I've read a lot about getting grip early in the turn and the progression up the BASI levels requires the trainee to demonstrate grip earlier and earlier in the turn.
I've been thinking about this and trying to rationalise with the mental images I have; in particular what I believe is excellent technique as demonstrated by Jaz Lamb of BASS in this video:
This video is quite useful as it gives a close up of the skis and from what I can make out the combination of his counter and blocking (in Ron LeMaster speak) pole plant is resulting in the unwinding of the torque accumulated in his trunk / core such that Jaz is getting "grip" on or shortly after the fall line.
So my questions are:
1) am I missing something?
2) is early grip more relevant for long rather than short radius turns?
Thanks
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I always think of early grip as occurring before the fall line, even at the top of the turn. If so, then I do not think it is possible with the 'crossunder' type of turns in this vid, but is possible in short turns, particularly working across the fall line.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I found the best way to gain early grip and not after the fall line, was to imagine myself in a corridor and imagine spraying the corridor wall with snow then allowing the skis to bounce off the imaginary corridor wall and repeat the other side. All put together with a firm pole plant....worked for me.
You have to be careful to distinguish between pivoted short turns (like in the video above) and carved short turns (like in this one http://youtube.com/v/JuZJim10RXA ).
With carved short turns it is necessary to establish early grip (and pressure) well above the fall-line. When pivoting, on or after the fall-line is sufficient.
I am not saying either turn type is "better" or more desirable - depends on your sidecut and the turn radius - or course set.
In fact, since that 2010 Hirscher footage was shot, WC SL gate distances have tended to come down, so more pivoting is now necessary again.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
abd, if your trying to understand it in BASI terms, watch the BASI levels posted onto youtube....
abd, I don't think that releasing the torque is contributing much to the setup phase of Jaz's turns. He's mainly steering the first part of his turn by actively rotating the skis with his feet. He then balances against his skis around the fall line, getting plenty of grip through until he releases his edges for the next transition.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
kitenski wrote:
and WTF is a blocking pole plant
A vital part of French/Italian lift queue etiquette.
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After all it is free
kitenski wrote:
and WTF is a blocking pole plant
A vital part of French/Italian lift queue etiquette.
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kitenski wrote:
and WTF is a blocking pole plant
A vital part of French/Italian lift queue etiquette.
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fatbob,
(altho etiquette is much better in Italy)
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Martin Bell wrote:
You have to be careful to distinguish between pivoted short turns (like in the video above) and carved short turns (like in this one http://youtube.com/v/JuZJim10RXA ).
With carved short turns it is necessary to establish early grip (and pressure) well above the fall-line. When pivoting, on or after the fall-line is sufficient.
I am not saying either turn type is "better" or more desirable - depends on your sidecut and the turn radius - or course set.
In fact, since that 2010 Hirscher footage was shot, WC SL gate distances have tended to come down, so more pivoting is now necessary again.
Which is a problem when it comes to moving up the ranks of International Instructor Qualifications.
I know pivoting is encouraged more rather than just angulation and relying on the skis radius and bend to turn.
When doing my qualifications I've been told to steer and pivot more rather than just rely on the latter...which for me makes more sense... it's a nightmare tbh.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I dont think pivoting is "encouraged more" but may be necessary depending what size of turn you are making. Impossible to cleanly carve a long arc short radius turn in a narrow corridor so some active steering is needed. The pivot entry highlighted in the video is more a tactical racing move to not dump speed by skidding in the belly of the turn and shows a high degree of skill so does creep into BASI instructor training at the higher levels. Cloudburst and horseshoe turns are fun (and very scary) at speed
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
they may actually be called horse twists... no idea why.. similar to cloudbursts but a more entry level. In a fast traverse flatten and twist the feet so that you power slide across the hill on a flat ski. then try it at speed in traverse again but pointing skis downhill and then back to direction of travel and repeat. do a few of these twisting movements faster and faster and then have a go at cloudbursts which are a similar movement but during a carved turn.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
kitenski
and WTF is a blocking pole plant
I don't have my copy of Ron LeMaster's Ultimate Skiing to hand, though this article (http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/pole_plant.htm) makes reference to it in the context of what not to do in modern race technique.
From what I recall, its essentially blocking the upper body and giving a platform around which the counter (torque thats built up in the trunk & upper body) can unwind resulting in the legs pivoting towards and then across the fall line.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
abd wrote:
Quote:
kitenski
and WTF is a blocking pole plant
I don't have my copy of Ron LeMaster's Ultimate Skiing to hand, though this article (http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/pole_plant.htm) makes reference to it in the context of what not to do in modern race technique.
