 Poster: A snowHead
|
| RibenaRockstar wrote: |
| al.p, interesting that you've never tipped school teachers. Here it's common at the end of every year of primary school and at Christmas for the teacher to get some kind of edible gift or gift voucher. Doesn't happen at secondary school because we all have so many teachers, but often people club together and organise something for each teacher at the end of A Level. |
Does anybody happen to know when this practice began? It certainly didn't happen in my schooldays.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Pedantica, didn't happen in my school days either (70s)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| snowball wrote: |
| oldmancoyote wrote: |
tartegnin, what you are describing as "tipping" ($x/hour) sounds to me like paying, not tipping. But maybe it's my sheltered life again.  |
$10 per hour tip for lessons! I assume that's one to one? I expect to PAY less than that per hour for a top mountain guide in a group situation. |
$10 per hour tip,IMO that is ludicrous. The client has already paid good money for the lesson, why pay more !!
If the reason for the tip is to supplement the wages paid then that is the problem, but wait a minute why do you continue working as a ski instructor if the pay is so poor, why did you not train to work in a profession that pays a living wage, i.e. like the vast majority of your clients did.
The answer to this is quite simple, you chose the lifestyle choice of being a ski instructor, good on you, to many that may sound like the dream job. You knew the pay structure when you entered into this profession. But now you EXPECT your clients to supplement your wages to bring your salary into line with someone who does receive a living wage but does not have the lifestyle that YOU chose.
Ever heard the phrase "you can't have your cake and eat it too"
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I think too many people in this thread are playing the Mr Pink breakfast role in Reservoir Dogs. It's quite simple - in US & Canada ski instructor is a service industry job where the model is pile the staff on at near minimum wage and tipping is part of the system.
Kel, $10 per hour tip isn't outrageous on a 1-2 hour private lesson in the US. Instructors only get piad for teaching hours so will be lucky if they get more than 5 hours a day. It's your freedom not to tip but remember the vast majority of customers won't be stingy Brits but wealthy Texicans/East coasters who have no problem with handing out bills for everything so guess who instructors will be incentivised to give the best experience to.
If you don't want to tip take it up with resort management not pick on the ski instructors, even after tips most do it for love not money.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Pedantica wrote: |
| RibenaRockstar wrote: |
| al.p, interesting that you've never tipped school teachers. Here it's common at the end of every year of primary school and at Christmas for the teacher to get some kind of edible gift or gift voucher. Doesn't happen at secondary school because we all have so many teachers, but often people club together and organise something for each teacher at the end of A Level. |
Does anybody happen to know when this practice began? It certainly didn't happen in my schooldays. |
...or perhaps the country in which you grew up...
BTW - I would not call what RibenaRockstar is describing "tipping".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
oldmancoyote,
| Quote: |
...or perhaps the country in which you grew up...
|
The same as RibenaRockstar's 'location', otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question in relation to that post.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pedantica, I too am based in the UK, I left school in the 90's we never "tipped" teachers either. I have noticed a lot of "best teacher" mugs etc appearing in card shops toward the end of term these days tho.
I think a lot of it is peer pressure and keeping up with the jones'. Only a few years ago mothers day/valentines day meant a card for mum/boyfriend/girlfriend and a day off cooking/cleaning etc and possibly a bunch of flowers, now it seems to mean at least a meal out, possibly a weekend away or an elaborate gift. We seem to be "supersizing" every occasion we can, just look at halloween and how that has gathered momentum over the years.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pedantica, I was in primary school from 1998-2005 and I finished Upper Sixth this summer. Feel free to judge my youngness 
Certainly this summer, I had 7 teachers (two for each subject plus a language assistant for Spanish) and I found Sainsbury's own brand version of Guylian seashells for about £1.70 a box, so altogether it cost me about the same as I get paid for an hour's tutoring - to me that's not a big deal as a way of saying thank you to some amazing teachers.
In primary school I do question it more - and I think it happens more at the private schools in my town - but the gift was usually quite little, maybe £3 twice a year for something thoughtful and yummy to say thank you for doing such an unforgiving job.
oldmancoyote, So is it only tipping when it's money? I personally think edible tips are a lot nicer if it's in terms of showing appreciation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
lilywhite, dead right
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RibenaRockstar,
| Quote: |
to me that's not a big deal as a way of saying thank you to some amazing teachers.
|
That's true. Have you actually tried those chocolates?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
RibenaRockstar, If I ever have occasion to meet you (are you coming to the PSB?), I'll bring you some nice chocolate - I live in Switzerland about 100 metres from a chocolate factory which makes some of the best chocolate in the world. But that doesn't make it a "tip". It's a gift. A thank you. As you call it, a sign of appreciation. Not an "extra" for the teacher to go and have a drink (or a meal) or pay the rent. It may be a subtle distinction, but to my mind makes all the difference. Perhaps I'm too influenced by my other languages, where (most evidently in French or German: pourboire/Trinkgeld) a tip is something that implies social condescension and feeling of superiority on the part of the giver, much more than gratitude.
