 Poster: A snowHead
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abj,
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A few people have mentioned projecting the hips forward/across to help initiate the new turn
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One of the best things you can work on 
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letting the skis/knees come up and under the body a bit more, rather than the body coming up and over
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Just depends on how you look at it really. We're not saying don't do that, just make sure you extend again then you can flex at the end of the turn, and repeat! If you stay low the whole time, there's only some much your legs can come up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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heidiky,
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If you stay low the whole time, there's only some much your legs can come up
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Depends on the terrain, doesn't it? On bumps you can sometimes stay fairly low, because you flex and extend with the change of terrain each time. In other words - compression turns - which are fun to practise on groomed snow, the sort of drill ssh was suggesting, at least I think he was.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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compression turns - which are fun to practise on groomed snow, the sort of drill ssh was suggesting
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Yeah, defo depends on terrain - like you say compressions are good for bumps/cruddy stuff etc but not really an effective way to ski all the time (unless you get into the whole slalom racer movements etc). I guess what I meant was if you stay flexed the whole time then you're goosed! It's like suspension, if it's maxed out and you hit a bump then you're gunna feel it. Hard! 
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Keep in mind, too, that "extend" doesn't necessarily mean that your body moves up in relation to the snow. It may mean that the skis get out farther away from your body. The key is that you recharge your ability to absorb, as heidiky says.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Boonting.
Don't stand on your inside ski though  British racers eh!?!?
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
Little.tiger,
I agree again, good instruction is when the instructor has a good understanding of what he is trying to convey, in my view he must not only understand the positions he is trying to put his pupil in but needs to understand what that particular position should "feel" like because he has felt it for himself and had it verified he is doing it correctly, I have also had a lot of lightbulb moments with race coaches, in the past I have been put in-and put myself in many positions, but its not until I have actually felt the difference that this particular position makes and had it verified I am feeling and doing it correctly, would I ever confidently be able to pass it on to others. |
Moving a person into a position provides poor proprioceptive feedback... moving them THROUGH the movement they need to make to get to that position is a far better option... the trick is to work out how to do 2) rather than 1)... (I've needed to learn a lot of different ways to learn movements because I mostly don't have the proprioception and so struggle with even very simple tasks like standing on 1 leg. Lots of folks that teach movement contributed to my learning by telling us how to teach and learn movement - that tip was from a dance teacher come human movement PhD IIRC)...
A great example of good instruction was the instructor who determined I used base of foot pressure as a feedback tool - then skied around a couple of turns, walked back uphill to me, and proceeded to walk me through those same turns pressing on my hand to tell me how much cuff pressure he felt at each point in the turns. That was one of the things that let me learn to flex an ankle.
That is an example of actual 'guest centred' teaching not mouthing platitudes about it and doing the opposite by running through some rote learned quick tips and analogies with little understanding. (Damn I detest the 'press on accelerator pedal' one - it produces plantar flexion not the dorsiflexion they are looking for... I heard that from a PSIA level 2 instructor for a heap of lessons - she could barely ski like an intermediate, blamed everyone else for her inability to pass an APSI 2 exam, and had so little understanding of ski technique it was embarrassing the following season when I got a race coach and he started asking me questions about what I had been doing and why.)
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she could barely ski like an intermediate, blamed everyone else for her inability to pass an APSI 2 exam, and had so little understanding of ski technique it was embarrassing
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Don't you just love these kind of instructors...!?!?!? I call it 'verbal diarrhea ... i learnt this in a bulls**t course'
It's amazing how many instructors don't bother looking at their clients and assessing what they need to work on. Just regurgitating pap from the manual seems to be a common teaching style!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ssh, here's an even better montage for you point about extending laterally, rather than up.
To do it, the old outside (downhill) leg is flexed as the skier goes through the transition, and the old inside (uphill) leg is not extended until after the skier has crossed to the opposite side of his skis. In doing this, the Center of Mass takes a more straight line path across the skis, as opposed to the pendulum path it takes when the old inside (uphill) leg is extended.
Readers, don't be led into thinking extending is bad. It's just a different way to transition, with different pros and cons.
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heidiky, Yep - I got my own back though - she still cannot ski for peanuts and I've long since surpassed her.... She no longer spoke to me though after I got better instructors (a mutual friend suggested I try someone else)...
One of my other pet hate phrases is 'finish the turn' Ummm - surely when I stop that turn and start the next I'm finished with that one... What they really mean is turn more across the falline before you transition into the next turn but they won't say that because it is considered tecnical words... Instead they confuse the student with the finish the turn stuff...
