rjs, Unfortunatly there is only 1 World cup start for GB as at the moment we don't have any men in the top 100. When either 1 of TJ or Dougie gets into the top 100 then we will get a 2nd start slot.
TJ has trained with the US girls in DH 4 years ago and was beating Lindsey Vonn then when he was 18 and a Junior. They have both obviously moved on a bit.
Lake Louise is a course for the gliders and favours the heavier guys. She is around 75kg which is the same as TJ but much less than most of the rest of the guys.
Don't think a lot of the men would like to be 'Chicked' if she was allowed to race and beat them.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Ok, so, another genuine, non-loaded question, so no fear of feminist flaming....
Plugboy wrote:
She is around 75kg which is the same as TJ
if TJ can race on the Streif, why the "hell... try to imagine Lindsey doing it" and "you want her dead" comments?
I really do just want to understand a bit more about the racing (and so you could say that if this is a publicity stunt, it's already worked on someone like me, who has always participated in skiing for my own pleasure more than watching other people doing it). I guess I just find it a bit confusing as kooky's comments - about injecting the courses and more aggressive equipment making it more difficult than in the past when women were racing it - make sense, but then you have that article saying of the women who used to raced it
Quote:
In view of the course conditions or the equipment used back then, the performance of these ladies cannot be rated highly enough. It would be most appropriate to call them “incredible“.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Dougie has written an interesting article on this subject on his blog.
I like his suggestion of a Charity Race between men and women. Maybe Redbull could sponser the event?
Firstly I apologise for posting these links, I hate them.
miranda, I think we have reached the point where the modern technical material and racecourse building puts our athletes at the very point of no return. The commentator says he was travelling at 140 kmh as he went into the finish.
I know Albrechts crash was a "pilot" error,as was Scott MacCartney the year before, and the jump in the zielhang has been "built down" but I can´t see a woman having what it takes to take on the Streif competitively against the top male racers.
The Streif is just something else, it can be a career ender, perhaps one of the men can sum it up better than me, you need such an enormous physical strength for that hill.
There isn´t a race in the world where women have these kind of jumps at these kind of speeds.
Edited a hundred times cos I am a nitwit with my formatting sorry
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 9-10-12 20:44; edited 2 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
spud, hmmm... I'm not sure he really says much that's new in that article (and as I promised no feminist flaming, I shall not comment on his frequent references to "girls" when talking about the women, whilst the men are always "men" ) I would be surprised if there was an exodus of the top women from their sport if Lindsey did well in the men's race. Still, personally, I think if she wants to race the men, she should race them on one of the men's courses. Otherwise, there's no point.
kooky I'm not going to look at the link - I think the fact that you hate it says enough for me to know I don't want to right now... Your comments about modern equipment taking people to the very limit make sense to me.
I do genuinely get the fact that you need enormous strength to do it, and it seems that this is even more the case now than in the past due to modern kit and course preparation.
I don't think the top women in any sport with an emphasis on strength will ever be able to compete against the top men. That's why I think that top 5 men v top 5 women charity race isn't a great idea - the men will obviously get faster times than the women.
I suppose what I am wondering is if someone like Lindsey, in her current form, still hasn't got what it takes to race down the streif against a competitor like, for example - because it's the only one I have - TJ who is of a similar weight... maybe he's still loads stronger than her though despite their comparable weight?
I do also understand that not enough of her female competitors would be in a position to do it even if she were, making a women's pro race on the streif pointless due to a long list of DNFs.
miranda, TBH I don´t think there are many women racers who would want to take on the Streif.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
miranda, T.J. will be stronger than Lindsey, he will have a lower fat percentage and more muscle.
After all it is free
After all it is free
miranda, Yes...I understand where you are coming from. As for being called 'Girls'....the term 'Women' always sounds so harsh and as if you're being derogatory towards them. Maybe it's just a bloke thing... Especially in this context.
kooky, I had a very similar crash to Scotts. I remember being in the air going backwards thinking 'this is gonna hurt'...I slid for approxiamately 80 m's. It was like a yard sale when i eventually stopped.
