 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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hang11, Yep, Cross Axled. The driver is obviously French. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just loove the video of the BMW 1 series driving in snow - driver leaves in gear.
It all seems so quiet, not much going on, and then the voiceover, 'what an idiot,' he says in a state of mild awe.
Made my morning.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Something like this?
It is unfortunately not a 4x4, but I rarely came across any occasions in the Alps when a 4x4 would have significantly increased safety or mobility. There were perhaps one or two moments when I had to just pull over, park and sleep out a storm. Perhaps stop and put on some snow chains.
A 4x4 is only really essential if you cannot afford to wait, or you need to leave before the snow has been cleared by snow ploughs. For example, if you were running a business which required you to get there regardless of weather and conditions.
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Libertine, I've used a Landcruiser for the last 5 years in the alps - probably much bigger than you need, and heavy on fuel, but works well, very reliable, never need to use chains. It's a 1997, bought in the UK for about 3k£, and imported into France. Another plus (for me) is that it's a 8-seater
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Verbo wrote: |
I'm a real fan of 4x4s and like the higher driving position, enhance protection (in a crash the laws of physics work in your favour,
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Not always, sometimes the weight makes the crash worse for you and higher vehicles are more prone to tipping over during a crash. Don't take it for granted that you are safer in a big 4x4.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
Not always, sometimes the weight makes the crash worse for you and higher vehicles are more prone to tipping over during a crash. Don't take it for granted that you are safer in a big 4x4. |
Indeed seen lots of 4x4s upside down on on their side in ditches while lower 2wds tend to go in right way up. From my empirical study: Porsche Cayenne > Lexus something> BMW X5 > Volvo XC90 > Any fwd> Any subaru (almost never in ditches must be something about lesbian drivers  )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Porsche Cayenne, lexus somethings, BMW x5, volvo xc90 (not to mention Range Rover Sports) are footballers' cars, not 4x4s to my mind. I'd still prefer to be in a bigger car in a crash, I'm happy to consider any weaknesses and drive accordingly and on balance I think that's safer. Plus with much better visibility I'm in a much better position to avoid someone else's crash in the first placeAnyway, a rather gloomy turn for the topic to take. Is it snowing yet?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Verbo wrote: |
| on balance I think that's safer. Plus with much better visibility I'm in a much better position to avoid someone else's crash in the first placeAnyway |
You might see a crash/problem earlier but that doesn't mean you will be able to stop in time. Braking distances are significantly longer for heavy SUV's, esp in the winter.
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You missed "consider any weaknesses and drive accordingly" off the quote!
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You know it makes sense.
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| DB wrote: |
| Braking distances are significantly longer for heavy SUV's, esp in the winter. |
The car in front is your crumple zone.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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For those reckoning a 4x4 is safer in a crash, you won't have seen the data from crash tests on some of the very well known and top selling 4x4 manufacturers then. They have improved very recently, but then you won't be buying a new car of that size for £5K-£7K.
I'd be looking at a Subaru Legacy or Forester. Both have 4x4, are pretty common in the alps, and a £5-£7K model will still be previous generation that are easy to fix, easy to get parts, and nice and simple vehicles that just work in snow and ice. Plus it will be good spec model, good service history, and relatively new for that money. Avoid the turbo models, they will drink fuel and you won't be able to put the power down on the road in those conditions unless you are a rally driver with studded tyres.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Monium, Yeah... but the turbo is such great fun in the summer 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Verbo, I quite agree.
Porsche Cayenne, lexus somethings, BMW x5, volvo xc90 - if on low profile tyres are rubbish in deeper snow.
So much so that on the Cairngorm access road a couple of seasons ago instead of saying 4x4 access they changed it to 4x4 access " with proper tyres " - as those on low profiles were all over the place.
John
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| alltnaha wrote: |
Verbo, I quite agree.
Porsche Cayenne, lexus somethings, BMW x5, volvo xc90 - if on low profile tyres are rubbish in deeper snow.
So much so that on the Cairngorm access road a couple of seasons ago instead of saying 4x4 access they changed it to Land Rovers only "
John |
That's what they meant to say. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Subaru. Never let us down, and low enough to get the skis on and off the roof. It's all in the tyres though in any event.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Have an old C Class Estate out in the Alps - 150,000 miles on the clock and a spare set of rims from ebay with snow tyres on. It's worth less than £1,000 but works a treat - only ever used snow chain once and that day anything vaguely normal would have got stuck. Roof box on the top for skis in the winter and a bike rack in the summer. It comes home for a bit of TLC and MOT from the local garage once a year. So few locals have 4x4s.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Verbo wrote: |
| You missed "consider any weaknesses and drive accordingly" off the quote! |
A higher centre of gravity and more weight = longer stopping distances and poorer handing esp in winter. As long as you have two wheel drive and top quality winter tyres you will have enough traction to get you most places. The majority have two wheel drive with winter tyres here in Austria but 4WD doesn't enable you to spring over the car infront so gives little advantage most of the time.
Yes careful driving helps but it doesn't always keep you out of trouble e.g. descending a steep resort access road full of hairpins bends and drop offs - the heavy vehicles would generally be the first to start sliding hit something and then flip over.
