 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Also, why on earth does an 18 year old want to go on a school trip. At 18 i was on a holiday with my 18 year old mates
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I'd just like to clarify the specific point I was making:
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| Often, after a lesson, she is in a group of 10 with a teacher (not an instructor) when faced with a few route-options which all converge at a point lower down. The teacher, quite rightly, will always take the route favoured by the weakest skier and will not allow the stronger skiers to take different routes |
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I was not advocating rebellious, naked halfpipe 360's while smoking a spliff and drinking grappa.
I should have worded the last sentence better: instead of the word "bypass" I should have used "re-assured the school that they were responsible young adults"
I know that schools (especially the governors) have to shield themselves from the merest hint of negligence. And I know that this paranoia stems from the increasingly litigious culture we find ourselves in. And I know that when on a school trip you obey the school's rules. But it was a serious question about amending the rules in certain situations.
We're so fcuking terrified of taking even a quantum amount of risk these days. So no, it most certainly wasn't a joke.
A teacher was recently sacked for taking his class sledding!
(James the Last Schoolmaster? rugger scrum? Were you at school with Tom Brown?)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thank God my kids went/go to schools with a different ethos!
Teacher sacked for taking two kids sledding for 10 mins on a proper sled (with a brake) in Wales....
At my daughter's school the teachers handed out the metal trays from the dining room and took about fifty girls to a local hill for an afternoon of fun.
The school was not operating as normal because of the snow and these were mostly boarders and a few day girls that made it in.
Far from being reprimanded...the school emailed pictures of the fun to all parents with a comment along the lines of Girls Just Want to Have Fun.
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jzBun, the situation will depend on the policy of the LEA (assuming that we are talking about a school under LEA control). Many LEAs will not allow any skiing outside of lessons which have to be with a qualified instructor. Others are more "sensible/flexible" and will allow free-skiing under the supervision of a suitably qualified teacher (Alpine ski leader or equivalent). Usually where this is allowed then the LEA put further restrictions on the free-ski, such as they can only ski blue runs or they can only ski pistes that they have done that day with the instructor. Without knowing these specifics, it's hard to comment any further regarding this.
My suspicion is that when they are talking about insurance, they are referring to something like the LEA/School's public liability insurance, rather than your daughter's ski insurance policy.
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Perhaps a slightly different issue, but one that still annoys me is that, if this trip happens to occur during term time, and if the 18 yr old wanted to organise their own parallel trip to the same hotel at the same time to do the same skiing and ski by themselves, they would have to apply for permission to leave the school during term time and might be refused. Yet the school gets away with taking all the kids away because it is a 'school trip'.
(N.B. I know that is a huge sentence with too many commas, but I can't be bothered to alter it)
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rob@rar, completely barking IMV, the H&S wonks have gone crazy 
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Megamum, no they wouldn't, school's not compulsory after 16.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| rob@rar, completely barking IMV, the H&S wonks have gone crazy |
That might well be true, but nevertheless stuff like that happens from time to time and that's the environment that schools operate in. The example that Dave_A quoted is even more relevant.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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clarky999, but what about all that was written above about joining in with the school rules if you decide that you want to attend after age 16 and therefore being asked to comply with the rules on the school skiing trip despite being 18 years old?
N.B. Clearly I am only playing devils advocate here to explore the possibilities
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, only a small minority of school ski trips take place in term time, and of those I suspect that the majority are restricted to those not taking important exams.
If I am running a trip of any variety, then those that sign up for it do so knowing the rules and expectations. If they are 16, 18 or 21 has no bearing on the duty of care that I have to provide - indeed I have a similar duty of care towards the staff that I take on the trips with me. And if there is any doubt, then you have to take the safest option.
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Quite. Even the staff are expected only to ski with an instructor. One reason why, when I joined school ski trips (always in school holidays by the way) it was under my own steam and at my own expense.
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You know it makes sense.
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but what about all that was written above about joining in with the school rules if you decide that you want to attend after age 16 and therefore being asked to comply with the rules on the school skiing trip despite being 18 years old?
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Megamum, I'm sorry, I've read that 3 times and I'm not at all sure what you're asking.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just look at all the adverts on telly by the ambulance chasing lawyers to see why the school has rules like that. rob@rar has it spot on, its not to spoil the fun the rule is there it is because of the risk averse society we live in!
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Poster: A snowHead
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School trip, school rules apply. Quite simple. Regardless of age, a school pupil is still under the full resposibility of the school, or if on a trip, the party leader of that trip. Teachers, classroom assistants, office staff, anybody who has responsibility for pupils have a duty of care to ensure the safety of all pupils, whether it is in the classroom or on any sort of trip.
A school skiing trip is tremendously hard work, from the moment letters go out to pupils, to their safe return at the end of the trip.
Parents are informed of the conditions of the trip and the rules which apply to the trip prior to parting with their money, so are fully aware of what their child is able or unable to do.
Accidents can happen to the best skiers, or on the easiest slopes, and as teachers we have to limit the chance of accidents happening by managing the risks involved at all times from boarding the bus at the school gates.