We were working on tuck positions and compressions... I relaxed after the enormous compression and forgot about the jump...Doh!!! Carnage...
We were working with one of the Canadian Teams Coaching staff, and he said it was the worst crash he'd seen all season... Luckily just heavy bruising and cracked ribs.
Training got cancelled for the day...apparantly too dangerous...
Still sticks in my memory now, so clearly...it was like in slow motion.
Very...very Fortunate...hense my deepest respect for all downhill racers.
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According to Dougie... Chemmy is going to be talking about this subject on 5 live in the morning at 8.15.
Told you the media would be all over this
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spud wrote:
the term 'Women' always sounds so harsh and as if you're being derogatory
Ok Miranda, step away from the keyboard.
Before I do so, will just say:
rjs wrote:
miranda, T.J. will be stronger than Lindsey, he will have a lower fat percentage and more muscle.
Of course.
What I was wondering was, significantly so? She has said she would like to give it a go at some point. There has been suggestion this would be suicidal madness. I was wondering about that - how far off the lowest ranked men she is in terms of strength, as I'm assuming we're saying the only difference between men and women here and the ability to race on the streif is strength, as there was suggestion earlier in the thread that she could beat the lowest ranked men on other courses.
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miranda, I would expect the difference to be similar to that for male and female competitive weightlifting. At the last Olympics there were 69kg categories for both men and women, the winners lifted 344kg (men) and 261kg (women).
For ski racing, I think you are more interested in the multiple of body weight that you can leg press, from memory the differences are similar to above.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
miranda, Remember I used the word 'Context'
As for strength...she has it. She uses mens ( boy's ) skis and you have to be super strong to carve and bend a full on FIS type ski.
Watch video of her training and you can see her strength.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
spud, wrote
Quote:
Watch video of her training and you can see her strength.
Actually not impressed. She's fast, she has fantastic balance and she's a great skier (the part when she gets in a tuck on the physio ball is amazing). But in that video she's doing squats with a 40kg weight (20kg for the bar and two 5kg plates on each side). Any reasonably fit male can do that (not athlete, just any guy off the street between 17 and 70 years old).
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
sugardaddy, yeah her trainer actually says as she's on her balance board doing those 40kg lifts "she's doing many repetitions" for work on endurance rather than going for strength training.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
spud, Compare her muscle definition with this and squats with this.
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Poster: A snowHead
rjs, although he's obviously one of "the big boys" and not someone to compare Lindsey Vonn to.
I see your point about 69kg men being able to lift 80kg more than women of the same weight, and so this is why people are less fearful for 75kg male athletes racing the Streif than 75kg female athletes.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
miranda wrote:
if TJ can race on the Streif, why the "hell... try to imagine Lindsey doing it" and "you want her dead" comments?
It's not about the weight. If weight would be main thing, I would probably be in top 10 on WC races today, if I would of course start It's about power, and also technique and control. No matter what anyone says, Lindsey is nowhere near top guys (or even those way lower down the list) in any of these categories. One thing is skiing women courses, the other is skiing men courses.
I wrote this somewhere else, so it will be just copy/paste.
Schild was skiing as forerunner now for 2 years or so in Schladming men SL race. First year she was light years behind 30th place and qualification time for second run (some 4 or 5 sec behind 30th place, and almost 8sec behind first place... that is 8sec in 50-55sec run). Last winter, she would most likely qualify for second run with her time, but conditions were really in her favor. Track was so soft, that at number 15, guys were skiing knee deep into holes around gates, while Marlies had perfect track. So with her having number anywhere else then 1, she wouldn't be in top 30 either. And I would say in last few years Marlies dominates women SL more then Lindsey dominates women DH.
