 Poster: A snowHead
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I do agree btw that resorts could do a LOT more too. I would have no problem with us style patrollers wandering around the place issuing warnings - which are in the main friendly, unless you are truly behaving like a crackpot. We used to do it at sheffield - with the advantage the liftie has there of being able to see the whole slope anyone seen to be a menance was taken aside as they arrived at the lift and told not to be an ass. No threat was usually even needed, the mere fact someone 'good'/'cool'/'offical' was telling you to back off/you look like a idiot achieved results 9/10 times.....
My only fear is that you are then dependant on a resort being sensible about this - it's not speed per se - it's speed + skill + consideration combo we are talking about here. Buzzing a beginner at 2ft clearance and 30kph not good. 60kph down a near empty trolles to make the uphill to the aeroski all fine on my scale....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| a.j. wrote: |
| My only fear is that you are then dependant on a resort being sensible about this - it's not speed per se - it's speed + skill + consideration combo we are talking about here. Buzzing a beginner at 2ft clearance and 30kph not good. 60kph down a near empty trolles to make the uphill to the aeroski all fine on my scale.... |
Agree, it needs to be a subjective judgement rather than a speed limit. Resorts which get too heavy-handed will probably get a reputation for that, which may or may not prove to be commercially advantageous.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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a.j.,  Yup, we should club together and buy somewhere nice.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd like to see some piste patrol just stop people, blip their lift pass, and in order to get it unblipped, they have to do a half day awareness course. Like speeding. They get shown videos of horrific crashes, and the resulting surgery, and if they get through it and can then pass a simple test at the end of it they get their lift pass back.
If nothing else, removing a lift pass for half a day is a sensible punishment as well as doing some good to educate people who probably haven't ever been taught the code of conduct stuff. The number of large groups I see stopped bang in the middle of a piste with an instructor in front of them demonstrating stuff, they can't be getting told the rules, or they'd be stopped somewhere more sensible.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I wonder how many of these sliders have smartphones in their pockets with apps that record their 'top speed' 
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Monium,
That seems a bit extreme. Banning people for half a day because they stopped in the middle of the slopes??
Skiing can be a very dangerous sport, and on the continent people are allowed to free ski alone without any previous experience, it's really quite mad when you think about it.
I think logically speaking there should be a form of universal grading system (similar to a driving test) in where the mountain user has to be of a certain level before they can free-ski. One would be graded on basic technique, basic conduct etc. and also mountain awareness and basic survival as I'm sure many skiers (including myself) wouldn't know the first thing about dealing with a survival situation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Timberwolf, probabally quite a lot, had a few instructors recently moaning about just that in a recent 'grumbling' session
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I don't advocate beginners hurtling down the slopes at breakneck speeds whilst completely out of control, but come on! people go skiing because it's fun, and all skiers keep pushing themselves to do something a little harder/faster each time. Over 90% of the people on the slopes are unsupervised, we all travel at speed, there are obstacles around, accidents are going to happen. I wouldn't call myself a good skier and I haven't crashed into anyone on the slopes for at least 15 years, but some of the posts sound as though "the scummy oiks shouldn't be allowed onto OUR mountains until they reach the high level of achievement that I have reached!" Lighten up!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| gary wrote: |
| "the scummy oiks shouldn't be allowed onto OUR mountains until they reach the high level of achievement that I have reached!" Lighten up! |
Well not quite, but people who don't have proper control over their speed shouldn't be allowed to hurtle down the slopes at break neck. Although you haven't had a collision in 15 years it doesn't make them uncommon. My uncle recently got back from the very Icy 3V and said he nearly snapped when some French bloke skied into a British lady who had right of way (the French bloke was joining the main slope that she was already on). The poor old lass was in tears, and all the French bloke could do was argue blind it was her fault.
I've never been in a car crash in 20 years, but they still happen.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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gary, valid point, but I'm not picking up this vibe....
| gary wrote: |
| "the scummy oiks shouldn't be allowed onto OUR mountains until they reach the high level of achievement that I have reached!" |
.....
at all, what i see is people rasing concerns along the lines of your opening statement
| gary wrote: |
| I don't advocate beginners hurtling down the slopes at breakneck speeds whilst completely out of control |
I just think that as pistes get busier as, hopefully, more and more people get to enjoy the mountains, and better, highly quality equipment enables people to progress much faster, that people don't forget that you're never too good for some instruction and that everyone needs to respect others on the hill and stay within their respective level of ability.
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I think you just have to accept the inherent risk, you're sliding down a mountain on a pair of wooden sticks. Its going to hurt a bit now and then but 95% of the time when you hit the deck you're going to get nothing more than a few bruises.
