... over the past year I've been told that i'm slightly 'A' framing.
I've been working really hard on getting my inside ski to be 'parallel' as much as possible with my outside ski... both skis pointing in the same direction. I've been told i'm using my Knees rather than my hip joints to do it, which is not ideal... hence the slight 'A' frame look.
I noticed whilst laying on my back ( as you do ), that when my legs are straight and my knees are pointing directly upwards that my feet point at approximately five to one as on a clock face. The direction doesn't come from my ankle joints but from my knee joint. If I turn my feet to 12 o'clock, by turning in my hip socket then my knees then go slightly inwards... does anyone else get this... is it common?
What worries me, is than i'm never going to be able to be seen as skiing 'proficiently as my actual legs aren't straight haha
Is there anything you can do to manipulate 'straightness' or am I buggered?
I'd post a photo up of me skiing which shows what i'm talking about but I can't see how to put one up from my computer.
Any thoughts?[/img]
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
spud, Pretty sure you can do something about this via footbed/ boot/binding manipulations, why not ring CEM and discuss?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Upload the photo somewhere for example Imgur (http://imgur.com/).
It will provide you with a text to paste into here. Use the BBCode (message boards & forums) text it provides.
spud, Pretty sure you can do something about this via footbed/ boot/binding manipulations, why not ring CEM and discuss?
Yes... you are right, I've had my footbeds put in, and also my leg alignment done and boots manipulated, but all this does is make sure your Skis sit flat and not on edge. It's pointing both legs in the same direction using my hip joints that is causing the problem... not the flatness of the skis on the snow... if you get my drift. Thanks for the thought though
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
meh wrote:
Upload the photo somewhere for example Imgur (http://imgur.com/).
It will provide you with a text to paste into here. Use the BBCode (message boards & forums) text it provides.
Of course Doh! Cheers for that.
I hope from the image you can see the problem. It doesn't happen all the time but it's very frustrating...
Upload the photo somewhere for example Imgur (http://imgur.com/).
It will provide you with a text to paste into here. Use the BBCode (message boards & forums) text it provides.
Of course Doh! Cheers for that.
I hope from the image you can see the problem. It doesn't happen all the time but it's very frustrating...
As you can see sometimes I can get them inline... but it's very infrequent...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
spud, The photos look fine to me, you have the same edge angle on both skis.
After all it is free
After all it is free
You could always look into those funky Fischer boots where you're feet are (were?) offset and pointing slightly to the outside. I think it was something like that.
I think I have a similar thing going on, being slightly 'duck footed.' Probably too many years squeezing my feet into tiny kayaks
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spud, Have you ever looked at Ron Le Master’s book, Ultimate Skiing?
He says a bit about alignment of lower legs and ‘A’ framing. In short, he says that having parallel lower legs is “a neutral point that good skiers often pass through as they go from turn to turn but don’t necessarily maintain throughout the turn…”
Also, that skiers being told to ski with parallel shins is “a great exercise for developing good, active use of the inside leg, it’s not something that everyone should do all the time.”
“Working to keep lower legs parallel for its own sake is problematic.” “Skiers who work too hard at keeping their shins parallel often display several adverse effects: a stiff core, an overly square stance with no counter, and poor hip angulation.”
He also says that Lindsey Vonn does it.
That’s not to say that you don’t have a problem that needs addressing. I couldn’t really say without watching you skiing, but according to Ron Le Master it would seem that some people ski like that and it’s ok.
If you haven’t seen the book and you’re interested in the technicalities of skiing, then I’d recommend it.
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rjs wrote:
spud, The photos look fine to me, you have the same edge angle on both skis.
Yes... you are right... i'm getting the skis on edge at the same ish angle, but i'm using my knees to do it, rather than from the hip socket. My Coaches have all pointed it out and said it's putting undue wear and tear and extra pressure on my knee ligaments and is not a 'strong' position to be in.
As for boots... which Clarkey999 mentioned... I don't think equipment is going to help, it's purely a physical thing.
Just was wondering whether it was normal and if there was anything you can do about it.