Next to that... I'm on some 40+ WC races every year, and I'm always on course, going down on course, so I see preparation on women side and on men side. These things are nowhere near identical. For example, last season women's Maribor race (SL and GS) was rescheduled to Kranjska Gora due lack of snow. Kranjska Gora is traditionally men's stop with both GS and SL, so I know how that hill normally looks (Soelden, where they race together is kindergarden compared to preparation of Kranjska gora men course). When I came to course of women GS, and next day SL races, it was actually fun skiing down the course. It was gripy, polished, almost no bumps, so basically everything you wanted to have for skiing (on other side, when there are men races on same hill, I always take extra care my skis are prepared right way, since I have no wish slipping down that ice with 20kg of expensive photo equipment in my backpack). Yet girls, and I mean every single one, not just those placed around 30, 40 or 50 place, had huge problems getting down. Looking that race was more painful then anything else. And you have to consider what I wrote, that preparation was nowhere near so brutal as it's on men side normally.
Another thing... you don't really notice this on tv, but in real life you do. While being on course of men SL race, you can hear that sound of guys hitting gates, and it's brutal. Like machine gun going full power. On women course, it's pretty much little bang once in a while. Of course I'm not saying women skiing is bad or anything like this, but thing is, it can't compare. Course settings can't compare, course preparation can't compare, power of skiing can't compare, and anything else can't compare either. That's why I wrote, Lindsey, and no matter how good she is on women tour, doesn't stand a chance not even on easy glide course of LL, and for Streif, she would be happy if she would come down the course alive. If nothing else... watch just last traverse on Streif, where guys are bombing down over those bumps at 120+km/h, and then watch every single women course on tour and try to find only 10 meters of similar conditions... on any course.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
primoz wrote:
It's about power, and also technique and control. No matter what anyone says, Lindsey is nowhere near top guys (or even those way lower down the list) in any of these categories.
Gosh. Ok. Says it all.
The best women are nowhere near as good as the worst men in any aspect of ski racing. This whole thing does sound pointless then.
Interesting...that's one persons opinion. And very valid it is too.
Thankyou primoz, for the detailed post...it's appreciated.
But Other Racers seem to think she would do ok...some not...so there is a devided opinion. If the Racers don't know, then surely a mixed race of somekind would be fun to watch?
No doubting what has been said...but it seems her fellow female competitors are up for her doing it...it's just finding a way to do it.
Take away...everything that has been said about Strength, Tecnique, speed etc... Would it not be fun to watch? Good for media exposure etc?
Interesting to see Head Skis this morning were quoting Aksels blog of getting over the 100kilos in weight. Something Speed Skiers aspire too.
Either way...it's creating debate amongst the skiing community and media...which is all good imho.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Tell her to up her testoterone shots by 5%, get re-tested and she can get in by right. Simple.
spud, this is absolutely only my opinion and nothing more. I totally agree with it. I don't have any real numbers to operate with and to prove it right or wrong, so it's solely based on this what I see, and my conclusions based on this what I see, or sometimes try myself... not what someone would measure, so this should also be taken like that... not like some sort of truth, and definitely not something proven with any measured data. I still think I'm not that far off, but to be honest, I really have nothing against she going for it. Even if she get's seeded into top 7 group, even if it's only LL etc.
As far as media goes... I'm not so sure it's all that much of hype. Sure it was news for one evening and that's it. Definitely it's still better then nothing, but in big part of world (at least there where skiing is sort of high ranked sport) it was one day news and that's it. Ski community is different, and it will be rambling about for weeks, but considering most of us are just looking up on sky waiting for snow to finally start falling, it's normal we do this when there's nothing better to do And it's good in my opinion. It's still better to discuss this, then some other stupid things
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
spud, I love the fact that you are relentlessly positive in this thread.
I'm not sure how much fun it would be to watch. primoz has said she's just never going to get near any of the competition on any course. Do you think those other racers are being honest when they say she will do ok, or is primoz just saying it as it is (which is no bad thing, if that's the way it is)?