The responsibility for the care and safe return of 90 or so 11-18 year olds for 9 days is paramount.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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they would have to apply for permission to leave the school during term time and might be refused. Yet the school gets away with taking all the kids away because it is a 'school trip'.
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no they wouldn't, school's not compulsory after 16
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We drove to Folkestone the Friday before half term at the same time as the school trip. My son in Y12 (aged 17) was marked down as having unauthorised absence (his brother in Y10 was allowed the day off:~/ ) while the Y12s on the trip had authorised absence (something to do with EMA which he doesn't receive anyway). I can't imagine their trip was any more educational than ours.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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scooby_simon, do you think your son would want you on his school trip? I would have died if my parents had gate-crashed one of my trips!
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Dave_A,
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If they're on a school trip then the teachers and school have a duty of care regardless of their age.
Here's a sobering example of what can go wrong with an "intermediate skier" on a school trip.
http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=350164
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Thanks for posting that/
That is an article that goes straight to the heart of why (sadly) 18 yr olds have to comply with the rules imposed on them, once hurt there is no regard for personal responsibility, that evaporates very quickly in the court room and they revert from being young adults more than capable of looking after themselves to being children who were not supervised properly.
A lot of teachers who go in ski trips will have done their Alpine ski leader course to allow them to guide a group on piste. If a child is genuinely a higher level skier then the ski school will recognise theis and will usually take the more able kids on more chalanging terrain in the mornings.
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rob@rar, There was a possibility that I was going to be asked to go on my Daughters school ski trip,
One look at her face when the subject was mentioned to me was more than enough to tell me that i should be 'unavailable' for that particular request.
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kevindonkleywood, 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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james75,
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| School trip, school rules apply. Quite simple. |
Once again someone who has simply failed to read the thread properly.
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| And I know that when on a school trip you obey the school's rules. But it was a serious question about amending the rules in certain situations. |
This is not about breaking the rules and conditions of the trip. I never argued for that. This is about setting/amending the rules!! Not when already out there but when the trip is conceived.
Sounds like you selectively read a few lines and then fired off like reactionary DM reader. Are you Ann Widdicombe and do I collect £5?
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jzBun, Im not sure what you are trying to get at here?
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This is not about breaking the rules and conditions of the trip.
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The trip conditions and rules are (it would appear) already set out and many people have posted explaining why these rules are (sadly) required. So a change after booking is IMV a bending if not a breaking of the 'rules'
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This is about setting/amending the rules!!
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IMHO: No its not!
Im sorry again but from my reading (and I have been wrong many many times  just ask my OH) it was about subverting the rules to allow a sub group of children to have more freedom than the others on the trip based on a non expert (and possible self) assesment of their abilities and the ability of their parents to pay for more insurance.
I agree that its sad that we are forced to curtail the personal freedom of kids to explore the boundaries of risk, and yes I would say that it is making the next generation less aware or real risk because of it. The Scandanavian approach is much more healthy, If the kids get hurt when at school well that is teh parents fault for not developing the childs awareness of risk.
Sadly as demonstarted by Dave_A's posting, all too often parents who wanted the freedom for their child (whilst they were not there to take responsibility) are the same parents who are straight on the phone to the layer when their child hurts themeslves whilst exploring those freedoms.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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School trips aren't all about the skiing..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Clearly a school has a perfect right to lay down rules for school trips as it sees fit. But that doesn't make the particular rule referred to by the OP any less asinine than if the teachers had insisted that each children should wear a feather boa whilst skiing to aid identification on the slopes. It also supports the view - widely held outside the educational establishment - that, in their obsession with health and safety, schools are abdicating their responsibility to develop children into rounded human beings who are able to make sensible decisions and take responsibility for their own actions.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| scooby_simon, do you think your son would want you on his school trip? I would have died if my parents had gate-crashed one of my trips! |
As he gets older; probably not; but at the mo he thinks it's very cool that dad teaches people to ski; and that he gets to come and play too at times; we have a Group at Gosling(50+; Thursday Mornings) that expect my kids to appear at school holidays while I am teaching!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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kevindonkleywood
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| So a change after booking is IMV a bending if not a breaking of the 'rules' |
If it's sanctioned by the school it is neither bending nor breaking the rules but changing them. Nothing is set in stone, terms/conditions/rules/exposure to risk constantly change otherwise how would be in our current risk averse culture.
But we're arguing over semantics and point of view whilst broadly agreeing that things could be better. We know that schools' hands are tied.
The real issue here seems to be one of inaction.
Everyone who has posted on this thread, irrespective of their views on this specific issue (freedom of 18 yearolds to ski freely) has agreed on one thing:
We, as a society, have a problem with the balance between freedom and H&S. Personal responsibility v blame/liability/litigation etc. Yet we do nothing about it.
I got involved with Simon Singh's campaign to change liable laws, which were archaic and completely unbalanced. The laws will change because of this campaign.
We need a campaign to change the laws or the interpretation of the laws so that a judge cannot arbitrarily and very subjectively decide, as in the case you mention, that the teachers' actions were negligent.
