 Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, I thought you were asking why inside ski pressure was important? In the old "straight" ski days it was much harder to get a decent carve so, in general and on hard surfaces, more emphasis was put on the outside ski. Also, people are taught to pressure the outside ski because they have an annoying tendency to stay stuck on the "old" ski (ie the new inside ski) as they come into each new turn. Have a look at the pics on Ron LeMaster's site or at any racer and then tell me the inside ski is not important!
There will be more pressure on the outside ski in most turns, just as there is more pressure on the outside wheels of your car in a bend. But which switch on the dashboard do you flick to transfer that pressure?
I'm just popping out to a 24 hr Pine store for some emergency furniture...
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 26-06-05 8:47; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Quite right too
You never know when you'll need it
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hah, David Goldsmith, they do say you should change your mattress every 10 years or so. That one I brought over from the old country has been getting a bit lumpy recently 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Alan Craggs, Sorry to labour this  . So you're saying use the inside ski because it's there? Or so you don't have to do the work of lifting it? I'm not being facetious. Opinions here vary from no reason to pressure your inside ski at all, to always try for 50:50. It isn't obvious and there is no consensus. If we can all ski perfectly well using the outside ski, only lifting or guiding or gently pressuring the inside ski so as not to have to lift it, why should we put any more weight on the inside ski? What do you think about comprex's and Kramer's suggestions?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, before I get blown to pieces, I'm no expert, instructor, etc, etc, so what follows may be complete rubbish, but here's my two penn'orth anyway. Skiing on one ski, even the outside one, is quite hard. It's quite a useful exercise and all that, to feel what it's like and to develop the right fore/aft balance, but you wouldn't want to do it deliberately all the time. A lot of us inadvertently lift the inside ski from time to time. I think this may happen most often when we snatch at turns, usually under a bit of pressure. It never looks graceful or efficient on replay (I've been subject to quite a lot of video analysis - it's torture!) If you've got 100% weight on the outside ski and you hit an unexpected bump or a patch of harder or softer snow, you're going to need your wits about you to survive. I would suggest that having lost control of your outside ski, your instinctive first reaction would be to get some pressure under the inside ski - and then recover the outside one. If that pressure were on the inside ski to begin with, you'd probably hardly notice any difficulty, and would certainly be much less likely to end up on your @rs€. Whether the weight's 50/50 or 80/20 I don't know, but I think you should aim to feel something under your inside ski, so that you can make smooth, instinctive adjustments as necessary, from a solid platform.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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slikedges, my suggestion may well be crap. I am merely a competent skier at best, the reason that I give is just the most common reason that's been given to me in lessons.
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slikedges, You do seem to be getting quite wound up about this. The whole point is that ski-ing is dynamic, therefore there is almost never an absolute. I've given you my reasons, based on my observations over 30 years of teaching ski-ing, you can take any or all of the advice given in this thread, but none of us are right all the time. No ski technique is right all the time and for all people. You seem to be asking for the absolute which doesn't exist. From this I would deduce that you are relatively inexperienced. With experience comes the ability to change and vary what you're doing at any given moment in time. However, if you're not properly balanced on your skis, and you're not pressuring your skis correctly IMO to TRY to put weight on the inside ski is likely to result in falling into the hill, skidding, rotation and so on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Hah, David Goldsmith, they do say you should change your mattress every 10 years or so.
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I agree, Alan, but you're being a bit hard on yourself going for a pine one.
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slikedges, it's true that in almost all skiing it's the outside ski that does most of the turning work (although as pointed out above the inside ski can be used for leading/steering), as it's the outside ski that has more pressure on it (and that helps it grip as well as turn). Have a look at this sequence
Between frame 1 and frame 2 there is clearly a large increase in pressure on the skier's outside (right) ski - but what has the skier done to achieve this? - has his body moved much up, down, sideways? Not a lot I'd venture.
Then look at frame 3 - 2/10th's of a second later - there is no pressure on the right ski at all!
By frame 5 most of the pressure is on the new outside ski. But you can still see the inside ski bending, so there must be some pressure on it.
All this has happened in less than a second - I don't know about you, but I would find it pretty difficult to consciously shift pressure from one ski to the other like that.
I think that that's all most folk here are saying - unless you are deliberately trying an exercise most skiing is done by feeling - a reception of feedback from the snow which is mostly below a conscious level. Hence great skiers can instantly (instinctively) adapt when the snow conditions change and use one or both feet as required, whereas we mere mortals get "caught out" by shifts from snow to ice, hardpack to deep soft, etc. (and maybe also why beginners and people doing "exercises" tend to look very stiff - they are trying to "think" their way through something).