In other racing sports like, say, swimming or track cycling, female athletes do not have inferior technique to male athletes, but they obviously have less physical power so will have slower times. Why is there such a gender gap in ski racing when it comes to technique? Is technique in this sport constrained by physical strength (and thus women will never have as good a technique as men because they will never have as much power)?
After all it is free
After all it is free
I'm not saying that women have inferior technique compared to men. Thing is, courses and preparation is different, and technique (at least in small details, which on the end are quite important) adapts to conditions on course. If your courses are always pretty much flat, you ski differently then when there are full of bumps.
I agree I should probably say that different, but sometime, well most of time, it shows, my English is far from perfect (it's quite easy to blame everything on this ). So all I wanted to say was, that for men courses women have inferior technique, but that doesn't mean they have inferior technique in general. For this what they need, they have optimal one, but thing is, we are not talking about racing women courses now. Not to mention this what you also wrote, miranda. With more power, you can ski different line, which also means you ski with different technique.
In cycling (at least on track) or in swimming, course and conditions are same for everyone, men and women, so technique is kinda same, even though even there, I would assume technique is adapted to less/more power certain cyclist/swimmer has.
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primoz, [quote]
Quote:
Another thing... you don't really notice this on tv, but in real life you do. While being on course of men SL race, you can hear that sound of guys hitting gates, and it's brutal. Like machine gun going full power. On women course, it's pretty much little bang once in a while.
Great posts Primoz, and that sound ^^^^..........one of the best in the world
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kooky wrote:
Great posts Primoz
Yes, very interesting, thanks.
Do you think the women's sport would benefit from a gradual modification in some courses to allow technique to adapt and evolve?
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I'm definitely not right one for this, but personally I don't think so. I guess it's clear to everyone, that men have in general more power then women, and I don't mean anything bad with this. For skiing something so brutal as Streif is, you need A LOT of power... quite often more then some of men racers can provide. Personally, I don't see reason, why to push women races to courses like this. I agree that Streif is extreme, but still.
If I just take last years Kranjska Gora as sample. Most of women on tour were actually happy to be there and to compete there, but it looked pretty bad for me. I just don't see point in presenting skiing this way. In my mind, it's not really great thing to see, when best skiers on world struggle to come down (same goes also for men... just remember Val d'Isere GS some 2 or 3 years ago, when Ligety looked like kid, who can hardly turn skis... it just gives completely wrong picture of this). So we should all accept some limitations, and try to get along with it. I still think women skiing looks great, if nothing else I much much rather see women in skinsuits then men in skinsuits And when you look at them going down, it's impressive. When you would get them on men course, with preparation of courses men normally have, they would struggle there, and that sort of skiing wouldn't look too impressive... at least for me.
Of course there will always be period, when there will be someone standing out. It was before, and it will be in future. But there's no need to change whole tour because of that one person. And it goes same way for men and for women.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
primoz wrote:
When you would get them on men course, with preparation of courses men normally have, they would struggle there, and that sort of skiing wouldn't look too impressive... at least for me.
Of course there will always be period, when there will be someone standing out. It was before, and it will be in future. But there's no need to change whole tour because of that one person. And it goes same way for men and for women.
Yes, I can see that. It seems like the women's sport is more limited, though, if technique is constrained both by power and the courses training is designed for, while the courses are constrained by the power and the technique of the competitors they are designed for...
It sounds like there is more variation in the men's courses and so men's technique is different not just because of their physical strength but also because they must adapt to more. I don't want to watch people seriously hurting themselves and so certainly don't want to see people being obliged to run courses that their physical strength simply could not cope with, but perhaps very gradual changes on some courses to allow for adaptation of technique would be interesting.
I suppose, really, only the female athletes themselves can answer that question.
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miranda, read fatbob's link. It's about a male tennis player ranked 200 that easily beat. the Wiliams sisters. He says that on the men's game, shots that are winners for the women, are returned, so the way they play is different. It happens in many sports and some make adjustments for the women (shorter games in tennis, lower net for volleyball ) and others do not (basketball and football ).
