 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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roga, He's a Ski Club of Leafy Wimbledon hitman - they only pitch up when the order is taking a beating. Scotland isn't Val D'Isere and that's why I'd chose Scotland most of the time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And many of us would prefer to avoid Val Despair... but PJski didn't actually mention it did he? Strawman there I think...
With one or brief 2 stops I could probably get to Aviemore after 9 hours of driving. If the M25 was not a car park... In that 9 hours I could be in Engelberg, or any number of train accessed Swiss resorts.
Here we have a thread where now two people have given their negative personal experiences of skiing in Scotland and got slagged off by some of the evangelists here, and there does seem to be some selective quoting of Mr Cove. This looks defensive and tetchy and is not a good advert.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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roga,
I have just re-read my posts and see that the only opinion I have expressed is that you need to be local because of the weather conditions. believe I am entitled to an opinion based on my own experiences, as are you.
My facts,
The road and the mountain were closed, backed up by Dam great notice board in the middle of the A9 and a hotel full of truck drivers.
I did not put skis on, on 5 weekends (notice in hotel called it inclement weather).
I had 5 other weekends disrupted by bad weather or condition of the snow cover.
I had 2 memorably good days.
The bars were open despite the weather.
I now live 2 1/2 hours away from Soldeu and 7 hours driving from Chamonix.
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stoat of the dead, have to disagree, as I've said more than once we all have our opinions and vive la différence - not sure how saying that a few times or suggesting we are all presenting opinions rather than facts is "slagging anyone off" or being "tetchy" though but feel free to put me right on that so I can learn the error of my evangelistic ways 
Slightly puzzled how those of us being positive about Scotland can be accused of "slagging off" when we're the ones having words like "tetchy", "cr@p", "generally poor snow", "evangelist" and the very accusation of "slagging off" blithely chucked at us 
For the record 1, there's no doubt a very bad day in Scotland can be ... well, very bad indeed, there's a lot of agreement (and supporting photos) that a good day can be as good as ... well many other places. I'd agree that booking months in advance is dicey and I'd always advise people to be wary, but if you can grab your chance you can have a great time and planned trips can work too to be frank.
What is fact is that that a number of Snowheads (I'd guestimate probably 40/50) over the last 4/5 seasons have been on 'unofficial' bashes/trips there (see the thread on the March trip), many of which I've organised or attended. Of these one person last year definitely "hated it" and I can recall only one other person who said it had been a good experience and had to be done once but they probably wouldn't do it again (I paraphrase). Of the others many have been back and of the ones I've kept in touch with: one spent a couple of weeks last season touring round the ski areas in a caravan with partner, another was back last season with 4 mates who loved it and want to go back themselves (one has just bought a pair of skis off me) and one is now regularly off touring in the Scottish backcountry after the first intro to Scottish skiing, as well as anywhere north of Manchester, back in (IIRC) 2008. There's also a bunch from last season who are planning to repeat last seasons trip and again get the sleeper up from London or travel from all points north. Sooooo to suggest as fact Scottish skiing is only for locals is nonsense, opinion fine but given my personal experience and the evidence I present above please don't expect me to sit on my hands when people make assertions that simply don't stack up with my experience.
Now you might not like the facts or opinions I've presented above but you can rest assured that if you argue or disagree on any point I make I won't accuse you of being an "evangelist", being "tetchy" or of "slagging [me] off", after all discussing opinions is what these forums are all about is it not? 
For the record 2, I actually really like Espace Killy, have stayed in Val d'Isere a few times but prefer Tignes Les Brevieres (both for price and a more 'genuine' atmosphere) - I have a bunch of mates who work over there too ...
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| Dypcdiver wrote: |
roga,
I have just re-read my posts and see that the only opinion I have expressed is that you need to be local because of the weather conditions. believe I am entitled to an opinion based on my own experiences, as are you. |
Yes, how saying I disagree with your opinion is in any way threatening your right to those opinions beats me
| Quote: |
My facts,
The road and the mountain were closed, backed up by Dam great notice board in the middle of the A9 and a hotel full of truck drivers.
I did not put skis on, on 5 weekends (notice in hotel called it inclement weather).
I had 5 other weekends disrupted by bad weather or condition of the snow cover.
I had 2 memorably good days.
The bars were open despite the weather. |
At no point have I denied your experience and I'm sure these are facts, however drawing the conclusion that you don't bother unless you happen to be local is not fact, it's an opinion but I have no problem with you holding that opinion although you seem in some way 'troubled' by my countering your opinion ... I'm genuinely puzzled by that!