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SaraJ wrote:
spud, Have you ever looked at Ron Le Master’s book, Ultimate Skiing?
He says a bit about alignment of lower legs and ‘A’ framing. In short, he says that having parallel lower legs is “a neutral point that good skiers often pass through as they go from turn to turn but don’t necessarily maintain throughout the turn…”
Also, that skiers being told to ski with parallel shins is “a great exercise for developing good, active use of the inside leg, it’s not something that everyone should do all the time.”
“Working to keep lower legs parallel for its own sake is problematic.” “Skiers who work too hard at keeping their shins parallel often display several adverse effects: a stiff core, an overly square stance with no counter, and poor hip angulation.”
He also says that Lindsey Vonn does it.
That’s not to say that you don’t have a problem that needs addressing. I couldn’t really say without watching you skiing, but according to Ron Le Master it would seem that some people ski like that and it’s ok.
If you haven’t seen the book and you’re interested in the technicalities of skiing, then I’d recommend it.
Cheers for the heads up appreciated. I have seen the book but wasn't aware of the quotes about it.
My biggest thought is I have to be seen to ski a certain way... as i'm a Ski Instructor. I wish to pass my level 3 this coming season, and I've been told that if i'm seen to ski slightly 'A' framing' then it would go against me... regardless of physical attributes.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
spud, Do you need to make any effort to achieve the stance in the photos ? Could you move the inside knee out a bit if you wanted, or is it at the limit of your ligaments ?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rjs wrote:
spud, Do you need to make any effort to achieve the stance in the photos ? Could you move the inside knee out a bit if you wanted, or is it at the limit of your ligaments ?
Yes... I can move the inside knee out and lower the hip, if I make a deliberate first move of leading the turn with the inside knee. By bringing it up to my inside shoulder. However when I do that, the inside angle of the ski is dictated by my lower leg ( actual physicality of my lower leg ) therefore the ski is facing too much to the inside and I have to adjust it with my knee.
It comes naturally ( as of my body structure ) to ski as in the top photo.
If I try to change by making the turn with my hip joint as requested by my coaches, then the inside edge angle and direction becomes too 'inside'.
It's very frustrating.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
spud, I think we would need to see you ski or see video, it just sounds like a technique problem to me though.
Why do you want to lead the turn with the inside knee ?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
need some video to have a better look as RJS says, stills dont always capture the root issue. I will be shot down in flames on this but to me on one or two of the shots it looks as though you are actively trying to counter and that could be causing some of the knee angulation. Most dont agree with me on this board but at the edge angles you are achieving it looks as though you are slightly overly countered. Did your coaches talk about counter or did they ask you to try to achieve a long leg short leg and bigger edge angles?
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Aren't most people a bit duck? After all few naturally sit on a chairlift with skis parallel.
While I'm sure the anti A frame brigade have a point in encouraging good efficient form - to be overly prescriptive about it when it goes against personal biomechanics isn't good?
Main thing I'm seeing in the photos compared to say Ted the Shred is not enough Inner tip lead - now I know that's the manifestation of lots of stuff going on re pelvis and separation etc.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Well i'll try and answer as best I can.
Unfortunately I don't have any video looking at me that I can share.
I have found that if I slightly initiate the turn with my inside knee, it helps open up my pelvis and hip and stops me from getting stuck on the inside ski and 'A' framing even more.
My coach has been trying to get me on a longer and shorter leg. Told to get straighter and less angulation. To stop skiing like a 'ski instructor' haha.
Apparently I had too much tip lead with the inner... so had to address that.
If I can give an example... if I were to stand up tall, then bring one leg up directly to get my knee to touch my chest, it would automatically end up nearer the centre of my chest.
To get it directly above, I have to feel that I am lifting and opening the hip socket to keep it straight and in line. Hope that makes sense...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spud, okay that sounds like what I thought then. You do look a bit hippy and ski with too much counter and an open hip. The long leg short leg should help square you up on the skis. I agree too much inner lead for the amount of angulation and edge angles and that is a result of over counter for the edge angles and slope steepness you are on (Rossalin?)
