 Poster: A snowHead
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A couple of recent threads have led me to question the wisdom of starting beginners on shaped skis
1. It seems that people can over progress without nailing fundamentals.
2. I had a genuine lightbulb moment that progressing intermediates have difficulty with getting weight on the outside ski early in the turn because they've only ever skied on shaped skis
With straight skis you might lose some easiness but you certainly have to get the weight on your outside ski and develop rotary skills as without extreme athleticism you aren't going to be "carving".
So, notwithstanding the fact that no-one makes them and that many instructors themselves won't have skied straight skis what are the drawbacks of a bit of back to basics?
After all everyone tells us that fat rockered skis are for cheaters 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pfft, leather boots and wooden skis surely!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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meh, I was thinking Lesson 1 - how to chop down your tree.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm sorry... have a slipped into a time warp back to April 1st 1985?
"Carving" = Skiing.
When you learn to ski you are learning to carve as soon as you can control your speed and safety using snowplough. There is nothing in between these stages apart from the elusive bit that seems to be conjured up by those that haven't had lessons since about 1985!
For point 2 you just do turns lifting the inside leg before the turn and putting it down back into a traverse... that sorts that out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Carving =/= skiing, it's only a small element and the space for clean carving is elusive for many skiers.
Because you can ski relatively effectively by tipping over a sidecut ski and sitting there, I can see why people can get locked into the nervous ninny or the backseat blue bomber stance. There is a bit bit that you indicate is made up otherwise why do instructors do endless bracquage drills etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
"Carving" = Skiing.
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 surely not. I sometimes despair, as I look back at my tracks. Fair amount of smear; not that much carve. Try to reduce the smear; but hard to eliminate it entirely.
Don't see any point in starting beginners on straight skis - things which make sports more accessible for beginners are to be welcomed, surely? There were plenty of people who skied badly on the old skis, too, if they were not well taught.
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carving = skiing....
This is what you learn to do. Some can do it some can't do it as well as others... some strive to do it properly, some don't care and plod along as they see fit, some are professionals.
Then you adapt this to suit your needs and what you enjoy the most; be it off or on piste, race or bumps.
A fast hockey stop to hockey stop to hockey stop is not taught at the basic level... well doing it to stop is.
So... carving = skiing as this is what you are immediately taught how to do... even though you may not be able to do it perfectly every time etc.. etc.. etc..
Learners are taught how to ski on modern skis... they do not need to be able to ski on a straight ski.
Back seaters or 'ninis' just need more lessons or help. Nothing to do with ski shape.
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I heard the same argument for climbing, you need to learn on big boots to get your footwork right. Just not true.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The type of ski matters very little when learning the fundamentals like posture, flexion, balance; or even further on to pressure, tipping etc. However, modern skis are easier to learn on simply coz they are shorter, lighter and easier to manage, so progress can be quicker (witness FC & Handman).
IMO, every skier should start on short SL skis then work 'up' to GS (straighter) to polish their technique. Personally, I have too much fun on my short SL skis to want to change.
I hear what you say though. A bit like the introduction of huge racquet heads in squash or larger, cavity-backed clubs in golf...it became a lot easier to learn, but the fundamentals were the same.
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...acually, maybe not on tipping....that's what making a turn so much easier on modern skis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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When teaching very small kids, at first i thought the ones that turned up on straight skis off ebay were getting the short straw.
9 times out of ten they picked up a snow plough and turning much quicker, therefore progressing onto the mountain faster.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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flangesax, it's pretty sad if people really are only being taught to carve, they'll be buggered in bumps, tight trees, on steep narrow runs and for a lot of off-piste skiing. Although I get the idea you might be using your own definition of the word rather than what everyone else thinks of as carving.
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meh,
not really my own definition.
carving = skiing
I have never had to teach bumps, tight trees or steep narrow runs to those immediately progressing from snow plough.
And that is my point... the definition is now so cloudy... when you learn to 'ski'... replace the word ski with carve... cos that is what you are taught.
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You know it makes sense.