I took someone out when I was learning and I've since been taken out. You lot would have hated me in my first two weeks on snow, I was exactly who you're moaning about and as such I don't really care when I see people hurtling down the slopes. On my 4th day on snow I attempted to straightline in the tuck position the OK run in val d'isere from well above the final bend. My instructor was not amused. Isn't that all part of the fun?
(I have since become a decentish skier, arc to arc carved turns, BASI (the lowest level) qualified.)
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Reading this thread I have to say I agree with many people's points but every single post by rob@rar makes absolute 100% sense to me!
All I'd say is that anyone, and I mean anyone, who hasn't the skill to safely stop at speed or take safe evasive action to avoid say a child that's swerved in front of them a couple of metres ahead is not skillful enough to be going at the sorts of speeds that are often seen on slopes. I don't care if people have skied fast for years without incident that just probably means they're overdue an accident! Speed often masks inadequate technique and ability, if someone regularly skis fast they should try slowing it all right down and if they can't do it (maybe ending up on their backside) then their speed is masking inadequacies in technique and if anyone like that feels the need to go fast they should get some lessons and learn how to do it safely and if they don't want to do lessons they shouldn't speed, seemples!
BTW, I quite frequently have 'words' with people I consider unsafe on snow as well as dry, particularly if I consider they endanger me and/or my clients and those occassions I usually use the incident as a means of reinforcing the safety code with my clients too - IMHO safety is an integral part of teaching people at any level. As for instructors not mentioning the code I find that idea a bit odd - after all the out of control skier or boarder wiping out an instructor could mean they end up with a season or even career ending injury as happened recently to a friend of mine!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
if someone regularly skis fast they should try slowing it all right down and if they can't do it (maybe ending up on their backside) then their speed is masking inadequacies in technique
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roga, this becomes very obvious on dry slopes which quite brutally expose flawed technique. Yet watch a good technical skier on the dry and you could swear they were on real snow - lovely to watch.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| a.j. wrote: |
| My only fear is that you are then dependant on a resort being sensible about this - it's not speed per se - it's speed + skill + consideration combo we are talking about here. Buzzing a beginner at 2ft clearance and 30kph not good. 60kph down a near empty trolles to make the uphill to the aeroski all fine on my scale.... |
Agree, it needs to be a subjective judgement rather than a speed limit. Resorts which get too heavy-handed will probably get a reputation for that, which may or may not prove to be commercially advantageous. |
This is something challenging in "Slow Skiing Zones" in the US... It really is relative, and if the enforcers don't know what they are looking for, it can get ugly in a hurry.
When I took my L II exam at Breckenridge a number of years ago, the Examiner (who demonstrated his qualifications by this move) asked us to do our RR track turns on a pitched portion of a Slow Skiing trail! I arced 'em out for him as requested, but a patroller saw me and chased me down on his snowmobile. Even though I was careful to stay away from the others on the trail, he read me the riot act. When asked, I let him know that I was in a PSIA exam and attempting the maneuver as requested by the Examiner.
I let the Examiner know that he owed me a "pass" after forcing me to do that and have the conversation with the patroller!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
he nearly snapped when some French bloke skied into a British lady who had right of way (the French bloke was joining the main slope that she was already on).
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Is there a rule which gives somebody already on a "main slope" (whatever that is) right of way over somebody "joining" it?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
he nearly snapped when some French bloke skied into a British lady who had right of way (the French bloke was joining the main slope that she was already on).
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Is there a rule which gives somebody already on a "main slope" (whatever that is) right of way over somebody "joining" it? |
Downhill skiers have right-of-way, and you are to "look uphill when entering or crossing a trail" in the US. In Europe, it's worded a bit different, but similar in meaning:
Overtaking: Overtaking is allowed from above or below, from right or left but always with a distance so that the skier being overtaken has space enough for all his movements.
Entering and restarting: Every skier entering a trail or starting after a halt has to assure himself uphill and downhill of the fact that he can do so without danger for himself and others.
(Ref: http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/82663/skier-rider-code-of-conduct)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Since Julesb had his neck broken in a collision from behind , I've been rather more aware of piste safety. The section of the piste where the accident happened is now so loaded up with netting, that it is almost impossible to ski too fast without colliding with the nets. ON a couple of occasions, I ended up on the 'road' which runs above the section due to the directional arrows on the netting guiding me there. As his accident didn't involve the piste patrol , I reported it to the Compagnie des Alpes afterwards, and asked them about the Skiers Code, which didn't appear to be prominent at the time. We now have 'Ski Tranquille' areas and many more posters on lift pylons and notice boards. I suppose all of these suggestions I made would have already been under consideration, but it would be nice to think we had made a difference and prevented the same thing happening there again. They did offer us a meeting with the local director of skiing which we were unable to take up.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The number of slope deaths in Austria has risen sharply this year, it stands at almost 40 now but the season for many resorts still has over a month to go.