Pedantica, point taken. What I was trying to say is that I (my family) have often given gifts to teachers when I was in primary/middle school (I'm 45, so that's a while ago). But it was not in the UK. My children celebrate Halloween, which I never did, but in the US it has been going as a celebration for far longer than I've been alive - customs and "traditions" travel. So where/when does one start to count?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 20-10-12 15:55; edited 3 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
lilywhite, +1. Sorry - I missed your message while reading the replies of RibenaRockstar and Pedantica.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
oldmancoyote,
| Quote: |
a tip is something that implies social condescension and feeling of superiority on the part of the giver, much more than gratitude.
|
I think that may be true (even if not actually intended) and may be one reason why people have difficulty deciding whether or not to tip the proprietor of a business.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
I don't really see why people are getting agitated about this, tipping is something that happens, if you don't want to tip, fine, but surely you can understand why an instructor would choose to teach a client who tips over one who doesn't. Personally I've been tipped over a thousand dollars a few times, and very much appreciate it. I don't need tips, I already earn a wage that I think is reasonable, but if people choose to show their appreciation of my effort with money I'm definitely not going to feel embarrassed about it or anything. I'm also happy when people just tell me they've had a great time, but probably happier with the cash!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
jimmer, I don't think anyone is getting agitated. But your attitude towards tipping is not the whole world's (and neither is mine).
And it's not a useless or pointless discussion, at least for me: I have learned something new about myself in participating.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I always tip the take away driver.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
As a snowboard instructor (and chalet business owner) I can safely say that I never have or will feel the least amout of embarassment about receiving a tip! No colleague I've ever discussed it with would either.
That's not to say it's expected, it's just very much appreciated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| fatbob wrote: |
I think too many people in this thread are playing the Mr Pink breakfast role in Reservoir Dogs. It's quite simple - in US & Canada ski instructor is a service industry job where the model is pile the staff on at near minimum wage and tipping is part of the system.
Kel, $10 per hour tip isn't outrageous on a 1-2 hour private lesson in the US. Instructors only get piad for teaching hours so will be lucky if they get more than 5 hours a day. It's your freedom not to tip but remember the vast majority of customers won't be stingy Brits but wealthy Texicans/East coasters who have no problem with handing out bills for everything so guess who instructors will be incentivised to give the best experience to.
If you don't want to tip take it up with resort management not pick on the ski instructors, even after tips most do it for love not money. |
I have never skied in the U.S. or Canada but have been to the states many times. Whilst I do not entirely agree with the expectations of the customer to add 15-20% onto the bill for tips I do go along with it, when in Rome and all that.
Now this is the bit I cannot understand, why is ski instruction classed as a service industry job ?. I understand that when I go into a diner my steak and beer comes to $50 and that is what I have purchased, the other $10 I add to the bill is for the service with a smile. But if I had a ski lesson the only thing I am receiving is a lesson from a professional instructor, the very fact that they are professional should surely mean that they are paid a wage that reflects this and this of course is reflected in what the client has paid to the ski school.
Am I missing something or is it just the way in the states, if so IMO it is wrong. I would much sooner the ski school charged me a rate which enabled them to pay the instructor as a professional and for this to be very clear at the time of booking. Of course if it was an all day lesson I would still stand the cost of coffees and lunch etc, that's just common courtesy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Kel, I agree with your feelings, but have to point out that there is little that is more "service" than instruction/teaching.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Pedantica, yes, they're delicious
oldmancoyote, I'm not coming to the PSB, no - but I see the distinction between tips and gifts.
Kel, I agree with you that ski instruction shouldn't be counted as a service industry
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RibenaRockstar, what about doctors, nurses, accountants, lawyers, ...? These are all service professions. There is nothing wrong, demeaning or insulting with providing services rather than tangible goods.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
oldmancoyote, exactly - it's a profession. I meant the 'service industry' as what Kel phrased it as.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| RibenaRockstar wrote: |
| al.p, interesting that you've never tipped school teachers. Here it's common at the end of every year of primary school and at Christmas for the teacher to get some kind of edible gift or gift voucher. Doesn't happen at secondary school because we all have so many teachers, but often people club together and organise something for each teacher at the end of A Level. |
(Thank you) gifts yes. Tips no. I think there is a small but definite difference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kel, Ski instruction is a service industry job because it is part of a service industry - Leisure and Tourism.
Please don't go on about "lifestyle choices" - I am very aware of how little I get paid and that even working full-time it is hard to get by without relying on tips. Right now, I have little choice - unemployment here is about the highest in the US and even if I did get a job in the profession I am trained in I would still find it hard to make enough money due to how that profession is perceived in this country. Life doesn't always present you with ideal choices and you have to make the best of what you are offered.