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What % of skiers carve? 5, 10, apart from anything else it would be dangerous on most crowded pistes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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flangesax, so what you actually mean to say is not carving equals skiing but carving is what most beginners think they should learn to do and what most/some instructors teach to them. Rather than giving beginners a sound understanding of the fundamentals of the various ways you can steer a ski well?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Most people stop using instructors after learning to 'confidently' ski i.e. parallel, stopping, carving (linking turns), safety and often in groups where time with one student is limited, if not impossible. I still use instructors now and then with my husband for private lessons. He's newer to skiing and he's certainly taught to ski with a varied technique and I pick up loads. I think it depends who teaches you and what they believe are the fundamentals.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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When you learn to turn without using a snowplough you are learning to 'carve' the turn... so lets forget the word 'carve' and just call it a 'turn'.... simples.
So in simple terms if you want to learn ski down a piste and link some turns without using a snowplough you are taught the fundamentals of 'carving' (=skiing)... how good you are at it is irrelevant.
Of course you develop your skills appropriately for what how/what you prefer to ski.
Of course you need a varied technique for different conditions and styles.
So if you learning to ski you are learning to carve so in short... skiing = carving
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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flangesax, so why call it carving rather than skiing? There is a reason why the technique has specific terminology associated with it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Loads of beginner skiiers would benefit hugely from learning how to manipulate and understand their skis, rather than just using them to traverse a slope in a uniform manner and relying on experience to bring on the rest. Especially in difficult situations. All in my humble opinion of course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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this is now just getting silly....
please use your own noggin' to work that one out rather than hassling mine!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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flangesax, well that was a house of cards.
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fatbob, I don't think that a ski with very little sidecut is going to encourage beginners (or anyone else for that matter) to develop good all-round skills. If a ski is not being used effectively, for example being pushed sideways at the start of a turn, does it matter if it is an old straight ski, a modern piste ski or a fat rockered ski? Whatever it is, it's still being pushed sideways and therefore not influencing the line that the skier is taking. When a ski is being used effectively it will provide immediate positive feedback to the skier, so why should we deny beginners (or anyone else for that matter) the increased performance that modern ski designs have brought? After all, won't a bit of positive feedback help a skier to develop their skills?
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rob@rar, but it would keep all the grockles out of the powder leaving more for me and fatbob!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ALQ wrote: |
The type of ski matters very little when learning the fundamentals like posture, flexion, balance; or even further on to pressure, tipping etc. However, modern skis are easier to learn on simply coz they are shorter, lighter and easier to manage, so progress can be quicker (witness FC & Handman).
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I don't know much about skis, and have had minimal instruction, but I haven't had the bigger picture explained as to what skills/habits to maintain & blend into the mix & what to discard. I do know that Sideslipping IMHO has been a vital bridge in my journey. Now I am starting to "carve" & I was told my ability to rotate the ski will be needed later. I imagine on steeps n narrows where carving is of little or no use ?
TBH I just want to see Handman ski
Please share a thread/link/vid anyone? I can't find him
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| jjc james wrote: |
When teaching very small kids, at first i thought the ones that turned up on straight skis off ebay were getting the short straw.
9 times out of ten they picked up a snow plough and turning much quicker, therefore progressing onto the mountain faster. |
I've seen this while teaching Adults. Straight ski's certainly aren't a block at the beginner level (and sets them up nicely for racing FIS GS later on  ).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| franzClammer wrote: |
| Now I am starting to "carve" & I was told my ability to rotate the ski will be needed later. |
No, that's not correct. Steering the skis by rotating/twisting/skidding them is a necessary skill for all skiers, not a more advanced technique that comes 'after' carving. Steering your skis with a large element of rotation means you ski more slowly than just using your edges, so generally skiers will use more rotary control when they are in the first stage of learning, only moving on to more of a clean carve when they have the skills and the confidence to control higher speeds.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| rob@rar, but it would keep all the grockles out of the powder leaving more for me and fatbob! |
Well there is that, which would indeed be welcome
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| franzClammer wrote: |
| Now I am starting to "carve" & I was told my ability to rotate the ski will be needed later. |
No, that's not correct. Steering the skis by rotating/twisting/skidding them is a necessary skill for all skiers, not a more advanced technique that comes 'after' carving. Steering your skis with a large element of rotation means you ski more slowly than just using your edges, so generally skiers will use more rotary control when they are in the first stage of learning, only moving on to more of a clean carve when they have the skills and the confidence to control higher speeds. |
Thanks for clarrifying that
Now where's this Handman? .....Send forth your champion
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You know it makes sense.
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Just looking round the slopes, a fair number of skiers making their way safely down a mountain (especially on anything steeper than a nice cruisy blue run) are nowhere near doing any carving.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FAQ
