 Poster: A snowHead
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Are there any of you guys particulary drawn to the Spaceframe concept on the salomon boots.
Has it:
Intreagued you? (
Improved the image of the brand?
Damaged the image of the brand?
Made you buy them/try them?
How do you view Salomon's place in the industry today? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've wondered what the justfication is (anything more than just marketing?). Hasn't changed my opinion of Salomon boots, or encouraged/discouraged me from buying.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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they certainly arroused my curiosity but I only bought boots last year so I shouldn't need new ones this year and haven't tried them
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they look cool (imo - I can appriciate the design might be.. polarising..  ) - ummm.. and; if I was being total superficial thats probably enough to sway me into buying a pair ahead of another pair of equally well fitting, similary priced boots.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| IanB wrote: |
| they look cool |
Or cold? Do the holes actually go all the way through to the liners? Could a small amount of snow get into the shell?
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| IanB wrote: |
| they look cool |
Or cold? Do the holes actually go all the way through to the liners? Could a small amount of snow get into the shell? |
Nope, there's a membrane moulded into the shell. I guess you could pierce it, however it's very tough. Doesn't burn when we stretch it either
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, no opinion. They have to invent something don't they? Like american cars - "do you have the '05 model"?
I don't think much of the colours though.
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Agreed Dave. I have to say when we're buying, function and fit come first. After that we choose what we hope will be the better colour. This years boots look awsome. The first time in many years the best boots look the best. However as you say, Salomon have let themselves bown badly this year.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Intrigued, yes. Reminiscent of bicycle 'drillium' from the '70s. (For those readers unfamiliar with the term, Frank Spivey was a master of this, here is one of his bikes, page 1 and 2 include the jigs he used. I want to be like him when I grow up.)
I tried them on, but did not do any outside edge balancing exercises with them.
They didn't make sense to me when I first saw them, until I realised that the usefulness was really for boots where the lower edge of the boot cuff meets the upper surface of the lower boot directly.
That's when I started wondering how much free space was actually available around the instep for flexing of the boot lower shell. At which point I decided that the lower cuff flex, cuff to lower positioning, and lower shell flex were a cooperative multipart system, and thought that I would have experimented with various stiffness of plastic at the lower cuff, asymmetrical contact profile, and possibly even asymmetrical notching of the cuff along the lines of what was discussed here (except with poss. quite narrower notches) before playing with lower shell flex.
But, of course, I couldn't resist temptation so I made a jig for a pre-bi-injection boot and drilled it out and backed the inside with Surlyn tape. So far I've only done the left boot, I think I'll try it this way for starters.
It might be interesting on telemark boots too.
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Checked out that site, very, well, stars and stripes. Why use two sentences when sixty five is already brief. Time-after-time, subjective issues are over descussed in these chat rooms. Can't see the point, want to see the feet.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, its true, really only three concepts in that entire thread.
Brief? Well, it could be, but its better to phrase one concept 19 different ways so even us thickies can find something to understand.
Trains the posters in versatility of mind, wot?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Marketing gimmick...!
Can't see the point ...
Do Racers use them? Not comparing myself to a racer but do they serve any purpose apart from must haves this year...?
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Mrs P tried some on t'other day. She spent ages trying to work out if she could feel any difference when flexing the boot compared to others, but couldn't . I could see the boot moving more significantly over the 'spaced' area than other boots.
Would I care if my boots do it? No. My alpine boots are 03/04 Pro Models. If I were to replace them I would get the Guns regardless, the shell fits my foot beautifully.
Does it alter my perception of the brand? Some, but only if I stop to think about it. I did some research a few years ago at the DM Ski Show and asked 200 people a bunch of questions, mainly about their skiing holiday habits, one of the other questions was what is the first brand that comes into your head when you think about skiing. 176 people said Salomon. Salomon have their skis in so many racks, pretty much everything snow.
I’m normally a fan of smaller brands, independents and all that. However I think Salomon are great, they’ve been around for as long as I remember, and even if not the oldest, they’re certainly the most prolific in term of consumer penetration.
They make some really good gear. I like their ski boots & bindings and their skis are OK. (They should make more skis like the AK S-Lab). They make some of the best snowboard bases, even if the graphics suck.
Salomon appear to be putting lots of money into R&D and even if it’s not doing much it’s nice to see them putting ‘new’ things in to their range. Some of these gimmicks work, some of them don’t.
They have their knockers, but then we all do…
For such a big player I like Solly, I hope they keep letting smaller fish play in the pond.
Anyone still awake?
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks J.T. for getting this thread back on track.
The principal came from the race dept. A couple of swiss guys were working on even-weighting both skis. Apparently they were struggling to combine the physical principals of training, with the technology of their equipment. The result was that there was too much lateral(outside) pressure on the uphill ski too early in the turn. So, their technician applied the 'COMPREX' approach, built a jig and went trigger happy on their shells. The lateral part of the shell would now compress when subject to the same force as the medial(inside) alowing the uphill ski to have less effect early. Careful work was applied little by little until the skiiers were able to apply the same forces, left and right without causing too much lateral pressure too early to the skis. It worked, for them, their times improved. However sometimes, seeing a pretty girl who says 'hi' outside the start tent seems to work often too.
