Wanted exercises for hip block (not over rotation) seen a reasonable amount in very good skiers moving from many years of longer ski morphology to very short carvers (particularly in slalom).
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Cynic, to clarify, when you say 'hip block' what is it you are seeing in your skiers?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
AndAnotherThing.., hip does not rotate sufficiently so skis can scissor
Do you mean hips not having sufficient counter aka separation? Often I see people pushing their outside hip out (not allowing it to move inside the turn) with a straight leg in order to achieve edge angle, is this what you mean?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Dunno if you are looking for more esoteric exercises but Javelin turns during more agressive carved turns tend to move the hips into the right angle for a racing turn..
I just use pivot slips but at really low speed, you can give them feedback on whether they are rotating the pelvis enough while they are doing it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Two slightly different exercises that I use for this are are 'javelin wedge stop' (not really sure of it's name) and 'pole hips' (again, not sure of the name)
Javelin wedge stop begins in a wedge, you then lift the inside tip, placing the tail on the ground, then steer the outside leg under the tip of the outside ski. The idea is that the tail of the inside ski stabilises the hip, allowing the student to feel the outside steering. Easiest to do slowly, and down the fall line. Better than a javelin turn because people are less nervous at low speeds, also Javelins are actually pretty tricky, and most people do them wrong.
Pole hips, link your poles through the straps, one in front, one behind, then push down so the poles are on the hips. Just ski a regular performance basic parallel and the poles give the student more awareness of what's going on with their hips. The idea being that they don't steer with their hips but with their legs. You can get them to put their hands on the poles as well.
After all it is free
After all it is free
rjs, I use these as a diagnostic for pelvic rotation, where do you go next for increasing pelvic rotation in very good skiers whom "only lack" this in short radius?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
jimmer, like your inside ski tip lift javelin will try that, slightly more stability than my pull back the inside ski in the steering phase in gates (not yet attempted). Like WS's pick up the buttock and heave it across but this does ingrain leg and feet movement after you have let go of your bum.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Cynic, What is a short radius turn ? The only change I make in my own skiing as I reduce the radius of a turn is to switch from mostly crossing over to mostly crossing under.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rjs, I think that is precisely where the problem lies.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
Javelin wedge stop begins in a wedge, you then lift the inside tip, placing the tail on the ground, then steer the outside leg under the tip of the outside ski. The idea is that the tail of the inside ski stabilises the hip, allowing the student to feel the outside steering. Easiest to do slowly, and down the fall line. Better than a javelin turn because people are less nervous at low speeds, also Javelins are actually pretty tricky, and most people do them wrong.
jimmer, snap! funny enough doing those on Saturday! I then progress to lifted ski parallel to deck to encourage hip centred over the feet... rarely use javelins in long turns as they do them wrong...
rjs snap as well and progress to pivot slips with poles held along belt buckle resting on hip bones to reduce hip swinging.
Cynic, curious why do you want to introduce pelvic rotation in shorts? I spend a lot of time trying to eliminate this and keeping skiers as square to the ski for as long as possible. For me I find that consciously trying to counter with the pelvis in shorts causes more problems than it solves. It isnt until rather large edge angles come in that the pelvis naturally starts to counter and this should be a consequence of high edge angles not the way to achieve them imv. most hip blockage I see comes from people overly flexed at the knee joint and in a aft state rather than having the hips over the boots
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimottaret wrote:
Quote:
Javelin wedge stop begins in a wedge, you then lift the inside tip, placing the tail on the ground, then steer the outside leg under the tip of the outside ski. The idea is that the tail of the inside ski stabilises the hip, allowing the student to feel the outside steering. Easiest to do slowly, and down the fall line. Better than a javelin turn because people are less nervous at low speeds, also Javelins are actually pretty tricky, and most people do them wrong.
jimmer, snap! funny enough doing those on Saturday! I then progress to lifted ski parallel to deck to encourage hip centred over the feet... rarely use javelins in long turns as they do them wrong...
rjs snap as well and progress to pivot slips with poles held along belt buckle resting on hip bones to reduce hip swinging.
