 Poster: A snowHead
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The point remains that unqualified hosting or leading is against the law in France, so the judge could rule no other way. It's up to the French legislature to change the law to recognise hosting.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Few years back I had ski leading by a Brit TO (maybe Crystal or Neilsen?) who hired an ESF guy to join the group and keep it 'legal'. He tailed along at the back, made it clear he was not happy to be there, and generally wet towelled what should have been a good guiding session. No teaching was ever attempted. It was simply a guide to at least some of the huge resort (La Plagne) where newcomers appreciated the 'local' advice.
The following year, that TO ski leading service was dropped - no doubt the costs of hiring ESF reps were prohibitive - - and as I said it wasn't making things more enjoyable.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| The point remains that unqualified hosting or leading is against the law in France, so the judge could rule no other way. It's up to the French legislature to change the law to recognise hosting. |
With my pedantic hat on, reading the actual legislation that someone posted earlier on, it's not at all clear that unqualified hosting or on-piste leading is against the law, because the law as referred to simply doesn't cover it - it covers instruction and off-piste/high mountain guiding. Does France take the view that if something isn't specifically permitted, then it's not allowed? The ruling would tend to support that view. But in any case, there is, to all intents and purposes, no qualification for hosting, so how can there be such a thing as qualified hosting?
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Really looking forward to reading the judgment + davidof's tame French judge's take on it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| . Does France take the view that if something isn't specifically permitted, then it's not allowed? |
That does appear to be the gist of the napoléonic code from which most French law is still derived, though I only have the word of French acquaintances to base that on.
As for qualified hosting, as I put it, that would fall under guiding.
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Natives has a report on yesterday's proceedings, with a significant statement from the ESF ...
http://www.natives.co.uk/news/ski-guides-from-british-tour-operators-banned-in-france/6014
| Quote: |
Simon Atkinson, Director, ESF has issued the following statement:
"ESF has incorrectly been cited as being the organisation for taking the Le Ski to court for its own protectionism. It should be stressed that ESF has not brought the action in the French courts, but the Public Ministry's (French Administration) did so in pursuing action against Le Ski for non-compliance with French regulations, after a Border Police Patrol Control found them to be contravening French law.
Under Article L.212-1 of the Sport Code in France, it is legal requirement to have a qualification to teach or lead skiing if remuneration is received." |
That's just an extract.
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The TO do offer plenty of guiding in Austria via hotels instead of Chalets.
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Here's a quick resumé of the judgement. As I understand it the judges considered that it was guiding for which a salary was being paid and therefore required diploma is legally required.
http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2013/02/19/meribel-les-salaries-d-un-tour-operateur-anglais-n-avaient-pas-le-diplome-requis-pour-accompagner-sur-les-pistes
My own take on this is that following a purely logical view under French law then it was inevitable. However it belies common sense - I can't see how it can be more dangerous skiing with someone who knows the resort and is probably slightly more aware of conditions and hopefully has the pisteur's number in his phone.
As to the future - the appeals will see. I for one had a very positive experience years ago with Ski Olympic hosts - they opened up the large French resorts for me. I am still friends with 2 in the EK who have gone on to become highly qualified instructors if it goes for good it would be a shame.
I also think that this may eventually be seen as a pyrrhic gesture by ESF. Unless the commissions are huge I imagine no UK tour op will recommend ESF again - positively pushing one of the larger schools like Evo 2 or agreeing to push one each of the more boutique outfits in a resort. In turn and because of the hierarchical nature of the ESF system where the junior guys get what's left after the older ones have cherry picked the lucrative private clients I can see the these chaps getting pi$$ed off and moving to another school. As most French Folk under 30 now seem to speak excellent English (compared to 10 years ago, thanks to the net and English becoming the second language for most Europeans) this will facilitate the growth of these schools and reduce the input to the bloated bureaucracy that ESF perpetuates. As virtually all ski instructors are self employed this transition could happen quickly and see ESF slowly shrink from its current dominant position.
Just my thoughts
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Agree wholeheartedly with conrad1965, ski hosting with Esprit last year in Tignes was superb. There was 2 groups which very quickly sorted themselves out in to speeds, the advanced group was then taken around the pistes by a very peasant young man. Generally the day progressed with a quick huddle, ski hoster checking everyone OK, then saying something along the lines of see you at the next intersection / lift etc. and then we all made our own way there. At no point was anyone pushed beyond there limits, people were free to leave at any time.
As someone else has previously described it was more like having a very pleasant talking / walking piste map to guide you around the best slopes / restaurants etc. I for one will miss this element in France, sincerely hope it can come back soon, and will consider other resorts outside of France that have hosting.
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I don't know the particulars of French law but it seems the ESF were at least a "civil" party in this case, maybe because the French law requires a complainant, witness or someone impacted by the illegal activity. Otherwise they could have refused to participate if they really wanted to be neutral.
The PR release smacks of some damage limitation, it's pretty obvious to the whole world that ESF wanted to drive "hosting" out. It's sad for the visionaries in the ESF who take a different view of what they should be doing but they've only got themselves to blame if there is a backlash.