The last couple of Xmas/New Year periods I've been up the road from Bristol to Aviemore, cold and lots of snow as you'll be aware, managed to get up fine. Had various friends heading to the Alps around about the same time or in January and both years at least one or two parties suffered terrible delays (weather, volcanoes or whatever it was), at least one party had their holiday effectively ruined by the experience, the others were a bit more stoic. Neither they nor myself have drawn the conclusion that the Alps are just for locals as a result and I'm sure many would agree that it might be a bit of an overreaction if we did.
This year they've got new ploughs and cold weather equipment at the airports so it should be better, since the 70s/80s/90s clearance of the A9 has improved immeasurably - perhaps some parallels?
Have to say though that these days the problems are often with the access road at Cairngorm which has been blocked for a week at a time by snow in recent seasons - the solution is to head west though, Nevis has low level gondola access so problem solved.
Out of interest how long ago was the experience you relate of road closures etc?
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| I now live 2 1/2 hours away from Soldeu and 7 hours driving from Chamonix. |
Personally in your position given a choice of Scotland or Chamonix, I'd head Chamonix way 
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roga, Ok - you don't see it mate - I suspect lots of others do. This thread appears to have started with selective quoting of what one person had written. And the two people who have posted negative experiences have not been believed.
We know Scotland has had a few brilliant seasons recently. Long may this continue and good luck. I'd love to be closer. But you are hitting the same small nail with a damn great hammer and it does not look good.
I do think that the SCGB were twits for missing Scotland from that thing btw.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoat of the dead - My main objection is that a journalist who has skied once in Scotland thinks its ok to submit a Scottish skiing is crap / no snow article as a press release to other web sites. Call it selective quoting if you want. I provided a link to the original article and several others agreed it was wrong. (natives.co.uk even issued a formal apology).
FWIW - If I lived in London I would ski in the alps too (its equidistant). That however does not mean that Scottish skiing cant be worthy for the millions of people living a little closer. Normally I like James Coves enthusiastic articles. But on this occasion he was off the mark. Indeed it could be claimed James Cove has made the error of selectivity quoting the original report to fit his negative story ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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^ I think I agree in general there, the fact Cove's piece led to a very poor and highly negative Natives article is evidence to support that view I'd say. To their credit Natives subsequently withdrew the article and published a far more accurate piece in it's place - all power to them for that
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Been banging my head against a brick wall, it is such a good feeling when you stop, that I might do it again. 
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PJSki, you persist with this in various guises but the same basic message that is simply not relevant to the majority of people who use the Scottish Ski Areas, yet the crap spouted on the internet from distant people who feel they are obliged to crap on Scottish snowsports for whatever reason can damage the local market which is completely different to the holiday market.
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| Ideally, I want to ski deep powder and have to book my trips in advance. |
Again, you seem either unable to grasp or determined to ignore the huge difference between ski holidays and the daytrip or short semi-local weekend break (1 or at most 2 nights) market. The majority of skiers around the world are skiing on local hills, where skiing is something they do throughout the season and yes sometimes take the rough with the smooth, not something for a months ahead planned holiday alone. It can certainly rain plenty in Whistler or Tahoe, that's a maritime climate, I assume that means the skiing's shite there too? 
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You know it makes sense.
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^ ^ lol, I think we can agree on that 
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 13-10-11 12:10; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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stoat of the dead, it was not selective quoting of Mr Cove on my part, I was commenting on an article on Natives which it transpired was very selectively edited from James Cove's full piece and subsequently pulled.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Winterhighland, so you relied on a secondary source, then commented in a public forum (that this thread is now no 1 Google hit for "James Cove Scotland") and whilst Natives have corrected what they said, you have left this little gem in this thread.
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| rob@rar, it's ignorant personal prejudice dressed up as fact in a news article. |
I have no opinions at all on Scottish skiing - other than wishing it were closer... in fact if someone could remove everything between Tunbridge Wells and Leeds, I'd live with that...
But the impression I get from this thread is that one is not allowed to criticise it - even when - as 2 people have posted here - comments are clearly labelled as being based on personal experience.
Another topic to add to the "must not discuss list"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles, nope... sorry and all that
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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stoat of the dead, did I start the thread? No. Did natives explain it was a secondary source? No. Do I have any control over SEO on snowheads? No.
| Quote: |
| must not discuss list |
Discuss is one thing, but when people who are distant, have little or no experience of what their dishing and are frankly largely irrelevant to the market on which Scottish Snowsports depends feel the need to crap all over it, I and others will continue to call them out. Seen people here give their expert opinion on how awful they know Scottish Snowsports to be only for it to come out that they have either never skied in Scotland or have on a day or two, or even a part of a day!