For me, the former is the right way as they make watching women sports fun and the latter makes me think that my tv is set on slow motion
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I haven't looked at fatbob's link but I already knew that about tennis. I don't know about ski racing and what roles, and to what degree, physical strength, equipment and technique determine what is or is not feasible or desirable in terms of courses. That's why I was asking and I've found people like primoz and kooky very helpful. Would be fab if the people actually doing the sports, like chemmy, popped in with their views, but don't think that'll happen.
I personally enjoyed watching many women's events during the olympics that involved the same distances and the same courses. Funnily enough, my tv didn't seem to be in slow motion when watching the women's athletics or Ye Shiwen win the 400 IM etc. and actually I found the women's football slower but more entertaining than the men's (and distinctly lacking in the hysterical rolling round on the floor you see when watching the professional men's matches).
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
You can't really notice difference between someone running 11sec on 100m and someone running 9.6sec. Or hell... you don't notice difference between someone running marathon 2h 3min and other one running half hour slower. But when you put them together, difference would be huge. That's why I'm saying, you just don't put them together, and both will still look great.
That's also reason, why I see no point in women doing men courses and men races. All you would get from this would be women skiing looking sh*tty. Keep it the way it is now, and both, women and men skiing look impressive. And they do, even if women ski on a bit easier courses, on a bit different preparation and settings, and with a bit different equipment. There's no point in comparing these two. It's point that it looks great, and this way it does.
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primoz, I agree with all you say about there not being a point in mixing the two sexes in most sports. They are separate events in their own right and therefore if Vonn does want to compete with men, she needs to do it on of the men's courses.
There is no need to change the conditions or rules of a sport for each sex unless necessary. Thanks to the info here, I am understanding that ski racing seems to be one where it is necessary but I believe there are a number of sports where it simply isn't.
I would still be interested to know if the female ski athletes themselves would like to see a gradual variation in some of the women's courses or whether they are happy to just keep doing the same thing. Maybe I will track Chemmy down on twitter or facebook or something and ask.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Blimey it's getting competitive out there...
First Vonn and now other sportsman wanting to try out to see who's fittest...
See the latest Svindal Blog and video...how crazy fit is that?
Let her do it, don't let her race following weekend. Raise profile of skiing in general and she can prove a point or maybe not !
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Nickski, as has been mentioned here a few times, if she WAS allowed to race, she would have to forfeit the 2 womens races , that is a potential 400 WC points, something she has stipulated she will not do.
There is no need to change the conditions or rules of a sport for each sex unless necessary
agreed
Quote:
I personally enjoyed watching many women's events during the olympics that involved the same distances and the same courses. Funnily enough, my tv didn't seem to be in slow motion when watching the women's athletics or Ye Shiwen win the 400 IM etc
me too.
Quote:
I found the women's football slower but more entertaining than the men's
Do you follow football regulary? IMV, women's football could be much better to watch if they'd use a smaller pitch
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
sugardaddy wrote:
Do you follow football regulary?
Unfortunately, yes.
(I really don't want to turn this into a football thread)
After all it is free
After all it is free
kooky wrote:
spud, Alpine racers....some of the fittest athletes in the world
By far not As long as there will be guys with 15kg too much and women with 35kg too much (even someone like Lindsey or Tina Maze are everything but slim ), you can hardly talk about "fittest athletes in the world" Not to mention them being dead tired and not able to recover to give decent interview without looking like they just finished 7 hour running, for next 3 hours after they were skiing for 50sec
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sugardaddy wrote:
IMV, women's football could be much better to watch if they'd use a smaller pitch
So would be men too. Or at least if they would play with 5 balls or something
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) I would be surprised if there was an exodus of the top women from their sport if Lindsey did well in the men's race. Still, personally, I think if she wants to race the men, she should race them on one of the men's courses. Otherwise, there's no point.
Luckily just heavy bruising and cracked ribs.
And it's good in my opinion. It's still better to discuss this, then some other stupid things 