BTW I don't think there will be a backlash because most people, even those aware of it, will end up sucking it up and moving on, and ESF will still find their classes full in busy holiday weeks because they have the capacity. Would be interesting if TOs actively take a position of not booking ESF though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Unless the commissions are huge I imagine no UK tour op will recommend ESF again - positively pushing one of the larger schools like Evo 2 or agreeing to push one each of the more boutique outfits in a resort.
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Trouble is, most of ESF's competitors cost a fair bit more and many holiday-makers seem to begrudge money spent on lessons, even though they happily spend silly money on other aspects of the holiday.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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While it would be nice for a boycott I don't think it will happen due to cost (Although a big player may be able to negotiate a better deal) and capacity, most other schools are not as large as the ESF.
If I'm ever back in France working working I'll do my little boycott but overall it will not be a deal breaker.
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Im a rep for a company that takes out school kids - my pass is DEFINITELY free. Tignes, Claviere, Folgaria, its been free all over. I wander in the shop, pick up the 40 odd ski passes for the kids and teachers that are pre-booked, and get handed my free pass, which this week has "6 Giorni Gratuito" written on.... Perhaps its different for other TO's, but if i was paying for my lift pass, i wouldnt be doing this job! And i dont think the company is footing the bill either - in Tignes i handed over a booking form with somehting along the lines of "please allow our guide/representative, a free pass for the duration of the week".
Now i dont lead/instruct the kids or anything but as I've brought up before on this thread, i am encouraged to ski with the teachers. With a free lift pass, travel, insurance, food, and accomodation, plus £100 for the week, im DEFINITELY being paid!
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You know it makes sense.
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dorsetboy, whether or not companies get free staff passes, and how many they get, is usually dependent on how many paid-for punter passes they buy. Deal varies from one resort to another and from one TO to another. I don't know of any TO which requires reps to pay for their own passes, though Skiplan used to ask hotel staff to stump up for passes and then reimbuirse them at the end of their contract. Or not, if they were feeling arsy.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lizzard,
Sorry it was mentioned on an earlier page that TO's had to pay for the lift passes for their staff - was just adding that i've never seen this, although my viewpoint is fairly limited i guess. I just wonder whether this enoucragement to ski with guests will be going out the window in light of this judgement, as although all im probably doing is showing 4 or 5 teachers around a resort for the first time, and identifying suitable runs, lifts and restuarants, thats probably going to fall under "leading for renumeration".
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Unless the commissions are huge I imagine no UK tour op will recommend ESF again - positively pushing one of the larger schools like Evo 2 or agreeing to push one each of the more boutique outfits in a resort.
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Trouble is, most of ESF's competitors cost a fair bit more and many holiday-makers seem to begrudge money spent on lessons, even though they happily spend silly money on other aspects of the holiday. |
Orange zips are important.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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dorsetboy, and how would anyone other than you and said teachers know you were doing it? Bit of a joke, the whole thing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ the primary aim of that article from James Cove seems to be to stir up anti French / ESF statement.
| Quote: |
ESF has incorrectly been cited as being the organisation for taking the Le Ski to court for its own protectionism. It should be stressed that ESF has not brought the action in the French courts, but the Public Ministry's (French Administration) did so in pursuing action against Le Ski for non-compliance with French regulations, after a Border Police Patrol Control found them to be contravening French law.
Under Article L.212-1 of the Sport Code in France, it is legal requirement to have a qualification to teach or lead skiing if remuneration is received.
The laws governing sport in France say that it is illegal to 'teach, lead, guide, animate' without an appropriate professional qualification. For professionals, and in particular for ESF, security on ski slopes is of paramount importance. Wintersports touring needs to be conducted with maximum security for those being escorted on the slopes with qualified guides/instructors. France recognises the equivalent professional qualifications for instructors and guides from other countries. Any qualified ski instructor and guide is allowed to operate in France and there is cooperation between European Ski Schools, so the qualifications obtained are to reach the European standards terms of certification. Certificates to operate officially are issued directly by the Ministry of Sports. |
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 19-02-13 14:58; edited 1 time in total
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ^ that primary aim of that article from James Cove seems to be to stir up anti French / ESF statement. |
Well the local French papers seem to be in agreement that the ESF are largely responsible:
| Quote: |
| A l’origine d’une plainte déposée par l’école du ski français de Méribel... |
I understand the Ministry of Sport (or whatever) may have actually prosecuted Le Ski, but that must just be a quirk of the French legal system. If the ESF wanted nothing to do with it, as their English PR agents claim (release which Haggis_Trap has quoted above), why did they not refuse to share the ticket to court?
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Got a feeling that the spark was struck to ignite the fire by Méribel ESF in a moan to the Ministry of Sports and then sat back as a faux innocent bystander enjoying the warmth as Le Ski et alia were slowly roasted to char.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm with reded78, and conrad1965. We think hosting is a really useful part of the holiday and, as we've improved over the years, consider it more important when booking... It means we get look at the piste map less and to ski more.
On our holiday this year with Ski Olympic we did Ski Hosting most of the week with them, but then did an Off Piste Lesson with ESF. We'll be looking away from France if this does take effect next year.