How many of you would have removed the lift pass from the sixth former?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jzBun,
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We, as a society, have a problem with the balance between freedom and H&S. Personal responsibility v blame/liability/litigation etc. Yet we do nothing about it.
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Very true.
EDIT:
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| How many of you would have removed the lift pass from the sixth former? |
Hmm a very tricky question that one,
Clearly the answer should be 'yes definitely I would have acted immediately' I suspect that in reality very few would have taken away the pass, prefering instead to take the 'path of least resistance' with both the pupil and their parents.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We need a campaign to change the laws or the interpretation of the laws so that a judge cannot arbitrarily and very subjectively decide, as in the case you mention, that the teachers' actions were negligent
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I very much doubt the judge made this decision on a whim, but rather on the full facts of the case!
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How many of you would have removed the lift pass from the sixth former?
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Who knows, but if I was a parent with a kid on a school trip and that kid repeatedly broke the rules by going off piste I would fully expect a teacher to take the pass away. Do you not feel the same way?
A previous poster (a recent former pupil) mentioned that kids should be moved between groups of differing abilities. Does this not happen at your daughters school? After 4 weeks skiing would she even be in the top group?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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libel - defamation in written or recorded form
laible - prone to, responsible for, subject to
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Back in the good old days, before health and safety went mad. I went to a place called Cauterets in the Pyrenees with the school every year, part of the trip (as it was a RC school) was a day trip to Lourdes. The last time I went, I was in the 5th year and there was a about 4 of us who had been every year and had already been to Lourdes 4 times, the teacher came into the dorm the night before and said OK lads tomorrow you just discreetly sneak off.
He knew we were sensible and capable enough, but can you imagine that happening now !!!.
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Kel,
If you had just gone that 5th time you would have been cured. I bet you regret it now 
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| Kel wrote: |
Back in the good old days, before health and safety went mad. I went to a place called Cauterets in the Pyrenees with the school every year, part of the trip (as it was a RC school) was a day trip to Lourdes. The last time I went, I was in the 5th year and there was a about 4 of us who had been every year and had already been to Lourdes 4 times, the teacher came into the dorm the night before and said OK lads tomorrow you just discreetly sneak off.
He knew we were sensible and capable enough, but can you imagine that happening now !!!. |
But it shouldn't have happened then either. There is nothing mad about exercising a proper duty of care to young people in your care: your teacher simply didn't and had there been an accident he would even then have been in very deep merde.
(for goodness sake, why can't I simply write s h i t without it being changed a childish poo-poo)
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Who knows, but if I was a parent with a kid on a school trip and that kid repeatedly broke the rules by going off piste I would fully expect a teacher to take the pass away. Do you not feel the same way?
I'd say very few parents would, especially when they will take their child's word for what happened over an adult's/teacher's. Which is what generally happens.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
http://www.physics.uofl.edu/williger/unskilled_and_unaware_1999.pdf (BTW this describes me perfectly )
This drives the 'tabloid effect' where a little information becomes a dangerous thing and we feel able to think we have a better understanding of the subject that those that have the real expertise. We know better about educating our children than the teachers, we know more about health than our doctors etc
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kevindonkleywood, quite so, a good example of which is the 'skiing hurts' thread, where several folk have given 'advice' based on a 'little knowledge' and a 'little information', but seem to believe it to be correct. In my opinion (ha here we go!), it is the snowheads with the higher number of posts who are more guilty of the 'tabloid effect'. As a relatively new snowhead i now wait for the pack to turn on me.
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Even with a ski school the qualified instructor will have liability issues with any group (of any age range) if they allows their group to do their own thing whilst under their 'duty of care'.
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and that's probably what jzBun, is trying to argue is the fault of "society" - WHY have they got "liability issues" ?
From kevindonkleywood himeself,
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The Scandanavian approach is much more healthy, If the kids get hurt when at school well that is the parents fault for not developing the childs awareness of risk.
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I think I might need to re-locate. How damn sensible.
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In a lot of areas of life people tend to overestimate their own abilities the less competent we are at something the more likely we are to overestimate our own abilities and those of others. This is particularly noticable in teenagers
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Quite. So how does one develop this sense of risk, of boundaries, of 'the edge' when cotton wool and "mummy state knows best" is the order of the day?
It is a fact that there will be casualites as we discover those limits, and pain and heartache that goes with it. However.
Exploration of those limits is what makes us human, and I would suggest the current litigious society, whilst protecting individuals from themselves, is, in the bigger scheme causing more harm to the human race as a whole.
Good decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions.
(And btw the key word here is "decisions". The inability to make, and take responsibility is stifling in my workplace).
As it happens, in this particular instance of skiing, I revert to "rules set by the trip organiser are the law"
While we are where we are - and I'd dearly love to change it (and Yes, my own mind-set has become equally warped: I fight it, but it is very difficult not to get wrapped up in overestimating the wrong risks) - the teachers have to live in today's world.
Perpetuating it? Yes, perhaps, but such is the sad state of affairs.
So today: no un-supervised skiing when on a school trip, no matter how much I'd love to let them learn.
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FAQ
Thats all 