It might be that this year the piste deaths in Austrian are higher than the off-piste deaths. 
Edit 39 piste deaths to 8 offpiste deaths so far in Austrian this year
Article in German
http://oesterreich.orf.at/stories/503086/
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Experts say that comparably little snowfall could have be a main reason for the high number of skiing deaths this winter. They have explained that such weather conditions have negative effects on the condition of pistes, making them more icy despite most winter sport resorts’ usage of snow-making machines. Excessive speed and skiing under the influence of alcohol is nevertheless regarded as the dominating problem.
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http://www.austriantimes.at/news/General_News/2011-03-01/31027/Austrian_skiing_death_toll_up_sharply
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 8-03-11 16:43; edited 1 time in total
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I've only been involved in a couple of collisions - once in a ski school snake, the person behind me slipped on the entry to their turn and they slid into me as I was below them - no harm done, but a bit of a tangle. The other one was on the exit to a 6 man chair where I found myself with nowhere to go. I make it a rule that I must go no faster than I can stop in about my own length (or avoid if need be). That stopping might not be graceful, but it will be done. My OH is of a similar opinion - the first thing he made me prove I could do before taking me off on more interesting (blue/red) slopes was a hard stop on his command.
BUT I generally ski with a similar mentality to how I drive - and I learned to ski after driving for several years, so the collision avoidance and anticipation instincts have had time to develop in a less chaotic system (uk roads) than on a mountain.
I am also a control freak, so being out of control is not something I enjoy!
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| Quote: |
Few ski accidents are collisionsThe vast majority of skiing accidents involve just one person, a sport safety organisation has revealed.
The Austrian Committee for Alpine Safety (KfAS) said today (Tues) just 10 per cent of accidents on the slopes were collisions of two or more skiers or snowboarders. The organisation explained that the vast number of incidents involved just one skier or boarder.
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http://www.austriantimes.at/news/General_News/2011-03-08/31239/Few_ski_accidents_are_collisions
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB, I wonder how many are skiers taking avoiding action due to the action of others? I've seen more wipeouts caused by near misses than I have actual collisions, but I'd still consider them incidents involving two or more skiers.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB, ouch. Nasty report about the snow groomer hurting a colleague (sounds like the old boy should be retired) and on the same page, a small child killed instantly when hit by a groomer.
I know we've had this discussion before, but coming from an area where piste bashers are never moving on pistes which are open, it gives me the willies to even think about it.
Yes, a wipeout because of an attempt to avoid a collision would certainly count as a "two skier" incident in my book, but it would be difficult to identify them after the event, for the purpose of statistics.
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I guess all this out of control speed is a sign of changing times.
In the past, there were mainly two types of skiers. Those that were brought up on the mountains and skiing and ski code was second nature to them. And those that wanted to learn to ski, and wanted to ski well, and would take lessons and ensure they did everything right. Skiing used to be quite an exclusive sport.
Nowdays the biggest growing group are those of 'holiday makers'. People grabbing cheap flights on budget airlines and just wanting to let their hair down and have a bit of fun. The emphasis for the holiday is relaxation and fun, certainly not lessons! I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, because this means more investment for ski resorts, and besides people should be allowed to have fun - that's what being on holiday is about.
But you can see why the average standard of skill on the slopes has fallen. And why there are more people drinking and skiing, and people skiing quickly and crazily as their way of unwinding.
It's happened in other sports as well. Golf used to be a more exclusive sport. Now with falling green fees and equipment prices, there are hundreds of people hacking and playing air shots around the course.
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You know it makes sense.
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| bum wrote: |
| In the past, there were mainly two types of skiers. |
How long ago are you talking about?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Interesting thread. Saw far too many people hurtling down the mountain this year with very little control, and more importantly, very little concern/consideration for others.
On the last day (fortunately) in the Espace Killy, I got taken out by some french bloke. We were skiing down the blue to Le Fornet, I was mosying on down when I got flipped over by this guy who ran right through me from behind. Total yard sale, smacked my head (helmet probably did its job). He grabbed his stuff, laughed at me and skied off, leaving me in a heap. Not even an apology. I'd like to say I clipped into my skis, tracked him down and beat him about the head. But, in fact, I sat at the side of the slope a bit shaky, trying to figure out if I'd broken anything. I had excruciating neck pain for about a fortnight but fortunately no lasting injury.
