 Poster: A snowHead
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Richard_Sideways, Excellent post.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
fatbob, I do get where you're coming and I doubt any system would be perfect. But if there is a pisted area within a resort which has a known avalanche risk above it and it can't be safely controlled, well perhaps it shouldn't be a piste any more.
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...so closing most of the steeper pistes in Val D'isere and Tignes....and creating some excellent rock free off-piste descents by default.
Count me in.
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| CaravanSkier wrote: |
[
Whilst I recognise there must always be the possibility of avalanches on pisted runs I was under the impression that runs with much of a risk are generally closed. I just wondered what the chances of being caught out on well managed runs actually are ? |
Probably not that high a risk, but as we're intending doing more off-piste, rather than hire kit as and when, getting our own, practising with it and having it with us won't be too much of a hardship. Maybe we could be accused by some as being overcautious, but...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Must say that if I was on my usual blue piste and got avalanched I would be a bit disappointed. There has to be a reasonable expectation that open pisted runs are pretty much guaranteed to be avalanche free.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I was in an avalanche caused by my guide who brought down a cornice on me, think you can ski out of the boiling rubble, think again.
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| dobby wrote: |
| Must say that if I was on my usual blue piste and got avalanched I would be a bit disappointed. There has to be a reasonable expectation that open pisted runs are pretty much guaranteed to be avalanche free. |
What about if you're on your normal blue piste that was fine half an hour ok, it's a nice sunny day but those bloody pisteurs now seem to have closed it? I've seen plenty of muppets ski past the closed sign in such circumstances despite the evidence of big wet peels developing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| genepi wrote: |
http://www.ledauphine.com/actualite/montagne
Sadly the young lady died this afternoon. |
Very sad.
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Age 20. Very sad.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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EDIT: Probably not the place/time, anymore.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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 so sad
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Really, really sad news.
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You know it makes sense.
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I guess not looking too clever for the trainer who took them there without gear. Those are big probe lines in Eva's photo so it's hard to believe that a transceiver search wouldn't have been a faster recovery.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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fatbob, Doubtless the French authorities will investigate the circumstances of this tragic event, including the role and actions of the trainer involved.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Very sad.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I know it's maybe not the best thing to make capital out of such a sad event but it does make the legal shennanigans about ski hosting seem ridiculous when things like this happen. It's these sort of areas they should be scrutinising.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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How sad, thoughts are with her family...
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fatbob,
Hi, thanks for the transceiver loan the other week
I have to disagree with what you say in your posting. Had the victims been equipped with transceivers the search would have been a lot more effective and the victim found much more quickly. Had she been found quickly her chances of survival would have been much greater.
Basically the big probe lines are searching blind hoping to find the buried victim.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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welshflyer, I think you might best re-read fatbob post as that is exactly what he said 
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Here is a summary of the developments of this tragedy. It all ended very badly with the death in hospital of the 20-year-old woman trainee ski instructor.
Report from French TV station "3.fr".By Franck Grassaud avec Céline Aubert
Publié le 06/12/2012 | 12:27, updated 06/12/2012 | 12:53 (Local)
After the avalanche at Tignes, Albertville prosecutors opened an investigation. The authorities of Albertville (Savoie) decided to open an investigation to determine the circumstances of the accident and responsibilities after avalanche Tovière.The two victims of avalanche, who, by some miracle, were extracted alive from the burial, belonged to a group training at the UCPA. All 'trainees ' and 'trainers ' were interviewed. Four gendarmes from The PGHM at Bourg-Saint-Maurice are still in the station to manage the inquiry.
UCPA does not understand
At UCPA Tignes, people can still feel stunned by the episode. The director, Marc Queirard repeats he does not understand. He does not understand why these trainees went going off piste while everyone knew the risk. According to him, it was not really planned, "otherwise they would have been equipped with [transceivers]. [That] is the basic rule and they know it."
These young people are being trained for their Brevet de Ski Instructor for a year, they are in Tignes from La Toussaint.
It is moreover the absence of transceivers which poses the problem to solve for the investigators today and less [that of] the presence of skiers off-piste sector because it [offpiste skiing] is what makes the reputation of the station, "The offpiste is what we come to Tignes for" , "says a regular.
This Thursday, December 6 in the morning, Tignes ski lifts closed until 10:30 to trigger several avalanches and stabilize the snowpack.
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==There's a brief update from "3" at 6/12/2012 at 15:47 (French time)
We can see that the victim's first name has been released and that she is still alive:-
Translated from French as follows:-
"In Grenoble, where Chloe, the young victim is hospitalized, they refuse to give news. We simply know that 'life is involved'."
== Only in France...
Trawling through the news videos from French sites, you are forced to watch previews - a juveniles' cartoon, then comes the news of avalanche casualties, then comes another trailer for soft porn featuring bikini-clad lovelies. The latest one about avalanche risk was preceded by a video short by a combo with the unfortunate name "The Dead Can Dance".
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==There has been a tragic development.
Chloe, the 20-year-old trainee ski instructor, who was taken by the Toviere Avalanche in Tignes yesterday morning, died at the University Hospital of Grenoble this afternoon 6-12-2012
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==David (Davidof) of Pistehors.com posted there:""Sadly the young skier, a trainee instructor with the UCPA, died this afternoon [Thursday 6-12-2012].
The prosecutor in Albertville has launched a manslaughter investigation.
Today the avalanche zone was re-covered with fresh snow and completely tracked out by skiers, some without avalanche beacons or other safety gear. The risk off piste, 4 on a scale of 5, was not obviously lower today compared to yesterday.""
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So young, so sad for the family and friends.