So the concept was born, nurtured and marketed by the NIKE of the ski industry, Salomon.
The same guys are now experiementing with more holes, this time all the way up the cuff. You have been warned.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| parlor wrote: |
Mrs P tried some on t'other day. She spent ages trying to work out if she could feel any difference when flexing the boot compared to others, but couldn't . I could see the boot moving more significantly over the 'spaced' area than other boots.
Would I care if my boots do it? No. My alpine boots are 03/04 Pro Models. If I were to replace them I would get the Guns regardless, the shell fits my foot beautifully.
Does it alter my perception of the brand? Some, but only if I stop to think about it. I did some research a few years ago at the DM Ski Show and asked 200 people a bunch of questions, mainly about their skiing holiday habits, one of the other questions was what is the first brand that comes into your head when you think about skiing. 176 people said Salomon. Salomon have their skis in so many racks, pretty much everything snow.
I’m normally a fan of smaller brands, independents and all that. However I think Salomon are great, they’ve been around for as long as I remember, and even if not the oldest, they’re certainly the most prolific in term of consumer penetration.
They make some really good gear. I like their ski boots & bindings and their skis are OK. (They should make more skis like the AK S-Lab). They make some of the best snowboard bases, even if the graphics suck.
Salomon appear to be putting lots of money into R&D and even if it’s not doing much it’s nice to see them putting ‘new’ things in to their range. Some of these gimmicks work, some of them don’t.
They have their knockers, but then we all do…
For such a big player I like Solly, I hope they keep letting smaller fish play in the pond.
Anyone still awake? |
Parlor, you win 'Best answer'. Congratulations, someone actually answered the thread as asked.( Not wishing to be siarcastic, but i did ask the question to get this kind of feed back.)
BIG, BIG, changes coming your way, Salomon will reward your loyalty and objectivity.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You mean my time honoured ironic wit wasn't the goal.
Didn't intrigue, yet another marketing gimmick. I am deeply distrustful of the concept that you can take race-tuning and convert it to the masses without the masses complaining (these days anyway). Put a spoiler and go faster stripes on a Ford Focus and what have you got? A customer with a smaller bank account.
Sadly, Salomon is now simply a brand. A name backed by all the passion and soul of Adidas. Oops, sorry, all the passion and soul of Amer. ("Who?" - Ed) but that's OK, as they'll probably have sold the passion and sole along (sorry, soul) with the ski jigs - presumably they haven't sold jigs without soles or bases as that would be silly. Although, maybe they're spinning the fashion and sole off as a "virtual" ski company. Prada anyone?
We're all just little fish in the big marketing cats fishbowl.
How many people are going to ski Salomon boots this year and remark to their mates that their inside ski is reacting so much more smoothly now that their boots have a nice Hexcel (remember them? The skis with the honeycomb middle?) pattern on the side?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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news article dredged up by Google,
"By selling Salomon, Adidas wants to focus much more on running shoes where it competes directly with arch-rival and world leader, Nike." http://www.todayonline.com/articles/77985.asp
Oh really. As opposed to "Adidas believes Amer is paying way more that Salomon is likely to be worth in 6 months time and is well chuffed to be leaving the building before the final curtain".
Which do we think is more likely?
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Word is that Amer are very much going to breathe life back into the heart of Salomon. The people at Salomon are very passionate, the marketing people were just very strong. Nike and Adidas can keep that going. Amer and Salomon, for me can only get stronger in terms of quality they've pratically been together since day one. Lets hope it's us that benifit, some how, it's there i worry.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Will the Spaceframe and similar asymmetry be computed as part of a 'standardised flex index' between manufacturers?
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Should i say? Or more, how can i say?
There is a large amount of resistance from one of the larger ski companies to play ball. It will be optional for all the manufactures, however all but one were at the last meeting. Needless to say the said manufaturer's excuses, were full of holes.
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| Quote: |
| Salomon will reward your loyalty and objectivity. |
Hmmmm Solly could make my day with a pair of S-Lab 203s
They could make a dream come true with:
A twin with maybe 5mm more in the tail.
130mm tip
105mm waist
125mm tails
Stiff as DP on viagra.
SMALLZOOKEEPER, you could make me very happy by telling me the squads are the 98... please let them be 98s... 
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I've just been to Profeet in London and seen the Salomons with the holes, I've absolutely no idea whether they're any good but if I was going for looks alone I'd have bought the Rossignol Bandits which were green! Sounds horrible but looked great the only problem was they didn't have any matching one piece baggy suits to go with them.