In an effort to angulate a lot of people (me included) collapse too early during the turn, drop the hip in and open up and get too on the inside rather than letting the counter develop naturally as the angulation and inner leg shortens. Staying longer and stronger with the outside half will help with this.
spud, okay that sounds like what I thought then. You do look a bit hippy and ski with too much counter and an open hip. The long leg short leg should help square you up on the skis. I agree too much inner lead for the amount of angulation and edge angles and that is a result of over counter for the edge angles and slope steepness you are on (Rossalin?)
In an effort to angulate a lot of people (me included) collapse too early during the turn, drop the hip in and open up and get too on the inside rather than letting the counter develop naturally as the angulation and inner leg shortens. Staying longer and stronger with the outside half will help with this.
Thanks for that... and it makes total sense and something my coaches have been working with me on.
It's a nightmare tbh, as when working as an Instructor I've been told to create more angulation and separation.
It took me nearly 3 days to get out of that habit, and I still can't quiet nail it. The longer the outside leg and shorter the inner definitely did help.
Yes pics were taken on Rossalin. Unfortunately as I was one of the taller skiers, it became difficult to get that ouside leg straighter when it got rutted up, as everyone elses line was so much nearer the gates. If I followed the ruts and got a straight leg and lots of ski angle then my face was in the gate flag Further away and I was in the soft suff... so it wasn't easy unless I was nailing it first thing in the morning.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
when working as an Instructor I've been told to create more angulation and separation.
Too many instructors (and some Instructor trainers and examiners ) are overly concerned with inputs not with what they are trying to achieve. When racing think more about Outcomes not Inputs, worrying about inner knee position in a course isnt going to help, do some drills outside the gates and then focus on an outcome such as a higher line, staying in the rut line or whatever. As a taller guy with long limbs you should be looking to develop big edge angles early in the turn and rip some fast times in your GS course, that is the desired outcome. I dont think you will need to angulate that much on what is a relatively shallow slope like rossalin in GS radius turns (except maybe to stop getting smacked in the face at 25mph by a gate panel . The course set doesnt look too offset and I am guessing they were working on line and getting the transition earlier in the turn whilst staying longer and stronger above the gate and not scrubbing off speed in the slush below the gate.
when working as an Instructor I've been told to create more angulation and separation.
Too many instructors (and some Instructor trainers and examiners ) are overly concerned with inputs not with what they are trying to achieve. When racing think more about Outcomes not Inputs, worrying about inner knee position in a course isnt going to help, do some drills outside the gates and then focus on an outcome such as a higher line, staying in the rut line or whatever. As a taller guy with long limbs you should be looking to develop big edge angles early in the turn and rip some fast times in your GS course, that is the desired outcome. I dont think you will need to angulate that much on what is a relatively shallow slope like rossalin in GS radius turns (except maybe to stop getting smacked in the face at 25mph by a gate panel . The course set doesnt look too offset and I am guessing they were working on line and getting the transition earlier in the turn whilst staying longer and stronger above the gate and not scrubbing off speed in the slush below the gate.
make sense?
Totally makes sense mate and that is what I was working on. Plenty of drills being done before hitting the gates too.
During gates, I just had two focusses.
Early transition and long leg, short leg.
As you say...you don't have to angulate much on Rossalin... apparently I was doing too much and I was getting stuck on the inside.
Many thanks for the input... it's appreciated
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
no worries just glad I wasnt talking nonsense , a bit hard to give solid advice off of just a couple of photos but it was all pretty clear to me what was happening and what your coaches were probably working on with you... Good luck with it and hope you keep shaving off the 1/10ths !!
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret wrote:
no worries just glad I wasnt talking nonsense , a bit hard to give solid advice off of just a couple of photos but it was all pretty clear to me what was happening and what your coaches were probably working on with you... Good luck with it and hope you keep shaving off the 1/10ths !!
Appreciated... it's all work in progress... enjoyable but frustrating though
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spud wrote:
My biggest thought is I have to be seen to ski a certain way... as i'm a Ski Instructor. I wish to pass my level 3 this coming season, and I've been told that if i'm seen to ski slightly 'A' framing' then it would go against me... regardless of physical attributes.
