 Poster: A snowHead
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Well that's peed me right off! I do use the ski hosting services as on some trips I ski solo. Also when I go with away my mum. I hate skiing on my own.
I wonder what Mark Warner will do about this, as it's a big selling point for booking with them. Now what am I going to do about my March trip?
I suppose they'll just have to put up a sign up sheet for guests who want to ski with other people.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| Peanutski.eu |
The jewelled journalism of www.Pistehors.com has often been noted on these pages.
Is this not an ideal opportunity to prove your superiority (allowing for the fact that Planetski got the scoop) ... or is this topic simply too mundane for your elevated values?
I see that Pistehors had an excellent story 8 days ago about 'too much snow' in the Pyrenees ...
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/1077-snow-too-much-of-a-good-thing/
But that's yesterday's news! The future of on-piste and off-piste 'leading' in France - by unqualified leaders - would seem highly relevant for your esteemed readers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I had a wander over to the SKUC and peered through a crack in the toilet door to find no more than a 'move along now, nothing to see here or affect us' attitude from the High Muckamucks. I suggest the club has a done deal with the ESF behind the backs of all others.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| So it's quite simple - if you previously enjoyed ski hosting and hoped to go again in France, go into the ESF Office in resort, book a weeks' ski lessons for all your party.....and then when the time comes to get out your credit card say "Wait, didn't the ESF collude in stopping TO ski hosting, I've changed my mind". |
So it's very simple. If you don't like the french laws, or the French, then go and ski somewhere else. Try Scotland where they like the English.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Piccadilly, Simples go to A u s t r i a no ban on hosting there!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
So it's very simple. If you don't like the french laws, or the French, then go and ski somewhere else. Try Scotland where they like the English. |
Don't try the English snowdomes in any case where they take a very dim view of anyone giving a few tips to their mates, according to Snowheads.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Try Scotland where they like the English. |
ROTFPMSL . . . 
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Boredsurfing, ski hosting has always taken place under local guidelines, I'm sure Austria has its own 'protectionist' attitudes. I came across this blog a few weeks ago by Adam Ruck, a ski/travel journalist I had contact with a couple of years ago. http://www.france2wheels.com/thoughts-on-french-ski-hosting/ .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| Try Scotland where they like the English. |
ROTFPMSL . . . |
It took me a while but I think it's the only funny thing i've come up with this year.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| Piccadilly, Simples go to A u s t r i a no ban on hosting there! |
As I understand it, it's restricted to two days in St Anton, the only Austrian resort MW go to.
Plus I like France, I can't not go to Val d'Isere 
I suppose if MW stop doing hosting, I really will have to go elsewhere.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Piccadilly, flicking through a couple of TO websites there doesn't seem to be that much guiding going on in Austria.
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Do you think the TO's will be too mean to pay for properly qualified ski hosts?
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You know it makes sense.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Do you think the TO's will be too mean to pay for properly qualified ski hosts? |
Yes, but that doesn't mean a private service could be provided for any TO to contract out singly or jointly.
edit. If the TOs aren't paying ski hosts then there may even be a cost benefit for them to outsource.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
flicking through a couple of TO websites there doesn't seem to be that much guiding going on in Austria.
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like there aren't many catered chalets? Maybe France is actually less difficult to break into than some places.
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Poster: A snowHead
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What will be the position of the Ski Club leaders now?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skilegs, they are unpaid aren't they? Perhaps they will put more of their hosts in resorts?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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emwmarine, probably about £60 a week for guiding, selling lift passes, sorting ski hire and airport transfer duties.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| emwmarine, probably about £60 a week for guiding, selling lift passes, sorting ski hire and airport transfer duties. |
Crikey, if I were the poor TO's being picked on by the locals I really would feel hard done by having to pay a reasonable amount from now on.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| emwmarine, probably about £60 a week for guiding, selling lift passes, sorting ski hire and airport transfer duties. |
.... yes of course but accommodation, insurance, a season pass, travel there and back from the Alps, food etc on top is really where the 'cost' to the tour operator lay..... several thousand for those things on top of the £60 a week but still WAY short of properly paying commercially for the service.
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I had assumed that the case would get dismissed for simply being ludicrous and probably being illegal under EU laws. The clients are at no more risk skiing with a host than they are skiing by themselves which is allowed.
I am clearly naive when it comes to the levels of protectionism that the French courts are willing to uphold.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rambotion wrote: |
I had assumed that the case would get dismissed for simply being ludicrous and probably being illegal under EU laws. The clients are at no more risk skiing with a host than they are skiing by themselves which is allowed.
I am clearly naive when it comes to the levels of protectionism that the French courts are willing to uphold. |
Maybe you haven't read the previous 23 pages? Clearly you'll be making a moral stand and not going back to France either?
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Anybody have any idea of where people may stand if they no longer wanted to take a holiday that was already booked and paid for, as the services available no longer meet the description as at the time of booking? Are the TO's covered as its outside of their control?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rambotion, Ummm [LoG] This is a 'local' court for 'local' people [/LoG] No toads, just frogs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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> I am clearly naive when it comes to the levels of protectionism that the French courts are willing to uphold.
