support become more of a feature of the plough turn until the skiers achieve "SUPPORT ON THE OUTSIDE SKI".
For the early stages, it's less frightening for skiers to stay upright and learn to steer by pointing their feet where they intend to go.
I did have three teenage students in my first class who went from zero, through rotational plough turning to parallel swing turns in two hours with no input from me other than moving markers closer together. I thought I was brilliant at teaching. It hasn't happened since and I figure they were brilliant at learning.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
subito, Just making the point that it's inclination not angulation that creates the angle. Maybe I've misunderstood your point.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
thirty06 wrote:
I believe I am correct in thinking that BASI prefer plough turning to be taught starting with rotation of the feet, which doesn't require a positive edging action; in fact this will hinder rotation.
Yes, that's right. So angulation (such as using arms in an exaggerated "swooping airplane" position) actually hinders progress.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I'm clear that BASI aren't wanting the angulation in the plough, however I'm thinking it should be possible to angulate rob@rar without aeroplane arms, no?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
abd wrote:
I'm clear that BASI aren't wanting the angulation in the plough, however I'm thinking it should be possible to angulate rob@rar without aeroplane arms, no?
Yes, of course. The airplane arms is something that you often see early stage snowploughers being asked to do, and I think it encourages excessive angulation and too much edge angle for plough turns. I would much rather see a natural stance at that stage, with the focus on steering the skis smoothly around the turn rather than an artificial body position.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar wrote:
abd wrote:
I'm clear that BASI aren't wanting the angulation in the plough, however I'm thinking it should be possible to angulate rob@rar without aeroplane arms, no?
Yes, of course. The airplane arms is something that you often see early stage snowploughers being asked to do, and I think it encourages excessive angulation and too much edge angle for plough turns. I would much rather see a natural stance at that stage, with the focus on steering the skis smoothly around the turn rather than an artificial body position.
Agreed. steer the skis.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Nothing to add but, Very Interesting
Actually I'm a bit gutted.. ..I was looking forward to playing Battle of Britain with Happychap
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
..I was looking forward to playing Battle of Britain with Happychap 