Rather than take time to explain the terms falline, transition etc and the concept of http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Degree_of_Turn.html - they trot out that phrase that I'm sure they all learn from each other but that the average person will not get...
I far prefer the approach of learn to move each part of me as independently as possible, the outcomes of those movements, the impact of each on the other, and how to combine them to achieve an outcome I want.
BTW - agree re the extension in bumps - a trainer I know is a pretty decent bumps skier and his comment is that most folks struggle in bumps not because they fail to flex but because they fail to extend sufficiently to allow them to flex enough next bump... hence the ski 5 bumps and crash and burn... they run out of range of motion and then hit the bump that does the damage...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger, exactly! No amount of being put in these positions helped me feel the particular thing I needed to, I personally "so far" have learnt more through being given a visual picture and appreciate everyones different, but once the feeling is learnt, I am able to reproduce that feeling rather than the position, your method of learning is world's apart from anything we do but very interesting to read.
I guess as for learning or giving advice in these threads, it can only generalize. But understanding other views and ideas is where it's at!
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FastMan, nice pic of lateral extension. In my head that's exactly what I look like (yeah, right!!  )
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You know it makes sense.
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| FastMan wrote: |
ssh, here's an even better montage for you point about extending laterally, rather than up.
To do it, the old outside (downhill) leg is flexed as the skier goes through the transition, and the old inside (uphill) leg is not extended until after the skier has crossed to the opposite side of his skis. In doing this, the Center of Mass takes a more straight line path across the skis, as opposed to the pendulum path it takes when the old inside (uphill) leg is extended.
Readers, don't be led into thinking extending is bad. It's just a different way to transition, with different pros and cons. |
I agree... nice shot!
Interesting, too, that he's not angulating much at all in that last frame. Evidence that angulation is also something we use when we want but not necessarily all the time. Nicely done.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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gatecrasher, yep that was why I liked the dual cert with adaptive quals plus race coaching or instructor trainer. The variety of experience meant they had the ability to think outside the box and also the technical understanding. I also had a bit of success with Austrian Staatliche - again a very broad technical base plus having learnt to race well enough to get into the course was handy. By that point though I had a few other instructors who could explain some of my idiosyncrasies and give any new guys/gals some hints on how it worked. Also all of the guys I used had taught in a couple of different systems, and many were highly qualified in a couple. My main instructor was CSCF all bar last level, CSIA ?, PSIA trainer cert, APSI 3 as well as having adaptive cert, and xc cert. He was also on the Australian junior squad as a kid. Another was also ex Aus junior, Staatliche(but an aussie) and taught in Oz, Europe, Canada as well as adaptive quals.
In general - more ways to get to same end point = good!
I did find the tip about 'posing' versus 'moving' students very useful though... Pose helps me learn the pose, move helps me learn how to get there, using it in skiing helps me learn how to use it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| little tiger wrote: |
... they won't say that because it is considered tecnical words... Instead they confuse the student with the finish the turn stuff...
Rather than take time to explain the terms falline, transition etc and the concept of http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Degree_of_Turn.html - they trot out that phrase that I'm sure they all learn from each other but that the average person will not get.. |
Some skiers really don't get on well with 'technical' terms, not matter how well or how often they are explained. Use whatever language is suitable for getting the job done.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| little tiger wrote: |
... they won't say that because it is considered tecnical words... Instead they confuse the student with the finish the turn stuff...
Rather than take time to explain the terms falline, transition etc and the concept of http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Degree_of_Turn.html - they trot out that phrase that I'm sure they all learn from each other but that the average person will not get.. |
Some skiers really don't get on well with 'technical' terms, not matter how well or how often they are explained. Use whatever language is suitable for getting the job done. |
That is true - but for ease of communication it is preferable that they learn the correct words. If they learn 'inside ski' for 'outside ski' they are going to get very confused when they inevitably work with another instructor. Using pet words and phrases is nice but makes using another instructor awkward at best.
falline is hardly a difficult word to learn - and at some point a person needs to understand this concept. Calling it 'pizza line' or 'chocolate milk' does not aid communication and learning. Avoiding any word of more than one syllable in favour of phrases such as 'lets go ski' does the student a disfavour. Unless the student really struggles with the terminology it is not really helping them to speak at only 5th grade level. IMO it leads to more confusion than it solves in many cases. If the student is interested in the sport they will inevitably come across the word falline. Misconceptions then can occur as they are trying to understand without the benefit of the teacher.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abj wrote: |
| FastMan, nice pic of lateral extension. In my head that's exactly what I look like (yeah, right!! ) |
Thanks, abj!