The judge (or judges in a French court) consider the points of law raised by the lawyers. If the defense lawyer didn't raise any EU legislation that might apply the judge cannot consider it. Case law will only be made if the legislation passed by parliament is unclear. There is already a lot of existing jurisprudence which says that if someone receives a salary then all his professional activities are considered as paid. So the argument that the hosts do guiding "for free" is never going to work. The question of whether the SCGB hosts are paid is much less clear.
According to the DL coverage the defense lawyer focussed on the point that Le Ski guides were not teaching. But the law is clear that it covers guiding, teaching and leading so he seems to be pissing in the wind there. We'll have to see what the judgement says if someone posts it here, what points were raised and how the judge interpreted them.
As others have said, they'll have to attack this from the EU angle if that is possible or get the law changed.
@SteveAngus. TOs normally get the lift passes for free from the lift company.
@David Goldsmth: don't you think the coverage on snowheads is adequate? There seems to be plenty of discussion and points raised here. Do you think what I've posted on this thread is of poor quality or lacking intellectual rigour? As far as I'm aware I'm the only poster here who has a French judge to hand to check some of the legal stuff that I post. BTW I thought the Telegraph scooped this story back in October?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 18-02-13 21:38; edited 1 time in total
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| davidof wrote: |
@SteveAngus. TOs normally get the lift passes for free from the lift company.
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Do you mean for the staff? if so that's a big nope. They get them mucho reduced but they are still paid for.
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You know it makes sense.
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| reded78 wrote: |
| Anybody have any idea of where people may stand if they no longer wanted to take a holiday that was already booked and paid for, as the services available no longer meet the description as at the time of booking? Are the TO's covered as its outside of their control? |
I suspect there is already a disclaimer in th T&Cs of most operators. Hosting has always been on dodgy ground and TOs would have been well aware of it. I recall beeing told this in about 2000 by a Crystal rep in La Rosiere. It may also not be possible to offer hosting for other reasons than legal rulings.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
@SteveAngus. TOs normally get the lift passes for free from the lift company.
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Do you mean for the staff? if so that's a big nope. They get them mucho reduced but they are still paid for. |
Which operators? Crystal and Minghams get an allocation of free passes from the Lift Co. Maybe not in every single resort across the globe for an unlimited number of reps.
Obviously they'll have to be bringing guests into resort.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 18-02-13 21:44; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
@SteveAngus. TOs normally get the lift passes for free from the lift company.
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but the rep may have had to pay upfront for it, and be expected to wait until he end of the season to be reimbursed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Crystals T&Cs say that hosting may be restricted by local regulations, so the likelihood of being able to use the lack of hosting as a ground for cancelling without incurring penalty would be small, I would think. But that's only my barrack room lawyer point of view.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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dobby, Inghams website says the same thing as I suspect do most if not all of the others.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yea sorry but it is a widely misheld belief (certainly in France and certainly here in Val d'Isere) that tour ops get their lift passes for free for their staff..... not true. There may be deals off the rrp but the Compagne des Alpes essentially put the brakes on the free passes idea!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I concur, staff passes are definitely not free! (I wish!).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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-- below
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 18-02-13 23:14; edited 2 times in total
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Complaints from the local hoteliers (who didn't get them) put paid to free passes for TOs about ten years ago here.
Re. the hosting, as I said at the start of the thread trying to win the argument via the courts or negotiation with the ESF is futile. The most effective method would be to make the french hospitality industry aware of their losses due to the ESF's actions via a TripAdvisor campaign. If they were persuaded it was costing them appreciable business they would rein-in the ESF in the blink of an eye, even if it meant seeking a change in the law.
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| shep wrote: |
| Re. the hosting, as I said at the start of the thread trying to win the argument via the courts or negotiation with the ESF is futile. The most effective method would be to make the french hospitality industry aware of their losses due to the ESF's actions via a TripAdvisor campaign. If they were persuaded it was costing them appreciable business they would rein-in the ESF in the blink of an eye, even if it meant seeking a change in the law. |
yes, exactly and stop using the ESF for example.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yep, staff passes aren't free. Larger TOs get some half-decent discount though not a great deal; midsize companies not so much. Iin Meribel last year my pass as RM was free, all other 10 staff passes were full price.
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I've read loads of pages where respondents get all hot under the collar, some lambasting the Esf, some defending the French authorities on safety, some even saying the pettiness of the French authorities is correct (god preserve us). Yet hardly anybody has said whether they actually have had a bad experience with ski hosting. This is the key. My experience of hosting, last year in La Rosiere with skiOlympic was entirely positive and made my trip, with my daughter, not just good but memorable. It was like having a charming, helpful mate show us the best choccy spots and best lunch spots while taking in the stand out pistes. The girl that hosted us was nothing but excellent - safe but yet confident enough in her and her companies ability. She didn't push, over extend or coerce her hostees. She also showed impeccable training and never felt the remotest desire to comment on the techniques of my dodgy ski habits. The group were all adults, my daughter aside, and we could all make the decision not to ski if we wished. We weren't coerced by the tour operator, we were there by choice. So I hope I get the opportunity to raise two fingers to the French courts and be hosted again soon. Sacre 'kin bleu.
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FAQ