If you choose to stay with the organisation then you have little choice but to appease these clo people. Boots with a more abducted stance (e.g. Fischer) will make you look less A-framey because your knees will bend straighter along the ski rather than to the inside.
Your race coaches may have spotted a technical issue, however your knees will always be closer together than your feet as soon as you start bending them. Like this spaz.
You could really screw up your skiing by obsessing about this, or rather your trainers could really screw up your skiing by obsessing about this.
All IMHO of course.
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Not going to get into if you should A frame or not, but if if you are struggling not to at the hip when you try it could be due to an inbalance in the strength of adductors to abductors. How your leg joints 'naturally' sit can be influenced by your muscles as well as your joints.
For sure you can definitely re-align yourself inside the boot as an alternative to abducted boots. For someone with a duck footed stance you try standing with a magazine under the inside of the heels. When you bend your knees they track more in alignment with the direction of the foot. I experimented with this but found though aesthetically more pleasing I went back to 'passive' footbeds because it was a weaker and less athletic than my natural stance. There is certainly a difference of opinion in the ski boot fitting world whether to use footbeds to change your stance or whether it is better to leave well alone and work around what you have.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
First off, you say you have had your 'boots manipulated', what exactly have you had done? I am pretty duck footed as well, and only recently got my boots done properly (soles planed and internal shims), and it made a really big difference, much less a-frame, and much better vertical movement as well, as my knees could track properly. I was already full cert, but now I ski much better than before.
For me, the position you're showing in those photos is a lot to do with technique as well, it looks like you are trying to get more angles than you have the speed to achieve, so you are dropping your hip back and in so you can balance on the inside ski a bit. it's kind of hard to say without video, but it looks like it wasn't a clean carve either.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thanks for the input guys...it's really appreciated.
Regarding equipment... I've had footbeds made, and boots made to fir correctly. Soles have been planed and angles made to align with my
knees.
The problem comes from the fact my angle at hip socket is different to that at my knee... hence having to turn the knee joint to straighten.
I realise it's ok to have a certain amount of 'A' frame but anyone will tell you who is going through Certification that it is seen as a negative
and will go against you.
I also realise that Racing is also different to 'normal' skiing. However... this curse still happens in all forms of my skiing.
Jimmer... you are quiet correct... my coach said I was dropping my hip inside too much. After these photos were taken, I rectified that and
had a longer outside leg and got more 'straight' for the conditions. My carving was actually good according to my coach... so I don't think
that's an issue. The snow was soft.... maybe that's what you can see?
The only video I have, that will give some idea of speed, angles etc is this one. Skip the first minute if you want to miss the waffle.
Many thanks again everyone for you your considered input.
spud, most things that get asked on snowheads are technique related. If you had really bad bio mechanics then CEM, or whoever, would have pointed it out to you. Sometimes it is quite easy to come up with lots of extravagant reasons why we cannot do something straight away (and I have had lots of experience doing exactly this myself).
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jimmer wrote:
For me, the position you're showing in those photos is a lot to do with technique as well, it looks like you are trying to get more angles than you have the speed to achieve, so you are dropping your hip back and in so you can balance on the inside ski a bit.
+1
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Spud, so the reason why it looks like skidding and not carving is the amount of spray, and the relatively high edge angles late in the turn, could just have been soft snow too though. Sounds like you are making progress, like your coach says, hips inside is not a bad thing, you just need to get them there the right way. I am on mobile right now but check out a site called paullorenzclinics.com, there's an article on there called inclination vs angulation that's really good, in fact all the articles are good, that one is appropriate here though.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
OMG jimmer, What a cracking article...many thanks for that.
What he say's is so appropriate. What he points out and what I find most annoying is that as a Ski Instructor I have been encouraged to Angulate more with less inclination.
This I have found has held me back for various reasons. I can understand creating greater Angulation in certain scenario's whilst skiing, but when skiing carved medium to
long fast turns it's not needed so much as he describes so well. In fact my Coach was saying exactly the same thing on a recent course. It took me nearly 4 days to
get out of an ingrained mental and physical way of skiing. In fact my skiing became more balanced and in a stronger position with less angulation.