Cynic, curious why do you want to introduce pelvic rotation in shorts? I spend a lot of time trying to eliminate this and keeping skiers as square to the ski for as long as possible. For me I find that consciously trying to counter with the pelvis in shorts causes more problems than it solves. It isnt until rather large edge angles come in that the pelvis naturally starts to counter and this should be a consequence of high edge angles not the way to achieve them imv. most hip blockage I see comes from people overly flexed at the knee joint and in a aft state rather than having the hips over the boots
I think whether you want hip counter (the opposite of hip block?) depends on the method you're using to achieve edge angles, if you are full body inclining, you're going stay a lot squarer to your skis, whereas if you are using, or want to use, hip angulation you'll need more counter. Most people use a mix of both depending on the desired outcome, I find in short turns using more hip angulation allows you to get on the outside ski earlier and get higher angles early as well, if you're square in a short turn it's really tough to time correctly as whole body inclination requires more movement.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
skimottaret, I think you are arguing from a BASI viewpoint not that of a race coach.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
not really, my old race boss was very keen on keeping as square as long as possible and as the lateral separation builds then the counter comes in. A view i share from a race perspective. I think we may have had this discussion a while back with Fastman and may be worth revisiting that thread... I have an open mind but you have to be pretty skilled to "counter on command" effectively
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
skimottaret, I don't see any racers keeping completely square to their skis, they keep their body above the waist quiet and just rotate their pelvis to be square to their skis, works for me.
The aim of the pivot slip drill I described above is to encourage rotation of the pelvis, I wouldn't follow it up with a drill to reduce that rotation such as holding a pole against the hip bones.
My guess is that most punters don't have the core strength to be able to rotate their pelvis relative to their upper body and that BASI teach what has been found to work.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rjs, will think that over thanks...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thank you some good pointers I have some pictures of racers demonstrating the problem, I will look at them with your diagnosis.
skimottaret, sadly not, but after some of advice posted and physically reconstructing the photos with assistance of another instructor we have realised the problem is when moving to block through gate the weight is moving across onto the inside ski; it appeared to me to be a lack of hip rotation when in fact it proved to be the outside ski is in fact unweighted.
Looks like slips and under ski javelins are the way to go thank you for your help.
By the way this is a young Club type stuff.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Cynic, The skis will scissor because of weight on the inside ski but I usually find that more pelvis rotation helps to fix it.
Cynic, are they dropping the non blocking hand? and is this on a dry slope ?
I see a lot of that and tends to get em on the inside too much... If they are just starting to block perhaps try using a ski pole handlebar fashion while going through the gates to keep shoulders and hands more level...
rjs great clip but i have to say im not seeing what you indicate.. can you illuminate?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rjs, are you trying to point out that she keeps her pelvis square(ish) to her skis but her body above her waist mainly countered?
Cynic, I'm probably being dense. Was your original question about skiers who rotated their pelvises to be square to the skis (which shouldn't cause scissoring/sagittal split/inside tip lead) or who rotated their pelvises to face down the fall line (which could cause scissoring)?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
slikedges wrote:
rjs, are you trying to point out that she keeps her pelvis square(ish) to her skis but her body above her waist mainly countered?
Yes.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Great clip, I'll be watching that over and over again. Javelin wedge sounds good, I'll give that a go when I'm next at Hemel.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rjs, Cheers for the clip. I recall shooting some vidio from a few years ago when we were playing with this and I seem to remember doing back to back runs with, and without the rotation. I'll try and find them.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Maybe I'm missing the point of why that video was posted, but that skier has a lot of hip counter.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rjs wrote:
slikedges wrote:
rjs, are you trying to point out that she keeps her pelvis square(ish) to her skis but her body above her waist mainly countered?
Yes.
I think we are saying the same thing then ? when I say square I mean to the skis
I tend to look at it less as consciously rotating the pelvis and more projecting or sliding the pelvis across the skis, or letting the skis get as wide as possible with a long leg short leg.
Perhaps it is worth discussing do skiers actively rotate the hip when performance skiing or do you actively try to do something else ?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skimottaret wrote:
Perhaps it is worth discussing do skiers actively rotate the hip when performance skiing or do you actively try to do something else ?