Keep at it, you can get there. Reality is born of a vision.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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little tiger, kind of like learning "counter balance" for "angulation"?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 15-02-11 0:21; edited 1 time in total
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One question about the pic:
As my last instructor noted, and indeed one of the earlier posters, I have a nasty habit of lifting my inside ski. However, it looks like the skier in the "Retraction" shot is lifting his inside ski ('frame' 1 and 'frame' 3).
I realise that we're comparing two ends of the skill spectrum(!) - but is it desirable to lift the ski in certain types of turn? (I ask as it's something that I've been trying to stop myself doing for a while now).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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abj,
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FastMan, nice pic of lateral extension. In my head that's exactly what I look like (yeah, right!! )
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Obviously the responses to your OP has gone far beyond what you will be most likely be wanting to apply on your next trip, but even in this photo the fundamentals
are still there (flex-plant-extend), it might not be so apparent and more drawn out through the course of the turn (due to the extra speed he is carrying) but they are there.
While on a trip away with a group of friends (mostly instructors) and at the time having the least mileage under my belt I was basically put through the mill, we were mostly skiing off piste on far steeper cruddy, ice bouldery (not sure that’s actually a word) type terrain than I was use to. Well anyway I found myself “hill hugging” struggling to commit to the fall line (more so on one turn, but that was another issue) I found myself locked in a traverse looking for places to turn and running out of hill. Luckily for me help was at hand one of the most experienced guys pointed what I ”wasn’t doing”, whether through fear or uncertainty of trusting my skis to turn on this scary “at that time “ terrain, I wasn’t flexing at the end of my turn. Once I had been taken through a few turns with the idea of flexing and extending off the (uphill, inside) leg, life “for me anyway” became sooo much easier!
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FastMan, little tiger, kind of like learning "counter balance" for "angulation""
Now now , he's not here to defend himself. Although I'm sure he'd have a laugh at the Pizza line.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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abj, there's more than one way to lift your inside ski.
1 where a skier is developing more outside ski dominance javlins etc. But this skier will have his weight well balanced over his outside ski. The racer most likely has all his weight on his outside ski,but in balance. He's not intentionally trying to lift it.
And 2 a skier who feels he has to lift his inside ski through an (aware or unaware) fear that his tails are going to catch in the snow, this skier will most likely have his weight too far back over his tails.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Or "inside" and "outside"
See you even confus ethose of us that know which one is which
(i think it has something to do with the palstic thing at the top of my skis which point in different directions ) 
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You know it makes sense.
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Blimey i'm on a roll - i have solved this one now : we should learn from golf
In golf we presume everyone is righthanded, then we just talk about the left foot , right hand, wrist etc. (sod the lefthanders - tehy have to look in a mirror!)
So from now on, all descriptions of skis and turns should be based on a turn from the right side of a piste to the left - now you never need to worry about whether it is the uphill/downhill/inside or outside ski - it is just you right ski and your left ski
Da-daaaaaaah
Can we get FIS (or BASI whoever) to make this a fundamental basis of instruction
Royalties please messrs and missuses ski teachers
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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sevx112,
" Blimey i'm on a roll -i have solved this one now : we should learn from golf In golf we presume everyone is righthanded, then we just talk about the left foot , right hand, wrist etc. (sod the lefthanders -tehy have to look in a mirror!)"
Ah yes but a one plane or two plane swing! (Maybe we could open up a new thread! )
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Poster: A snowHead
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"Paralysis by analysis" ahh yes good for ruining a naturally talented golfer, apologies abj, shouldn't really be applied to skiing, have a great trip! Ski fast!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 15-02-11 23:00; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
sevx112,
Ah yes but a one plane or two plane swing! (Maybe we could open up a new thread! )
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I personally am a "one-planer" - the 2 planer is the tool of the professionals and those that are destined to pay for lessons and new clubs for the rest of their lives.
ONe plane = increased consistency = usually winning
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sev112,
"-the 2 planer is the tool of the professionals and those that are destined to pay for lessons and new clubs for the rest of their lives."
Hmm! Explains why I'm always skint then!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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sev112, reminds me must get those lie angles checked! Lol!
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FAQ