If you are behind a people carrier, the advantage of seeing want's going on ahead is lost. If someone ahead makes a mistake and the traffic all brakes hard then someone in a heavy SUV with a greater braking distance is much more likely to hit the car in front. This means at best a lot of hassle during your ski holiday (AA, Hire car etc). At worst you take out the kids sat on the back seat of the car in front or you hit the car in front at an angle carrying on to the side and roll down the valley. Extra traction at the expense of braking performance / handling doesn't make sense to me. I drive here in the alps every winter and have seen enough SUV's in ditches / on their roofs etc (for some SUV drivers it's the only time they go offroad). As someone esle said - winter tyres make the difference and that is especially if it is a proper offroad vehicle (e.g. Landrover) as offroad tyres are a nightmare in winter conditions.
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| DB wrote: |
| As someone esle said - winter tyres make the difference and that is especially if it is a proper offroad vehicle (e.g. Landrover) as offroad tyres are a nightmare in winter conditions. |
I take my mud tyres off in the Winter and put my Winter tyres on. Mud tyres are lethal in the cold/wet/snow/ice, large tread blocks with no sipes, wrong rubber and little contact area. They only really work OK in deep fresh snow.
Land Rover with Winter Tyres - pretty much unbeatable.
I agree about decent tyres on a FWD car will get most places, it's when things get steep & deep that a 4x4 comes into its own. Deep snow will stop a car long before it'll stop a Landy.
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Have an very underpowered 2 litre forester with winter tyres. Its a bit slow fully loaded with the roof box on the way to the alps, but really fantastic in slippy conditions, but a lot of that is down to the tyres and its low power. Downside is its rather lightly built and drinks fuel for how fast it doesn't go. (and avon ice ranger tyres go out of balance all the time, bl**dy things!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| carroz wrote: |
| (and avon ice ranger tyres go out of balance all the time, bl**dy things!) |
Try Tyre Balancing Beads, rebalances the tyres with every revolution.
I managed a huge 22.2 mpg last weekend on a trip to Bruges in my Subaru. 5 people with luggage, didn't drop below 90. Managed 25.1 mpg with just 2 of us in the car and legal speeds. 7 mpg if I hammer it. 
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One thing to remember about a 4wd is that you can get a winch on the front, which is dead handy for getting out of any ditches that you slide into 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
I take my mud tyres off in the Winter and put my Winter tyres on. Mud tyres are lethal in the cold/wet/snow/ice, large tread blocks with no sipes, wrong rubber and little contact area. They only really work OK in deep fresh snow.
Land Rover with Winter Tyres - pretty much unbeatable.
I agree about decent tyres on a FWD car will get most places, it's when things get steep & deep that a 4x4 comes into its own. Deep snow will stop a car long before it'll stop a Landy. |
Yes an English guide in St Anton runs a Landy with winter tyres - he's pulled other SUV's out of trouble. The problem is that many UK drivers don't realize you need to put winter tyres on 4x4's to get the best performance. They think their big SUV is setup to tackle anything. They don't realize that a 2WD car with winter tyres beats a 4x4 with summer tyres in winter hands down. A heavy SUV with summer tyres descending a steep road is an accident waiting to happen. Problem is, when that accident occurs it's the kids on the backseat of the car in front that get it in the back of the neck while the ignorant SUV drivers are better protected in their heavy tin boxes. If a foreign SUV is behind me on such a steep road I let it pass and give myself plenty of stoping space.
I've thought about going 4X4 too (not big SUV though) but if you are trying to get somewhere in deep snow you are generally stuffed until the snowplough comes along anyway. At best I'd get a few miles further up the road while driving in second gear at 12.5637 mph. Landys can't spring over cars either so when the road is cleared my speed would be generally dictated by other vehicles anyway (heavy cars with crap winter tyres). Unless you drive where the roads are not cleared by others, high clearance 4x4's are generally overkill or provides very little advantage but bring along many disadvantages.
Not knocking anyone, I didn't realize most of the above until I lived in the Alps either but maybe this info saves an SUV bumper, headlamp, AA recovery vehicle callout after an SUV offpiste rollover or more importantly a ilttle skier sat in the back of the car in front.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB, I think we're pretty much agreed that the right tyre for the conditions is essential.
Downhill is always more dangerous, especially in something big and heavy, basic physics. Going up hill normally the worst that happens is you fail to proceed.
In the UK, when the roads have been blocked by stuck cars, I've normally managed to clear the roads of stuck cars. or if they're Prius, X5 or Cayenne, just driven around them laughing.
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Thanks for all your advice folks.
at the moment, I think that I will stick with the motor that I have and get some quality tyres.
Awaiting for a quote back from the link above for all year EU use, hopefully that will be OK.
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You know it makes sense.
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gilleski, I had one of those as a hire car in Bourg - bloody fantastic!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Nadenoodlee, Compared to what, a BMW, perhaps?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Couldn't wait to get out of it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I drove a Kia Sportage yesterday, nice looking car, pretty comfortable, but interior materials are a bit hard and low rent. The model I tried was a 2.0L petrol auto and quite frankly it was gutless, noisy and harsh when pushed, which you needed to do because of the lack of power. Didn't have a diesel to try, they said that was better.
Can't believe they make a 1.6 petrol too, must be quicker to get out and walk.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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VW Transporter. Out here in Austria most local taxis are Transporters / Multivans (with pax seats of course), many locals business like ski schools use them as well and I've got one too, front drive only my one. Fitted with winters it's fine for getting around. Can get it with VW 4Motion which I guess would help in some circumstances, like a hill start on slippery surface.
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FAQ