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 31-07-05 19:29; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you look anything like this when you're skiing, I wouldn't worry...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Alan Craggs, thanks for that. The two-ski afficionados would say that lifting the skis, as in frames 3&4, is counterproductive and to be avoided. Why do they say that? I appreciate the dynamic reaction thing. That's natural, and you get better at it with experience. What I'm on about is why the proponents of equal weighting feel achieving this will result in better skiing? Am I being obtuse?
laundryman, your perfectly reasonable suggestion is what Kramer ventured and I think is valid. As far as lifting a ski goes though, it wasn't long ago when all the World Cup slalom skiers seemed to do it and made it look very smooth. I still do it with some flavours of short turn - feels a bit like a skate - but I'm trying not to.
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Alan Craggs, Frame 3 is midway between the two turns and he's just changing his weight and pressure. Frame 5 shows him about to change again, so the pressure is coming back onto the inside/new outside ski. The turn is mostly completed on the outside ski. Because in slalom the turn needs to be completed very early in the line the pressure change occurs sooner than in most holiday skiers' turns. ie: slalom racers almost never "finish" a turn, as their object is to accelerate whereas most holidays skiers turn to decelerate (me too!)
PG, Brill photos, but I suspect that the only Snowhead capable of those sorts of speeds, angles etc. would be Martin Bell. All the photos (except No 2) appear to be GS, which although the shape of the turn is similar to a "normal" turn is conducted at speeds which would send the majority of Snowheads home in a box!
slikedges, I don't think lifting is a necessarily bad thing - a good exercise and occasionally useful in normal ski-ing, but it's a bad habit to get into as it's very hard to get rid of. Old school racers like me do it all the time. I can ski both feet on the ground, but if I'm not thinking my natural turn is a step turn of one sort or another - oh well - old habits die hard! I don't think you're being obtuse at all BTW, it's just that you're looking for a concensus where there isn't one (in ski teaching circles that is). Part of the point of a step turn (whether parallel, skating or stem) is that when you replace the ski on the ground it's already on it's edge so it starts to turn immediatley, thus being much more dynamic. However the carving ski allows a dynamic turn without this, although it's still necessary for racers from time to time when they get late in the gate.
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, I'm not disagreeing with you, as you'll see from the words above the picture  - except I don't think I'd go so far as to say that the inside ski is irrelevant. My intent was to point out that most of the time we (or is it only me?) just ski in response to the prevailing conditions - I don't think that I am aware of how much pressure is on each ski unless I force myself to focus on it, and that there just isn't time to think about which ski has how much pressure on it.
My experience however, for what it's worth, is that learning to ski on hard surfaces with a lot of emphasis on the outside ski makes the transition to powder skiing quite difficult.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, i used to lift in almost all short turns too. I learnt to ski in the late 80's and had several private lessons with a very good but traditional Austrian instructor in the early 90's, so am very much an outside ski skier. I hardly did any skiing in the early part of the new millenium and missed the parabolic ski revolution, so only just bought my first pair this year (B2 - what else?). I had no problem carving my old straight skis but I'm trying to see if being a two-footed wider-stanced skier will help my skiing and changed my skiing this season (though instinctively still return to my old style, which I know works well in most conditions, when I feel challenged). I'm told I've made good progress - I sometimes use a very good coach at MK. I'm not at all looking for consensus. I'm looking for views from the "equal"-weighting fraternity on why they think it's better than being primarily an outside ski skier. I've got to admit I'm surprised no-one else appears to be interested in the answer to this question. There are certainly a fair few experienced people on this forum who have previously declared themselves "equal"-weight practitioners. Maybe I'm missing something...
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Poster: A snowHead
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If you're a racer, study pictures of winners. If you're a recreational learner, listen to your teacher, the one who sees you on the slope. A teacher will give you exercises for different reasons, eg. changing weight distribution, lifting ski etc. to develop leg independence, sensitivity and awareness. When a teacher sees you doing something odd, you may be given a specific exercise to correct the fault. This same exercise could be a lot less helpful to someone else who has different needs.
The great thing about recreational skiing is that it is just like playing. You can experiment, change things, or just muck about, because it doesn't really matter what you do as long as you're not endangering yourself or others.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| slikedges wrote: |
| There are certainly a fair few experienced people on this forum who have previously declared themselves "equal"-weight practitioners. |
They have? I missed that.
I would have just given the link, but it's in the middle of a long thread, one of many on Epic on this topic. This quote from Bob Barnes....
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We have had many discussions over stance width, and one-footed vs. two-footed skiing, over the past year. Some have suggested that today's racers "try" to ski with equal weight on both skis, whereas the "previous generation" (Mahres, et al) skied exclusively from outside ski to outside ski. I don't agree with either part of that statement, but I do see a change, and it surfaces most obviously when racers hit a patch of ice....