Most people already seem to think that the ski schools charge more than enough for private lessons - $599 for a full day lesson last season. By mid-season I may have been getting close to a 3rd of that in wages. Don't ask me where the rest of the money goes, I don't know.
Tipping in the US is a cultural tradition, and it is normal to tip any one who is a service professional. If you don't like it, don't do it, but if you plan on returning to the same person be aware that it will alter that person's perception of you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
skinanny, and I suspect you are taxed as if you have received those tips even if you haven't?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Hells Bells, if we don't declare them we get taxed on an amount they think we should have got, so it's usually better to declare them.......even though we are only 'required' to declare anything over $100. Not that I get $100 very often anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| RibenaRockstar wrote: |
| oldmancoyote, exactly - it's a profession. I meant the 'service industry' as what Kel phrased it as. |
"Profession" is independent of "service". Professions have requirements for skills and knowledge (and members discipline) that are monitored by the profession itself though they may be legal requirements (e.g. a degree in medicine), but there are plenty of professions that deliver tangible goods: architects, engineers, chemists, pharmacists - and even surgeons. There could be some argument as to whether ski instructors are a profession (e.g. "members discipline" ) but it's beside the point in terms of tips.
Service simply denotes if the "product" that is delivered to the customer is intangible, perishable (cannot be stored), requires the participation of the customer at the moment of delivery and is tailored to suit each customer (Heskett, Sasser, Hart, 1990). I'd say skiing lessons have a big tick against all four...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| skinanny wrote: |
Kel, Ski instruction is a service industry job because it is part of a service industry - Leisure and Tourism.
Please don't go on about "lifestyle choices" - I am very aware of how little I get paid and that even working full-time it is hard to get by without relying on tips. Right now, I have little choice - unemployment here is about the highest in the US and even if I did get a job in the profession I am trained in I would still find it hard to make enough money due to how that profession is perceived in this country. Life doesn't always present you with ideal choices and you have to make the best of what you are offered.
Most people already seem to think that the ski schools charge more than enough for private lessons - $599 for a full day lesson last season. By mid-season I may have been getting close to a 3rd of that in wages. Don't ask me where the rest of the money goes, I don't know.
Tipping in the US is a cultural tradition, and it is normal to tip any one who is a service professional. If you don't like it, don't do it, but if you plan on returning to the same person be aware that it will alter that person's perception of you. |
So the people who sell lift tickets and the engineers who keep the lifts running, they work in the same leisure and tourism industry as you, do they get tipped, I doubt it.
You actually answered your own rant, it is the ski school that is creaming it off by charging $599 for a days tuition and only giving a third of that to the person who has actually provided that tuition. Whilst we're on that subject $200 a day plus tax free tips, doesn't sound too bad to me for doing a job that lets face it is a lifestyle choice. If it wasn't you wouldn't be good enough to do it in the first place.
Maybe the salary you receive isn't enough to get by where you have to live, I don't know. One thing I do know though, if I paid $599 for a days tuition and paid for lunch, coffees etc on top of that I would not feel compelled to give you another $60 at the end of the day.
Maybe I am wrong, some will think I am others will not. Just my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Kel, I wasn't ranting - I don't know where you have got that idea from.
Yes, $200 a day plus tax free tips sounds pretty good, but there's a couple of holes in your thinking. Tips aren't tax free, for one. Two, I only get to $200/day by mid-season at the earliest. Three, even being a full-time instructor it is very unlikely that I will work 6.5 hours a day for 5 days a week though out the entire season - I generally average less than 25 hours a week, even if I am at work all day since I do not get paid unless I actually teach a lesson.
Both ticket sellers and lift maintenance are on a regular 40 hour week - they get paid for the time they are at work, not for the time when they are actually working. This means they will generally take home more money than I do, despite the fact that ticket sellers get paid less per hour.
I think you have a romanticized view of ski instruction - how is it a lifestyle choice that gets to be reviled? Or even why is it a life style choice rather than just a job? I go to work and do my job, just like I would do if I was a nurse, or an accountant, or a pilot. It may be a dream job to some, but in the end it it just a job and one that is often done in less than ideal conditions. I am not complaining about it, I have just been trying to give you some idea of what it is really like.
And you are not compelled to give me another $60 at the end of the day, but neither am I compelled to accept you as a client the following day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| Instructors only get piad for teaching hours so will be lucky if they get more than 5 hours a day. |
That's the thing it really goes on my nerves. Not so much here, because not many people mention it, but it's very much the same comment also in other areas.