I actively try to prevent hip rotation
Of course the jury is out as to whether I do performance skiing
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Kenny wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
Perhaps it is worth discussing do skiers actively rotate the hip when performance skiing or do you actively try to do something else ?
I actively try to prevent hip rotation
Could you expand a bit on why you find the idea so shocking ?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
There are some pretty good exercises and explainations in these links...
spud, from your first link I like Gurshmans explanation on hip rotation and very much echoes my own thoughts..
Editor's Note: In the above images, at first glance one may get an impression that both racers appear to exhibit a significant "tip lead" (the inside ski is significantly ahead of the outside ski), especially in phases 2 and 3. We would like to emphasize that athletes DO NOT intentionally push the inside ski forward or counter-rotate the pelvis to achieve this ski alignment. Instead, tip lead develops naturally, due to extremely high edge angles developed by these top racers. Such extreme edge angles require rather large lateral separation between inside and outside feet, which in turn causes longtitudional separation of the skis (as a result of a simple anatomical fact that human knee articulates forward. Grasshoppers, for example, would exhibit a negative tip lead). Note, that as soon as the egde angle is reduced (phase 4-1), tip lead disappears, because racer's pelvis stays "square" to the skis throughout the turn (i.e. an imaginary line drawn trough hip sockets is always perpendicular to the longtitudional axis of skis). What looks like "counter-rotation" in the first Raich's photo, during the transition phase, is, in fact, an anticipatory projection of the upper body into the new turn, which happens ABOVE the pelvic girdle, in the abdominal area. This type of movement is most often seen in slalom (in steep, tight sections), seldom in GS, and virtually non-existent in superG and downhill
spud, from your first link I like Gurshmans explanation on hip rotation and very much echoes my own thoughts..
Editor's Note: In the above images, at first glance one may get an impression that both racers appear to exhibit a significant "tip lead" (the inside ski is significantly ahead of the outside ski), especially in phases 2 and 3. We would like to emphasize that athletes DO NOT intentionally push the inside ski forward or counter-rotate the pelvis to achieve this ski alignment. Instead, tip lead develops naturally, due to extremely high edge angles developed by these top racers. Such extreme edge angles require rather large lateral separation between inside and outside feet, which in turn causes longtitudional separation of the skis (as a result of a simple anatomical fact that human knee articulates forward. Grasshoppers, for example, would exhibit a negative tip lead). Note, that as soon as the egde angle is reduced (phase 4-1), tip lead disappears, because racer's pelvis stays "square" to the skis throughout the turn (i.e. an imaginary line drawn trough hip sockets is always perpendicular to the longtitudional axis of skis). What looks like "counter-rotation" in the first Raich's photo, during the transition phase, is, in fact, an anticipatory projection of the upper body into the new turn, which happens ABOVE the pelvic girdle, in the abdominal area. This type of movement is most often seen in slalom (in steep, tight sections), seldom in GS, and virtually non-existent in superG and downhill
It's the best explaination i've ever read tbh...very simply explained.
I've always been told to keep my pelvis square to the skis throughout the turn.
I've had problems in the past where my weight was too much on the inside ski, which led to my outside leg being 'left behind' and too much inside tip lead...especially causing problems in phase 4-1 of the turn.
I tried to fix this by initiating the start of the turn with my inside knee, then almost feeling like a telemark skier, steering my outside ski around the turn. This kept my pelvis square and a lot more stable/stronger and easier to intiate into the transition phase of the turn.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rjs wrote:
Kenny wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
Perhaps it is worth discussing do skiers actively rotate the hip when performance skiing or do you actively try to do something else ?
I actively try to prevent hip rotation
Could you expand a bit on why you find the idea so shocking ?
Sorry rjs I guess you want to know why I don't like to hip-rotate? I find there are more minuses than pluses for my skiing.
- Imparts a twisting action on the skis. If I do that I want to use my legs only
- Blocks my range of motion so I can't angulate as effectively
- I find it quicker in short turns to allow the femur to rotate in the pelvis rather than have the pelvis follow the skis
- Having the pelvis twist and upper body not doesn't suit my poor old back. I like to keep pelvis and shoulders pretty much pointing in the same direction
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