In the Mahre's day, they would do exactly as you describe. They would balance (usually) on the outside ski. If it slipped away, they would pull up on the inside leg and increase the angulation of their upper body out over the outside ski, to regain balance exclusively on the outside ski.
I see Hermann Maier still balanced primarily over the outside ski, usually, but not nearly so conscientiously! Like a car, as long as everything is holding well, the weight goes naturally to the outside, and Maier lets it go there. But when HE hits a patch of ice and the outside ski slips a bit, he doesn't do ANYTHING! His inside ski, which was mimicing the outside ski in angle and direction while riding gently on the snow, immediately starts to grip and bear as much, or as little, weight as it needs. Because Maier's stance and accuracy with both legs are so consistent and precise, and because today's skis don't require as much pressure to bend for carving, Maier simply doesn't need to CARE which ski(s) he carves with!
If you buy this thought, it can greatly simplify your skiing! Focus on accurate movements of both feet and legs, so that both skis are available for work at any moment. Develop steering and edging skills that keep both skis parallel and tipped equally, and keep them both on the snow. The same movements will work in almost any snow condition now, from ice to bottomless fluff! On firm, grippy, groomed snow, the weight will go to the outside ski, as I said. On ice, both skis may come into play, as needed. In powder, where both skis are IN the snow, not on it, you need make no adjustment to keep the pressure even on both of them.
This last point, especially, is key. Previously, the conventional advice held that powder was an exception to the rule, where you had to "switch" to two-footed balance instead of one-footed balance. And you always had to decide, based on how deep and soft the powder was, which strategy to use.
Now, you don't have to change anything! The exact same movements that created one-footed balance on the groomed snow will create even, two-footed balance in powder!
As I mentioned, a lot of this change is related to equipment. "Older" skis were so stiff that they really required all your weight, and then some, focused on one ski to get it to bend sufficiently. Now even full-bore race skis are much softer and, combined with their radical sidecuts, they bend easily enough that we can bend both of them at the same time. |
Ie something like the "racing suspension" I was on about earlier...
Carrying on with the motoring analogy, did anyone see Top Gear last night? Attempting and failing miserably to get in a good lap time in the 'E' type I though demonstrated this quite well. The kind of motoring equivalent of skiing on an outside 'straight' ski only, as compared to the advantages of more modern vehicles, with significantly more traction from all four wheels, when necessary, as you take a bend.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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slikedges, I take your point, but cannot help you as I'm not an equal weight practitioner myself!
MartinH, Very good explanation, but does not address the point in question! ie: why would we want to ski 50/50 on groomed piste?
PG, The analagy is very valid between the generations of racers, and correctly points out what was possible before in relation to what's possible now (with respect to carving skis). You do need to think of the level of skier one is dealing with, though.
My original point though (and I still hold to it) is that a skier must first learn to ski on the outside ski before learning anything else. Outside ski pressure works all the time (yes, even in powder) and 50/50 (which is very radical) will not work on hard, steep pistes. One or two posters have said that they find it difficult to make a turn on the outside ski only - if this is the case I would suggest that they are not correctly balanced on their skis to start with, and therefore should work on this before attempting anything more advanced. If you're not properly balanced (yells "balls") then nothing else will work properly either.
Having said all this I agree Alan Craggs, that the whole thing is variable, and I do, myself, often have weight on the inside ski. The point was that when teaching moderate skiers they need to feel that the inside ski is irrelevant because most of them worry about it. This causes them to lean on it and unwinds the end of the turn, causes rotation and all sorts of other little nasties! If there is no weight on the ski then it will go along with it's mate without any effort from the skier. It's where your legs naturally want to be. 
Back to the point: weighting (or not) the inside ski is, to my mind, a quite advanced concept requiring a high degree of body awareness and confidence in the skis. It is my experience that the majority of holiday skiers haven't got to this point yet, and efforts to weight the inside ski seem to lead to rotation. For powder I see no reason to change anything at all. You can carve perfectly well in powder on the outside ski unless it's bottomless, which is extremely rare in Europe. I've only ever once skied snow so deep that I couldn't feel the base (in 49 years of ski-ing). Different in Utah of course! 
It was Ali Ross who originally told me not to change anything when going off piste - and I believe Ali in almost everything - he's the man! I still find it works (quite well even with my slalom skis as those on the bash may attest to).  
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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easiski, I totally agree with the comment not to change your style for going off-piste, it seems to be a common myth amongst some people that you have to ski in a different fashion.
Having seen a guide ski deep powder on just one (much too short) ski after one of the party broke theirs, I can also say that I agree that it is not entirely necessary to spread your weight across two skis.