You can go to any ski resort on Earth and have a crap day snow wise or weather wise. That goes with the territory, snowsports after all are mountain sports. Snowsports in a maritime climate will obviously have a different feel, vibe and weather influence to a continental climate - it's not about comparisons of better or worse, its about being something different. Some of the dishing of Scottish Snowsports is like saying an apple is a poor orange!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I notice James Cove couldnt resist another small dig in his latest blog...
Coincidence that he published this at the start of the week ?
At the risk of selective quoting.
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| BASI.... From its formation in Scotland in the early 1960s through the golden time of Scottish skiing in the 1970s to its demise as the snow stopped falling and the alpine package holiday took off. |
http://www.planetski.eu/blog/102
I would have hoped the BBCs snow correspondent would have known the true definition of demise
demise
1. death or decease.
2.termination of existence or operation
I genuinely wish James Cove all the best. However news agencies such as Planet Snow circulating stories to other main stream media agencies about the demise of Scottish skiing cause very real damage to an industry that needs to get the message out that you can still ski in Scotland - and more importantly that it can be worthwhile.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 13-10-11 15:32; edited 2 times in total
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| I genuinely wish James Cove all the best. However news agencies such as Planet Snow etc... |
doesn't he own Planet Ski?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Winterhighland, you didn't exactly make that clear did you? read the sequence of posts again - and see if that is what someone reading the thread would think. I rather suspect they would read that as a comment on Mr Cove.
And again a few people have talked about their experiences skiing in Scotland on more than a few days, and their experiences are being ridiculed.
Not cool. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Crikey. 'The Winking Owl' in James' blog. That brings back memories of a trip. It was heaving then.
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achilles, doesn't heave so much now. Always put it on the pub crawl for old times sake though. Doo Below (which is being tastefully enlarged) is where you'll find the local colour these days.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
when people who are distant, have little or no experience of what their dishing and are frankly largely irrelevant to the market on which Scottish Snowsports depends feel the need to crap all over it, I and others will continue to call them out. Seen people here give their expert opinion on how awful they know Scottish Snowsports to be only for it to come out that they have either never skied in Scotland or have on a day or two, or even a part of a day!
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I agree, and though my only experience of Scottish skiing was poor (first day, brilliant sunshine, brilliant snow, queues from Hell, second day, blowing a hooley, lifts all closed by 11 am, I climbed up for one last run and smashed my knee on the way down, in part as a result of the rubbish hire equipment) that was a long time ago and I'm sure lots of great days are to be had. But it's not as consistent, or as easy to plan in advance, or as well-supported by wider infrastructure as skiing in the Alps - that does seem reasonably uncontroversial. But it's not just about facilities, or weather, it's also about "soul" and that's something I understand from my much wider and more positive (despite the weather.....) experience of Scottish sailing.
However, I do think it's true that the Scottish skiing enthusiasts get very defensive about any criticism. It's our Celtic inheritance, and I understand it.
There's more ignorant generalisation and snide comments on SHs about "French ski resorts" than there is about Scotland - we'd never get anything done if we tried to respond to them all.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
PJSki, you persist with this in various guises but the same basic message that is simply not relevant to the majority of people who use the Scottish Ski Areas, yet the crap spouted on the internet from distant people who feel they are obliged to crap on Scottish snowsports for whatever reason can damage the local market which is completely different to the holiday market.
| Quote: |
| Ideally, I want to ski deep powder and have to book my trips in advance. |
Again, you seem either unable to grasp or determined to ignore the huge difference between ski holidays and the daytrip or short semi-local weekend break (1 or at most 2 nights) market. The majority of skiers around the world are skiing on local hills, where skiing is something they do throughout the season and yes sometimes take the rough with the smooth, not something for a months ahead planned holiday alone. It can certainly rain plenty in Whistler or Tahoe, that's a maritime climate, I assume that means the skiing's shite there too? |
What guises? Send me a link and I'll tell you if it was me or not. It's almost certainly not, btw.
Also, I believe I said I will ski Scotland again the next time I'm there and the snow is worth it. Pretty much the definition of a 'daytrip'. I won't be making any advanced booking though, for obvious reasons.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| roga wrote: |
For the record 1, there's no doubt a very bad day in Scotland can be ... well, very bad indeed, there's a lot of agreement (and supporting photos) that a good day can be as good as ... well many other places. I'd agree that booking months in advance is dicey and I'd always advise people to be wary, but if you can grab your chance you can have a great time and planned trips can work too to be frank. |
Which is exactly what I said.