From what I recall, its essentially blocking the upper body and giving a platform around which the counter (torque thats built up in the trunk & upper body) can unwind resulting in the legs pivoting towards and then across the fall line.
Any chance of a translation into English
I think you are massively over complicating it and if not careful you'll get bogged down in technical and confusing terminology. Your also reading very complex racing terminology/website links
The link you mention above says "Modern racing technique, however, is all about striving for linked clean arcs. For this, neither a pronounced countered position, nor blocking pole plants are needed"
So what is it you are trying to achieve/improve on?
Do you have any video of you skiing?
What has an instructor recently said in relation to question 1? ie what should you work on??
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 25-07-13 12:36; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I barely know what I'm talking about; there are many on here that know far, far, far more than I!
I would say, yes to steeps, and also probably to moguls.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
abd, sorry, edited my reply, and asked some questions......about what your trying to achieve?
I dont think pivoting is "encouraged more" but may be necessary depending what size of turn you are making. Impossible to cleanly carve a long arc short radius turn in a narrow corridor so some active steering is needed. The pivot entry highlighted in the video is more a tactical racing move to not dump speed by skidding in the belly of the turn and shows a high degree of skill so does creep into BASI instructor training at the higher levels. Cloudburst and horseshoe turns are fun (and very scary) at speed
I've definitely been encouraged more. I've been told they are actually looking at you to actively 'steer' the skis, rather than using the ski's radius shape, angulation and pressure control.
Obviously the latter is used more in Racing as you wish to increase and maintain speed.
When I did my Eurotest training last week I was told to stop skiing like a Ski Instructor and rely more on angulation and pressure than 'Steering' as it loses speed.
Obviously as you said though...pivoting and steering needs to come in at any point depending on what's in front of you and to maintain control.
However...when it comes to 'Qualifications' I've been told Conductors are looking for pivoting and steering with the lower body.
Perhaps others are having different messages. I suppose it's all down to what Organisation you are with.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
spud, again comes down to what you are trying to do. In your GS course on >21 M rad boards you want to use the sidecut and pressure the ski as that what the turn shape dictates. No need for rotation unless your late, there is a bananna gate etc.. Take the same ski in an SL course and you will need to pivot it. Your coach (emma or mikey?) is right in a race course situation but I doubt that during long radius turns in an exam situation they are looking for rotation to make the ski turn. Think context of what is being asked of you during your instructor training. Who is your training body and at what level are you referring to out of interest?
Which is a problem when it comes to moving up the ranks of International Instructor Qualifications.
I know pivoting is encouraged more rather than just angulation and relying on the skis radius and bend to turn.
When doing my qualifications I've been told to steer and pivot more rather than just rely on the latter...which for me makes more sense... it's a nightmare tbh.
It would be interesting to know if the BASI run as shown would meet the PSIA standard and vice versa. Note this isn't a 'would a BASI 4 be good enough to pass the PSIA 3' flame bait question . I assume either would have the skills to modify their skiing as required. It could just be as simple as BASI don't allow slalom skis on the exam!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The corridor's much wider on the PSIA video which reflects the difference between their largely carved short turns and the largely pivoted BASI turns. The cynic in me says it also reflects the difference between a realistic technique for skiing on nice grippy North American snow and a suitable technique for crappy European hardpack
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Raceplate, The BASI video states that the corridor can be up to 4m, the demo in it and in the BASS video at the start of the thread look a lot less than that to me.
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rjs wrote:
Raceplate, The BASI video states that the corridor can be up to 4m, the demo in it and in the BASS video at the start of the thread look a lot less than that to me.
That was my point wasn't it? The BASI corridor is clearly narrower than the PSIA one and reflects a suitable technique for that width?
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Raceplate wrote:
rjs wrote:
Raceplate, The BASI video states that the corridor can be up to 4m, the demo in it and in the BASS video at the start of the thread look a lot less than that to me.
That was my point wasn't it? The BASI corridor is clearly narrower than the PSIA one and reflects a suitable technique for that width?
The stated requirements are basically the same for both BASI and PSIA though.
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rjs wrote:
The stated requirements are basically the same for both BASI and PSIA though.
They might be but if these are the official videos of the required standards they convey completely different techniques. The PSIA guy in black from about 1.40 onwards looks like he's skiing about a 6m corridor in short, mostly carved turns. Completely different to the BASI guy doing his short pivoted turns in about a 3m corridor.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Surely more 'grip' equals more edge angle, thus a very pivoted turn is unlikely to have much grip above the fall line. PSIA turns definitely looking better than BASI there!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Some really good stuff here youtube.com/v/7rtzwqDeSGg
Doesnt include BASI but lots of other nations. Swiss are great, freedom in their movements.