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Archived.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 28-05-15 23:34; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| My further comment is that after such a lot of snow, even if you are on-piste, and not planning to go outside the piste-markers you should be properly prepared and equipped with transciever, probe and shovel. |
Seriously? All piste skiers should carry shovels?
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SkiPresto,
I can see you are trying to be extremely responsible but in reality this just will not happen.
I'm not sure it's even necessary.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Archived
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 28-05-15 23:33; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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This thread just reinforces my thoughts that people have differing expectations when setting out into the mountains, and that IMO it should be manadatory that everyone attends a say 2-3 day mountain safety course and should carry the right gear, but I guess this will never happen, too many do-gooders out there who will complain about human rights etc. I'd be happy to carry a card to say I've been on a course, and can't see how tightening up like this couldn't have a positive influence. Its clear the confusion that exists regards what is and isnt appropriate ski safety gear/ practice, and how to use it. Personally I never set out without tranceiver/ probe and shovel even if I'm on piste that day, also I'm constantly on the lookout for what others are doing above me, same goes for my OH and ski mates. I take all the precautions I can but know its down to me, nobody else.
This av is really concerning in 2 respects, (1) what was the guide thinking, and (2) why werent the people equiped properly? Very tragic for the family's, surely they deserved better when they put their trust in such an organisation to look after their young adult kids.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
This av is really concerning in 2 respects, (1) what was the guide thinking, and (2) why werent the people equiped properly? Very tragic for the family's, surely they deserved better when they put their trust in such an organisation to look after their young adult kids. |
I'm not convinced by the young adults point. 20 is old enough to make your own decisions re risk and reward and bear the consequences. There should be no additional burden put upon the trainer/UCPA that they had any more reponsibility than to any other adult they were providing a service to. If it turns out the individuals avalanched took it upon themselves to ski the route without following the trainer or the instruction of the trainer then we're in a different ballgame, as we are if they misnavigated.
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob, Fair comment
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've got to say that I have done quite a few private lessons off piste with a ski instructor and always presumed I was safe... (Bit older and wiser now!)
When I went trekking in a National Park in Argentina a few years ago everyone was sat down in a hut at the entrance of the Park and had a 30 minute briefing about the dangers around and what to do if anything happens. I know this would be a lot more difficult to organise in ski resorts but wouldn't be impossible...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Are there any updates on the casualties from this particular avalanche? The last I read was that they had revived the young girl(?) and she was being transported down to a hospital by helicopter.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Samerberg Sue, she died yesterday afternoon.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's pretty simple to insist on transceivers, isn't it?: On a big powder day, 2m of snow in the carpark, the skipass gates should be only enabled for those wearing a transceiver. It would be pretty easy to simply have a liftie standing at the bottom ranging on peoples' transceivers.
Ski Teachers and instructors should wise-up too. You don't dig yourself out of an avalanche. Your clients do that. (If they hang around long enough to decide to find you, and then get you out in time).
== So best train them well, and make sure they are beeping before you get on the lift.
People who cannot be found by their buddies require a full station call-out. 300 people issued with probes, and marching in line abreast defying the elements and trying to find the selfish, unprepared victim.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
Today the avalanche zone was re-covered with fresh snow and completely tracked out by skiers, some without avalanche beacons or other safety gear. The risk off piste, 4 on a scale of 5, was not obviously lower today compared to yesterday."" |
This beggars belief I'm sorry.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SkiPresto, S'okay all ski instructors are safe because they've passed their Eurotest.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sad sad news.
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I'm not convinced by the young adults point. 20 is old enough to make your own decisions re risk and reward and bear the consequences. There should be no additional burden put upon the trainer/UCPA that they had any more reponsibility than to any other adult they were providing a service to. If it turns out the individuals avalanched took it upon themselves to ski the route without following the trainer or the instruction of the trainer then we're in a different ballgame, as we are if they misnavigated.
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Age 20, and learning to be a ski instructor is old enough and big enough to take responsibility for going off-piste in those conditions for a start, let alone without equipment. You can't place the blame fully on the trainer.
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You simply CANNOT regulate this - it's just not possible. How do you regulate it? You can't. Even Dia's suggestion - unless you forcibly queue hundreds of people for 30 minutes in pens and force feed them a public infomation film every day they turn up to the mountain. It'd cost millions, and probably wouldn't save a single life. It's just not practical. How would you enforce kit inspection and on-demand testing? European countries cant even standardise on how to teach people to ski, let alone standardising this kind of stuff.
We had exactly the same questions raised when a spate of people died through head injuries as to whether helmets should or shouldn't be enforced, just accept it's a matter of personal responsibility; people will have accidents in situations where they should have known better.
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I don't accept that a trainee instructor is even partly responsible for the actions of a group of people under the tutelage of a qualified instructor.
'Trainee'. The clue's in the name. They've probably already had a spiel from the experienced trainer about 'turn where I turn, do exactly what I say'. So when the instructor says 'go this way' it would be a pretty subversive trainee who would reply 'no'.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
They've probably already had a spiel from the experienced trainer about 'turn where I turn, do exactly what I say'. So when the instructor says 'go this way' it would be a pretty subversive trainee who would reply 'no'.
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Maybe. Although the 'just obeying orders' thing isn't a great argument. There is a difference between placing trust in your instructor/guide down an off piste route, and going off piste full stop when not equipped and in bad conditions.
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Richard_Sideways, agree wholeheartedly.
The suggestion that only allowing tranciever wearers onto a mountain following a huge dump is absurd. If the pistes are that unsafe, perhaps no-one should be allowed on 
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FAQ
I've also had fun down a tree well...but i survived...