BTW, I won't be writing an essay on my Scottish skiing experiences for you enjoyment.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PJSki, I meant guises as in variations of what you say, not under different usernames. This thread is becoming a very fine example of how meaning and context can get lost so easily online...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, the queues of old were indeed hellish (not all the time and not everywhere though).
The queues and crowds of the late 80's and early 90's are looked at from some quarters as some sort of sign a halcyon age of Scottish Skiing, which IMO is to totally misread the situation entirely. That should be borne in mind when considering the HIE commissioned report which indirectly started this thread off.
The numbers skiing then were wholly unsustainable and in 89 and 90 the average daily number on CairnGorm Mountain passed 3600.... The situation was becoming farcical and made worse by a run of truly horrendous seasons in 89, 90 and 92. This period did long term damage to Scottish Snowsports that appears to have lasted a generation, giving birth to the no snow and huge queues perception.
A perception that was enormously strengthened by media and conservation bodies use of the emotive power of snow with increasingly 'sexed up' reporting on global warming. To a degree where many folk (even relatively local) now believe the normal situation on the ground in the Scottish Mountains is actually worse than some of the worst case scenarios predicted for the 2080s. In the past 2 seasons esp, but since 2008 to some degree I've spoken to countless people on lifts and tows in Scotland for whom this was either their first season or in some cases first day riding in Scotland since the late 80s, that's just underlines the damage done by this perception and the media (new and old) stories that perpetuate the no snow myth.
There has never been the so called nightmare scenario of the no-snow winter for any of the Scottish Snowsports Areas, yet the number of people who believe this scenario is a regular occurrence is scary.
A very unfortunate perception from the end of the 80s has grown arms and legs into a complete myth which being perpetuated and re-enforced regularly, by comments just like "the golden time of Scottish skiing in the 1970s to its demise as the snow stopped falling". A myth which has put real businesses to the wall. This myth needs to be scotched once and for all, people with no connection to the local snowsports and winter mountaineering based industry / community struggle to comprehend just how damaging it is, damaging to real businesses, real peoples livelihoods.
Even the HIE report describes busting the no snow myth as one of the biggest and most critical challenges facing Scottish Snowsports.
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| A perception that was enormously strengthened by media and conservation bodies use of the emotive power of snow with increasingly 'sexed up' reporting on global warming. To a degree where many folk (even relatively local) now believe the normal situation on the ground in the Scottish Mountains is actually worse than some of the worst case scenarios predicted for the 2080s. |
Yep, not helped by 'information' such as this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| PJSki, I meant guises as in variations of what you say, not under different usernames. This thread is becoming a very fine example of how meaning and context can get lost so easily online... |
Easily or deliberately?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Why do I keep thinking about the Glencoe Massacre?
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| Quote: |
Of course your advice excludes a very large number of people.
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This really is why I contribute to this thread. If people continue writing stories (in October) saying that it is pointless to try to ski in Scotland because there is never any snow, there won't be any lifts left and the excluded people will be everyone.
I am not a forward planner most of the time and yet I find that I can still consistently encounter good conditions at all the ski areas in Scotland because I don't have to take any time off work. It's not that far/tough a drive from here so it is a reasonable weekend break for a large number (I'd say those living closer than a line around roughly Chester/Stoke/Mansfield/Grimsby but YMMV). None of these people can get to the Alps without breaking into a week (when most of us go to work) which requires forward planning and uses up holiday. I think that is about 25 million people. All the skiers in this area should be the market, but eg Dypcdiver think the market is all those within 1hr drive of a ski area. That's less than a million people. It's not enough and is misguided.
There should be enough skiers among the 25 million to give plenty of custom to 5 small ski areas but way too many are put off by an outdated perception that when they go, the weather will inevitably be terrible and there won't be any snow. Some days that will be true, but nowadays I can tell when that is the case, and will do something else that weekend. So could many others. When the weather is going to be great, going skiing is a realistic thing to enjoy for a huge number of people in the UK but most of them don't know it and articles like this written from a London viewpoint are misleading them. This is fine for me at the moment as I rarely have to queue at the lifts and get in a lot of great skiing. I'm used to the old, slow lifts and am not bothered about having comfy chairs. But those empty slopes can't stay this empty or the ski centres will go bust and large areas of rural Scotland will have even fewer winter employment opportunities than they do currently. Ski Scotland have managed to persuade BBC Scotland that they should briefly mention the conditions in the main evening weather bulletin but more people are urgently needed on the slopes when conditions are good and they will only come if they realise what they are missing.
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