PSG
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Swiss look quite loose n relaxed. Thought the canucks looked the best.
These things depend so much on who the skier happens to be. They should showcase a bunch of recent L2s n L3s to really see their 'system' at work at the grassroots.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
ALQ wrote:
Swiss look quite loose n relaxed. Thought the canucks looked the best.
These things depend so much on who the skier happens to be. They should showcase a bunch of recent L2s n L3s to really see their 'system' at work at the grassroots.
Interesting you should say that... word on the street is that the CSIA are looking to demonstrate each level of skiing using L1's, L2's, L3's and L4's depending on what level is being shown.
In other words you won't get an L4 demonstrating L2 standards... only an L2 showing what the standard is...etc.
Not being bias...but I also prefer the Canucks way. Love the Swiss as well...although they are all about getting the hip on the floor it seems. BASI for me just looks to rigid... each to their own of course.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
ALQ wrote:
Swiss look quite loose n relaxed. Thought the canucks looked the best.
These things depend so much on who the skier happens to be. They should showcase a bunch of recent L2s n L3s to really see their 'system' at work at the grassroots.
Exactly, though I think some systems have more of a defined 'look' compared to others, the few swiss guys I work with all have those loose hands and mad inclination, whilst the americans are more of a mix of styles. Talking to one of my friends who was at Interski, he reckoned JF Beaulieu (Canada) was one of the real stand out skiers, so that's a strong reason why the Canadians look better, it's not like they all ski like him!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
spud wrote:
Love the Swiss as well...although they are all about getting the hip on the floor it seems.
That's what everyone should be about!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spud wrote:
Interesting you should say that... word on the street is that the CSIA are looking to demonstrate each level of skiing using L1's, L2's, L3's and L4's depending on what level is being shown.
Love the Swiss as well...although they are all about getting the hip on the floor it seems.
That's what everyone should be about!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
A bit late to this thread, but may I ask a stupid question that I could probably answer for myself if I thought about it ?
When posters here refer to getting grip 'before the fall line', what precisely are they referring to ? I ask because the number of fall lines is infinite. Put it another way, there will always be a fall line directly beneath the skiers feet.
Sometimes an exercise may be determined by a particular defined fall line, possibly down the middle of a corridor.
Are such phrases as 'above the fall line' and 'after the fall line' referring to the moment when the tangent of the ski is parallel with the fall line which may be drawn between the skier's feet ?
Anyway, the answer is 'posture', if that doesn't work, it's 'timing'.
thirty06, the only definition of fall line that I've ever heard is the moment during the turn at which the skis point directly down the slope. Typically this would be about half way around the turn, or as you describe, the moment at which the tangent of the skis is parallel to the slope's fall line.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Isn't it the line you take when you end up on your butt?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Put a ball on the hill, let it go. Ignoring wind, and things it hits on the way down, and so on, the fall line is the route it follows to the bottom. Put another way it's what most people would call "straight down the hill".
A slightly sad illustration of fall line I saw once was a snowboard that had escaped its owner and was careering off down the mountain by itself (out of bounds, away from any pistes) already a good mile away and still picking up speed.
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thirty06 wrote:
A bit late to this thread, but may I ask a stupid question that I could probably answer for myself if I thought about it ?
When posters here refer to getting grip 'before the fall line', what precisely are they referring to ? I ask because the number of fall lines is infinite. Put it another way, there will always be a fall line directly beneath the skiers feet.
Sometimes an exercise may be determined by a particular defined fall line, possibly down the middle of a corridor.
Are such phrases as 'above the fall line' and 'after the fall line' referring to the moment when the tangent of the ski is parallel with the fall line which may be drawn between the skier's feet ?
Anyway, the answer is 'posture', if that doesn't work, it's 'timing'.
The fall line is skis pointing down the hill, simple.
The answer is not 'posture' or 'timing', these are very important, but it's possible to make a skidded short turn with a flat ski, with perfect timing and posture, and still not find any grip until the end of the turn. Grip equals edge angle, get edge angle early in the turn, you have early grip.
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Big issue is that gripping before the fall line locks you into the turn radius defined by your angle/speed/ski and whatever else.... sometimes this just isn't short enough.... enter "turning-the-ski"/"drift-and-lock" whatever you want to call it.
Best solution i have found is get your skis to the prefered angle after the cross over/under and then jam the shovel of your ski into the snow, get them nice and bent before the grippy waist engages and you're locked into your carve... little unpredictable at first but shortens the turn lots
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
. I assume either would have the skills to modify their skiing as required. It could just be as simple as BASI don't allow slalom skis on the exam!