Fortunately the bloke there knew what he was doing and put me into the Technica Diabolo Flames, they fit very well indeed (although haven't skiied in them yet) and by coincidence go very nicely with my X-screams!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Jack Hallam wrote: |
SMALLZOOKEEPER, I've just been to Profeet in London and seen the Salomons with the holes, I've absolutely no idea whether they're any good but if I was going for looks alone I'd have bought the Rossignol Bandits which were green! Sounds horrible but looked great the only problem was they didn't have any matching one piece baggy suits to go with them.
Fortunately the bloke there knew what he was doing and put me into the Technica Diabolo Flames, they fit very well indeed (although haven't skiied in them yet) and by coincidence go very nicely with my X-screams! |
It's a terrible boot, but for me too, the best looking for this year.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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parlor, Yep, they spent a lot of time getting these right and hopefully this will make a big difference. I'm going to go to X-scape a few times and try them. The problem I see is that I'm not sure exactly what is a "normal" level of pain to have and I wonder if I'm chasing a holy grail, I'm not sure what the outcome will be but I got to talk skiing all day and bought new gear to play with, so all in all a day well spent!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Christ, I hope you mean the Rossignol is terrible, otherwise I'll have to get back on the train again and go back down to London!
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
I'm a big Salomon fan, love my CrossMax skis and my 8 year old Salomon boots which need replacing.
The holes put me off frankly. I don't know what I would do if they proved to be the best fit, because I'm not sure I can believe that with the holes they will be as durable as my current boots. Function over appearance every time, but do they function? I remember the good old Hexcel and Hexcellerator skis that didn't pass the durability muster. I'm suspicious this is marketing ahead of function, like the Nike shoes with springs in the heels.
I (and my bank manager) have decided to coax the old boots through another 3 weeks this winter and see what offerings there are next season.
Does anyone have any views on plastic fatigue. 2 friends with newer boots have snapped the heel pieces off whilst out on the slopes on Rossi boots in the last season in the very cold January temperatures. Is this common? any brands in particular?
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You know it makes sense.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Do the spaceframe holes make the boot colder?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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parlor, yes baby, yes, yes yeeees! S-Lab 203s? what a top idea. Bring back skis that you need to ski on... he he he
Martin Nicholas, not sure I believe you (remembering hexcels...) do you remember "Hot Cats" too?
Re plastoc fatigue, I thin you have a good point. A mate broke Tecnica icons (the first ones) after about 4 weeks. Boots just broke in half around the lower shell. Tecnica UK quite good about replacing and the odd mutter of "not another pair..."
That said, I adore Tecnica, especially the orange ones. On my 3rd pair with no problems (except the new colours don't match my socks).
I would be amazed if any brand/model had any systematic problem, however, I suspect you do get the odd bad batch.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Jack Hallam wrote: |
| Fortunately the bloke there knew what he was doing and put me into the Technica Diabolo Flames, they fit very well indeed (although haven't skiied in them yet) and by coincidence go very nicely with my X-screams! |
But the Fire's would have been an even better match 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think the new boots look great. Great styling, miles better than last year.
It has improved my image of the brand slightly - as I thought that for the most part last years boots were incredibly boring and bland.
I was stupid enough to buy my first ski boots from a good fitter, but one who let me choose my boot by brand and price. Luckily salomon boots fit me very well, and since buying my 1080s my shin problems have diminished and i'm extremely happy. That said i didn't have my 1080s heat-moulded (as i bought them off the internet) and it took a week for them to be really comfy.
I would never buy a salomon ski though. Their reputation amongst skiers who are very abusive to their skis is incredibly poor. Many, many complaints about the pathetically soft cores. This worries me. I would consider buying some of their technical clothing, but probably not at full price.
I'm a big fan of wearing last years kit safe in the knowledge it cost me half the price. I never buy any kit at full price, except Oakleys, but i do upgrade each year. Being a year behind nowadays is not a big problem - in my opinion.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Intreagued you? Yep, why the hell would you want holes in a boot?
Improved the image of the brand? No change, always wary of market leaders who mix R&D with sales hype.
Damaged the image of the brand? No more than already damaged.
Made you buy them/try them? If they fitted and had decent independant reviews.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Does the boot with hole have the same amount of flex reduction from cold as a solid walled boot has. Or is this where the flex holes come into their own. I have never tried the boots.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd suspect from my "punter view" that they're a good marketing gimmick like many backed by some tech. Once other manufacturers start copying then I'd believe more.
My thoughts deriving from mates who thought drilled lightweight mountain bike parts were the way forward is that they'd be more likely to crack round the honeycomb though I guess this doesn't really flex.
Having said that I have had great experiences with Salomon ski and Snowboard boots (although it would be nice if they could make a snowboard boot that didn't fall apart after 50 days use!) so I'd try them if ski boot demos were a realistic proposition. Actually if I was in the market for a new pair of boots I'd try all brands so the gimmick aspect would be wasted on me.
I've a lot of respect for some of Salomon's market leading ideas - who'd have believed a mass market twin tip fat ski 5 years ago?- but wouldn't buy their skis because no one who puts in heavy use has good things to say about durability. I've ridden demo snowboards too - best base in the industry.
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FAQ