Ski instructors (or what really ticks me off, wedding photographers), can work only very limited number of hours/days a year, so it's normal they expect insane prices and huge tips? Great, but then again, I would really love to survive through the year, shooting only alpine skiing World cup. This means 30 or 40 races in year, and I would live all year around from this. Beautiful. But reality is, it just doesn't work this way, so I do everything else what it takes to survive... even if I don't like it that much. And it doesn't say anywhere, that these guys need to survive with working 3 or 4 hours a day, 50 days a year. If it works, fine, but please don't expect me to pay huge "tip", just because he thinks he can live with working few days a year. Get another job, or do something else those other 300 days a year.
If everyone else work 40 hours a week, 300+ days a year, well, maybe Mr. Ski instructor can work a bit more then those few hours if salary is not big enough to survive year through with that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
A question to those more well-versed in the US system: if you attend one of the ski clinics run by the owner (take straightline adventures for example, but there are many others), is it still customary to tip, and if so how much?
On a general note...$599 before any expected tips is a seriously big chunk of money for a day's private instruction. And the fact that different ski schools are not allowed on the same mountain is anti-competitive. (That would take care of both the headline price and the % going to instructors...)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
primoz, Most instructors work all year round either going to the Southern Hemisphere and working for their winter or by having other jobs in the summer.
I am returning to Canada this season to work. My normal working week will be 5 days where I have to be on the mountain all day, we are paid a 4 hour per day minimum. So 20 hours per week if it's quiet, this is just about enough money to pay rent and eat with no additional spending. There will be lots of weeks where I work more but also lots of weeks where I go skiing all day and don't do much work but still get paid! My view, as has been stated above, is that this is a great lifestyle and if I manage to break even for the season then it has been a good year, definitely not lucrative!
On the subject of tips, I definitely do not expect them but on the occasion that someone feels you have provided an outstanding experience and wish to show their gratitude, then I would certainly not be unhappy to receive a tip! I understand what I am going to earn for the season in advance and budget accordingly but those extra few dollars every now and again certainly help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| horizon wrote: |
On a general note...$599 before any expected tips is a seriously big chunk of money for a day's private instruction. And the fact that different ski schools are not allowed on the same mountain is anti-competitive. (That would take care of both the headline price and the % going to instructors...) |
Exactly! We have the same anti-competitive system in Australia. One business to rule them all!(Even worse because at one point 3 of our 5 major resorts were owned by the same group)
They operate on PUBLIC land(mostly National parks) and we allow them to have a MONOPOLY on this.
The worst bit in the USA is that you really cannot buy a hour or two of private lesson at many of these places - 1/2 day or day bookings only.
I've seen/overheard instructors that will ski the client into the ground in a whole day private so they can get more time off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Pedantica, cathy, or mine, but I can vouch for the fact that it happens now!! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
glp9 (or anyone else) don't get me wrong about this. I have nothing against tips. If someone want to tip ski instructor, waiter, garbage collector... feel free to do it. It's not my problem what someone does with his own money. But I really don't go for idea of "obligatory" tips. I just think it's not my problem if someone agrees to work for minimum or even sub minimum wage, and then I need to pay the rest of his/her salary with tipping him/her.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
primoz, I agree that tips should not be a substitute for a fair wage. In my view they are an additional bonus for a service provided that is above and beyond the norm expected. However that is perceived is down to the client!
A fair wage is great but we probably all wished we earned a little more!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
horizon, if the clinic is in the US I would tip......if not.... I might not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
Exactly! We have the same anti-competitive system in Australia. One business to rule them all!(Even worse because at one point 3 of our 5 major resorts were owned by the same group)
|
Hi little tiger, In Australia I heard that there is a snowsport instructors union, and legal minimum wages for snowsports instructors have been established (in some states anyway). Is there any truth in this?
I think that this really needs to happen in the US and europe to stop exploitation of instructors by the resorts. That way there would less reliance on tipping, although probably still as confusing for the tipper.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
but did you complain to the school at the end of your lesson?
|
oddly enough the individual that lumped me with the little twerp had shut up shop and done a runner by the time I crawled back to demand a refund. Come to think of it the 'instructor' had also legged it sharpish at that point as well .....
| Quote: |
I can't start my own business as a ski school, the resorts are either private companies or on contract with the National/State Parks to run the ski area. It is illegal to teach on most mountains unless you work for the company that runs them. And it's not monopolistic - you have the choice of working for the ski area on the next mountain.....
|
If you read my post again I think you might see that I knew that. And it's a not a monopoly in this case, it's a cartel which is just as theoretically illegal in the US. In respect of the prices they charge, I think RICO applies as well.
| Quote: |
.........would you work all day for nothing, and hope to get paid at the end if your boss liked your performance?
|
Believe it or not, that is exactly what I did for the majority of my professional life. Until I wised up and started consulting where I set the rate up front and make sure I get paid in all cases. No tips involved
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
No offence taken anyway 