Next time I'm taking my duelling pistols. Gobshite.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Tordi, my brother-in-law had a similar experience in Meribel last season. The only difference was that he sustained 15 broken ribs, a broken collarbone and a cracked vertebra. Because he developed a lung infection (common with a chest injury) he nearly died. Luckily he's OK now, save for extreme neuropathic pain in his hand, arising from a damaged ulnar nerve. Gobshites indeed. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Pedantica, I'm glad he is ok. If only people could think about the consequences of their actions sometimes! I suppose accidents happen, but I bet so many of these cases could be avoided if people could just follow the simple rules of the hill.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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My other half had to purposely trip up and berate an out of control british snowboarder on holiday a couple of years ago with his ski poles as the guy was going straight down a learner piste shouting at people to move out the way. It was a good thing too as only a little further off was a caterpillar of tiny children in ski school. The snowboarder then also got an earful from the ski school instructor who also advised the other half to "hit him with your ski poles next time"
I think there does seem to be quite a lot of macho posturing amongst skiers these days for all trying to ski as many pistes as possible in a day whereas personally I just love the sensation of gliding down lovely groomed slopes and would be happy to never ski anything harder than a short easy blue all holiday! Also I think sometimes in ski lessons the people who want to ski hardest and fastest are usually also the loudest and pressure the instructor/group to go further out their comfort/skill zone than concentrating on skill and confidence. That happened to me once and really put me off alpine skiing for a while and now these days I much prefer private lessons to push me just enough to improve my skiing and not leave me behind freaking out at the top of a run on my own.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yep, it's definitely dangerous out there. I went up to Arapahoe basin a couple weeks ago, to take some pictures for an article I've written about how to stay safe on the slopes. It had just opened for the season, and had bunches of people packed on the infamous White Ribbon Of Death (WROD), so I got lots of useable shots. I'll share a few.
One of the biggest problems is people passing of skiers too closely. It might be out of ignorance of how it can startle the person being passed, or sometimes it's just because the passing skier doesn't have the skills to do anything different. Translation; they're out of control. Here's a sequence example of a low skilled skier passing a lady so close it startled her into a fall.
[img]http://www.skiervillage.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2090&d=1351278176[/img]
Skill lacking man in black passes closely at high speed and scares slower skiing lady in red.
[img]http://www.skiervillage.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2091&d=1351278292[/img]
Scares her into a fall. Her husband tries to lend a hand.
[img]http://www.skiervillage.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2092&d=1351278414[/img]
But she was spooked and distressed to the point of not wanting to ski anymore. Walked down.
And here's another example. Young racer completely in control, thinks passing a "gaper" this close is not a problem, but it can really give the person a fright.
[img]http://www.skiervillage.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2093&d=1351278930[/img]
Over here I see the problem as two fold. First, it's ignorance. A large percentage of people just don't understand the rules of the slopes. Second, there's a lack of enforcement, so little education is taking place. Need to get the guys below doing more than just watching. Need to crack down.
[img]http://www.skiervillage.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2094&d=1351281324[/img]
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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FastMan, good photos, I'd be keen to read your article too if you have a link.
We skied A-Basin a couple of days last season and I loved it up there but I did have an incident of exactly the kind you describe. I was skiing with a group, around 6 of us, and we were coming down off Lenawee to regroup at the huge big sign at the intersection there, where I'm sure there is an enormous 'slow' sign! Anyway I was skiing slowly as I was within a few feet of the sign and some guy came from above and the right of me quite fast and skied so close that he actually clipped my hand and pole  I was really lucky, any closer and it could have been really bad news. I was a bit freaked and I shouted at him, he kind of shrugged and skied off. It was at the end of the season, the place was relatively quiet, there was heaps of space for everyone, I don't get why he had to ski so close.
I don't know what the answer is. I do worry more and more now about getting taken out.
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FastMan, Can't see the photos but the skiers' code beyond being about skiing in control and showing consideration doesn't have any specific rules on "scaring" people. Only punks (usually in my experience unfortunately race kids) get a kick out of buzzing other slope users but there are some environments where it is impossible to avoid getting in what a very timid skier may regard as their exclusion zone. For example an indoor slope would be practically unusable if better skiers and boarders didn't weave a path around the slower movers.
I'm not denying that there is a problem but there is a need on mixed use slopes for all users to ensure they are up to it.
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FastMan, the thing with both those photos of the 'incidents' is the sheer amount of space that there does seem to be beyond the skier being 'buzzed' - it surely isn't necessary to pass that close - as an instructor who was with me pointed out to someone that collided with me on a lesson in a similar situation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nothing scares me more than skiing down a busy green or blue home run at the end of the day!
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| roga wrote: |
| Nothing scares me more than skiing down a busy green or blue home run at the end of the day! |
Yup - carnage, people who don't look before setting off, people who can't handle inevitable bumps, snowploughers and blue run heroes all merged into one. Takes me forever as try to wait for gaps in traffic.
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FAQ
We could even have those extra run gradings we like to discuss on here too 