I assume they'll still do it but in unmarked jackets and take up random places in the group... How could anyone distinguish between guests and hosts?
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But in any case, hosting as an activity will be gone in France until and unless e.g. ESF develop a specific qualification and get the law (or more likely a by-law) changed to accept that. I simply can't see why someone qualified to BASI 4 and equivalent or UAIGM would stoop to the pay levels of hosting when they can get the (rightly) higher levels their qualification (should) demand(s). Do our fully qualified instructors and mountain guides dispute that their qualifications would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut in terms of hosting? Something like BASI 1 without the instruction element would seem to me to be nearer the mark...
I'm still struggling to see who actually benefits from all this (usually a good way of getting to the reasoning behind it), unless some ski host in Meribel insulted an ESF guy (or the maire's brother) and it's simply revenge
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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eng_ch, It will no longer be officially offered, chalet staff will probably ski with their guest for fun, probably receive a few beers in exchange and it will continue. 
Really is a mountain out of a mole hill and will have the opposite desired effect to what the ESF wanted.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fattes13, the issue is that you then can't advertise the service to entice people to book your holidays.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| Fattes13, the issue is that you then can't advertise the service to entice people to book your holidays. |
Perhaps, but one or two contributors to this thread (presumably smaller operators) don't believe the ski hosting is a particularly big hook for punters.
What this may do is drive the larger operators to promote ski-hosting in other countries for those that seek that service. I'm not convinced it will have a huge impact either way on destination choice for any but a few.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| eng_ch,It will no longer be officially offered, chalet staff will probably ski with their guest for fun, probably receive a few beers in exchange and it will continue. |
Nope, I've been told that non is non they dare not give the ESF an inch to show that the TO's are not following the law. I'm sure some staff will with good intentions but from the TO's is a no no.
From the Planet ski article :
| Quote: |
| ESF reiterates its commitment to supporting the UK ski industry and will work with UK tour operators in finding workable solutions for lawful guiding on the French ski slopes". |
in finding workable solutions
The qualification is coming via ESF.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Surely they meant profitable? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Dwarf Vader, Think I posted that at the beginning of this farce. It will also be a two parter, written (in French) and resort specific each time. So a host will have to qualify to each resort . . . I'll also lay odds that even in the large linked areas the individual ESFs will demand a separate bit of paper for each sub-terrain 
I'm not going to complain too much as I do think anyone with responsibility for guests needs a level of quantifiable expertise.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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under a new name, If you're on the hill in any capacity for your company you have a duty of care to them as I'm sure the TO's insurers will tell you . . . in it's simplest form you don't point them to ski over a 50m cliff. How high the duty may be and how well you can or need to perform it is what's being argued here.
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| Masque wrote: |
| under a new name, If you're on the hill in any capacity for your company you have a duty of care to them as I'm sure the TO's insurers will tell you . . . |
Out of curiosity, what will they tell you? The inference being that the TO is culpable if someone has an accident whilst being "informally shown round the resort"?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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as mentioned above..the ESF say :-
''ESF reiterates its commitment to supporting the UK ski industry and will work with UK tour operators in finding workable solutions for lawful guiding on the French ski slopes".
which probably means pay ESF a cut and you can do what you want !!!!
All solved if it can be proved that the guide is not being paid for the guiding !!
But the french lawyer says the TO's would be better finding ways round it rather than fighting it, as the French will win no matter what - so he says -
the whole debacle makes fun reading...i'm still not going back to france skiing though..!!
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Chasseur, The French authorities may certainly have something to say about a 'host' being negligent and now being unqualified. The TOs will certainly have liability insurance and this ruling has made the TOs responsible for actions by their staff. It's no longer a grey area. 'Finding a way around it' is no defense in a Kermit Kourt.
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Nope, I've been told that non is non they dare not give the ESF an inch to show that the TO's are not following the law. I'm sure some staff will with good intentions but from the TO's is a no no.
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I was thinking smaller operators, but if our staff are not on our rota and are out skiing with guests then they are not working, the law is an ass and can be played as such in this case.
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Fattes13, The law may be an ass and so may the job's-worths applying it . . . but you don't argue with uniforms in France.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| À la suite d'un contrôle de l'administration, dossier dans lequel l'ESF de Méribel s'est portée partie civile, le tribunal correctionnel d’Albertville a condamné lundi à 22 500 € d’amende le responsable d’un tour opérateur anglais, dont les salariés, sans diplôme de ski reconnu en France, accompagnaient des clients sur les pistes. Par cette décision qui va faire jurisprudence, les juges ont considéré que la seule activité d’accompagnement contre rémunération, nécessitait, comme celle d’enseigner, le diplôme exigé par la loi. |
Please inwardly digest: whilst the ESF was "partie civile" to this action the "controle" (check) was carried out by the "Administration" (the French state) so please, stop the xenophobia on this forum and the demonisation of the ESF. If you don't like France, the French and don't wish to respect the laws that apply please go to another country.
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A few years ago France was the third destination of choice behind Switzerland and Austria lets hope that will be the case next year.(Altough I think the Swiss Franc value may favour a mass return to austria.)
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