I don't know as much about skiing as you do, but after learning to put all my weight on the outside ski in the past, it just feels a bit more right in some conditions to have some weight on the inner ski as I have advanced. This was reinforced in my last lesson with one of the instructors from the Arlberg ski school. Perhaps it is because I ski on quite short (176) skis for my weight?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kramer, I think it's just something you come to naturally as you progress in your ski-ing. When you're well balanced you can ski on either or both skis as the need arises, and although I'm hesitant to disagree with the likes of Warren Smith - actually I do!! When you are well balanced your weight will shift naturally from foot to foot, but by then you've probably gone past the point of actually thinking about it.
Of course a lot of people (but hopefully no Snowheads) still think you're supposed to lean BACK in deep snow ............... 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, I've heard that one a few times.
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easiski, I find that the less pressure that you have on the tips of your skis means that they're easier to turn with a quick flick of the hips. If you don't do it then the edges tend to dig in and cause problems.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kramer,  not sure that's in any coaching manuals but if it works for you...
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... although too much pressure on the tips is certainly something to avoid
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Arno, there was an element of sarcasm in that last post of mine. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I agree with everything easiski's said (but then I was an Ali Ross student too!).
The primary reason I remember Ali giving for skiing powder like you ski piste is that powder won't let you skid, so you carve it.
But there should be no doctrines in skiing. As easiski says, once you've learned the ground rules the fun begins! Skiing on the outside ski, inside ski, or both skis, is all interesting. And even rotation can be a lot of fun if the aim is to spin. Speed can be controlled on a medium grade slope with a continuous series of 360-degree spins (though this is a bit eccentric!).
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Kramer, 
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You know it makes sense.
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Is this a fair summary?
We ski-ed on the outside ski on old straights as otherwise they wouldn't bend easily enough. On new bendy skis we don't need to do that, and we can then gain the advantages of skiing on more equally weighted skis:
- easier to stay balanced and maintain form without needing any dramatic corrective action if you hit a difficult or irregular patch of snow with one ski, as you just rely on the other for a sec
(Wear The Fox Hat, Arno, Acacia, laundryman)
- an additional method other than posture adjustment to modulate pressure on the outside ski, usually linked to steering
(Wear The Fox Hat, Arno, Acacia, comprex)
- faster and smoother transitions
(comprex)
- some pressure on the inside ski saves you from having to lift it round corners as it will reverse camber and some pressure on it would prevent it being so easily knocked askew by irregular snow (both not so much advantages of more equally weighted ski, as counters to the disadvantages of outside ski skiing)
(Alan Craggs, Kramer)
- at speed, 2 lots of reverse camber to help propel forwards
(just something I sometimes feel I'm getting)
Apologies if I have attributed anything to anyone they didn't/weren't trying to say or if I excluded anyone else who would have liked some ownership of any of the statements. Please say so and I'll edit as appropriate.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If this is turning into an AR Anonymous thread, you can count me in with the other two self-confessed Rossers
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Goldsmith, Exactly, if you push the heels of your skis out in powder you'll fall every turn!
Kramer, Have you been talking to Lord Whitenoise??????
slikedges, That's a fair summary, but ....... you must remember that balanced posture is the first thing to get right. (I don't mean to imply that you, personally are not balanced - just a general observation).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, totaly agree! (finally )
If you're not balanced in your boots/bindings/skis, then forget about pregressing to more advanced levels.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, probably the best bit of advice in the whole thread, balance is everything
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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One way to ski 100% on the 'inside ski' 100% of the time is to ride a monoski. In powder, after a few days practice, the feeling of skiing on the inside edge of the 'inside ski' becomes natural. In terms of technique you need to be grounded with the technique of stabilising the upper body (because any rotation is amplified on a mono), but the clean powerful carving action of the mono in powder and crud then cuts in - and it's magic.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Quite right too. They are the devil's work.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
The primary reason I remember Ali giving for skiing powder like you ski piste is that powder won't let you skid, so you carve it.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Exactly, if you push the heels of your skis out in powder you'll fall every turn! |
unless you're on Spatulas
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Arno, Where's the photo???
Mono skis are the most dangerous invention ever for sliding around on the mountain. fortunately we see less and less of them, but they still appear every now and then, generally on the feet of someone who can't be bothered to learn to ski properly, but likes having his feet together! Out of control isn't in it. they should all be collected up, cut in half and put on the biggest Guy Fawkes bonfire in the world (IMO). 
I know several ski teachers who teach mono, but if anyone asks for a lesson they all fight NOT to work - even in late January.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski
here is a picture of a spatula.
not sure i can find one of McKonkey demonstrating the "smearing" technique
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easiski, why are they so dangerous? I've never really twigged that before.
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FAQ