Here's the link to the article if anyone else is interested... it's well worth the read. Many thanks again Jimmer
In fact my Coach was saying exactly the same thing on a recent course.
Quote:
It took me nearly 4 days to get out of an ingrained mental and physical way of skiing. In fact my skiing became more balanced and in a stronger position with less angulation.
I think you should just listen to your coach, she's pretty good
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
spud wrote:
OMG jimmer, What a cracking article...many thanks for that.
What he say's is so appropriate. What he points out and what I find most annoying is that as a Ski Instructor I have been encouraged to Angulate more with less inclination.
This I have found has held me back for various reasons. I can understand creating greater Angulation in certain scenario's whilst skiing, but when skiing carved medium to
long fast turns it's not needed so much as he describes so well. In fact my Coach was saying exactly the same thing on a recent course. It took me nearly 4 days to
get out of an ingrained mental and physical way of skiing. In fact my skiing became more balanced and in a stronger position with less angulation.
Here's the link to the article if anyone else is interested... it's well worth the read. Many thanks again Jimmer
The problem comes from the fact my angle at hip socket is different to that at my knee... hence having to turn the knee joint to straighten.
I realise it's ok to have a certain amount of 'A' frame but anyone will tell you who is going through Certification that it is seen as a negative
and will go against you
even though would probably ski them off the mountain?
It's form over function and it's bonkers.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Believe it or not Kenny, Yes, apparently so... which is nuts isn't it?
Thanks for the youtube clip of Genevieve... I can see similarities in the way she positions her legs to how I do it. I was told by my coach it is common in skiers who have a
wider pelvic area. Maybe this is the case... it's just down to physicality.
After all it is free
After all it is free
spud, there are still things you can do about it - even if it is physicality. CEM gave me some excellent glut strengthening exercises, for example. Women do suffer from A-framing more than men but IMO it's a matter of technical improvement to overcome the issue. In other words, IMO ... there's nothing wrong with your legs or your kit. It's just a frustrating and tricky technical skill to acquire for some more than others.
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Hi Spud,
I am recovering from ACL replacement (left knee) and my physio has commented on something similar that was caused by a car accident when I dislocated my right hip and damaged some discs.
When my right knee is facing forward (12 o'clock) my right foot is pointed at 2 o'clock. And when I bring my right foot to 12 o'clock, my right knee rotates inward. Also my right leg appears\fells a little shorter than my left.
I have been doing some research (very dangerous), this can be caused by a tight Iliopsoas muscle (which is actually quite big and very important for something I had never heard of).
So in youtube there are some stretching exercises for:
1) Iliopsoas
2) I would recommend also stretching your TFL
3) and your ITB with a foam roller. You will probably never do anything more painful than this to yourself intentionally in the rest of your life, but stick with it and it gets less painful after a few goes.
I am starting to get some results after a few weeks. But that could just be better flexibility and wishful thinking.
Wakkitt
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
spud, I'm a bit confused, is it not just that you need variousdiffering techniques, one for gates, one for demos and one for "instructing" pass level longs and shorts?
If your looking to pass your L3, then you need to be practising the skiing to pass that, which doesn't include gates (Does it??)
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) are overly concerned with inputs not with what they are trying to achieve. When racing think more about Outcomes not Inputs, worrying about inner knee position in a course isnt going to help, do some drills outside the gates and then focus on an outcome such as a higher line, staying in the rut line or whatever. As a taller guy with long limbs you should be looking to develop big edge angles early in the turn and rip some fast times in your GS course, that is the desired outcome. I dont think you will need to angulate that much on what is a relatively shallow slope like rossalin in GS radius turns (except maybe to stop getting smacked in the face at 25mph by a gate panel 
, a bit hard to give solid advice off of just a couple of photos but it was all pretty clear to me what was happening and what your coaches were probably working on with you... Good luck with it and hope you keep shaving off the 1/10ths !!
