 Poster: A snowHead
|
Then again, the French make sausages deliberately out of pigs' anuses because they enjoy the meaty gastric-juice flavour of a pig anus.
I'm really confused now as to which is worse out of France and Italy.
Can anyone help?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
paulio, France.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Right that's sorted then.
Go to La Plagne. I think it's in Italy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I agree with rayscoops  re Alpe D'Huez.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
paulio,s assessment of Italy is correct if you want to go on the mountain in Cervinia. I've little knowledge of the facilities in the rest of the country.
Only thing with Alpe D'huez is that many of the gentler slopes are also busy home runs. Very wide and gentle though.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 11-08-10 11:29; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I'm going to stop cocking about for a minute.
Alpe d'Huez is alright, there's acres of green runs. But there are some big buts (and I cannot lie).
The greens take a LOT of through traffic which can be intimidating, and the progression runs (Le Couloir is the obvious blue to progress, and there's a red next to it whose name I forget) take my award for "most ludicrously, dangerously overcrowded runs, chopped up into massive heaps of snow, covered in stricken beginners pistes in the world". The other obvious progression runs from looking at the piste map are the ones that link with Villard Reculas, which are badly undergraded and might dampen a timid early-intermediate's confidence. The alternative way back from VR is down amongst the Signal drag lifts, which is a terrifying bit of terrain IMHO (I skied there last season, nowadays as a confident black run skier and boarder, and I still shat myself slightly coming down from Signal).
I would say that AdH is good for an absolute novice, due to the easy access to a lot of nursery slopes, but not so great for a 3rd weeker.
Yours, paulio (who skied Alpe D'Huez as a 3rd week and uncharacteristically timid early intermediate).
Perhaps they should think about going somewhere in Italy instead?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
La Plagne has good Pasta.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yep - Alpe d'Huez has lots of wide confidence inspiring greens (and actually quite a few of them aren't home runs) but it does fall down on confidence-inspiring blue runs
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
There's a funny and intangible thing about what is 'confidence inspiring' to someone and not to someone else.
When faced with "what's a good place for beginners and intermediates or mixed groups", Alpe d'Huez is almost the textbook answer, and I enjoyed skiing there very much now I'm decent - but my abiding memory of it as a novice was walking down from the top of Signal, carrying my skis, and crying.
Which resort "did it for me" you might validly ask? The mega confidence-hike required to go from "a bit scared beginner slash early-inter" to "will have a go at anything well-on-my-way-to-being-advanced" took place the following season. In Verbier. Totally transformed me.
Verbier - that "mecca for experts" and de facto "no good for beginners" resort, where I also taught my girlfriend. Her thoughts on it afterwards were "perfect for beginners".
So conventional wisdom, pinch of salt and all that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
walking down from the top of Signal, carrying my skis, and crying.
|
tart 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I have wept many many tears of frustration as a beginner. Everyone does, though yeah?
Er, guys?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
La Plagne is good for tears.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
that's why the locals call it "Val des Larmes".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
There are some good long cruisy blue and green runs into courchevel 1650. They were all fairly deserted when I was there in mid March this year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
La Plagne is good at 1650 and in March
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Hells Bells wrote: |
| maggi, en France, Servis Compris. Why do you tip? You only need to add a couple of euros if you feel the need. |
Agreed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| D G Orf wrote: |
| Red Leon, I've known a number of beginners who have had no problems on those blues |
Presumably not the nervous types?
| Quote: |
| a few of them are narrow in places but where they are narrow they tend to be very gentle |
They're roads - narrow by design. The very flat bits are a PITA and the less flat bits are just steep enough for the skis to run away but too narrow to make turns on
| Quote: |
| I took some complete beginners from KS to Brandegg on their first morning |
Brilliant for very early beginners who are delighted just to be able to stand up in skis but we're not talking about an early beginner - we're looking for terrain suitable for a timid skiier to be able to progress on.
| Quote: |
| the Blue runs arround Wengen particularly Mannlichn and Brandegg tend to be very quiet |
On my two trips to Wengen, I found that whole area to be very busy and not at all a pleasant experience.
Looks like I'm just not a Wengen fan. If ever I learn to ski a bit better, perhaps I should go back just to check it out 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Red Leon wrote: |
| On my two trips to Wengen, I found that whole area to be very busy and not at all a pleasant experience. |
Shouldn't have gone with a load of snowHeads then! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Red Leon, that's a good distinction you make between some "beginners" and others. I know several people who have already had three weeks on snow, and quite a few (good) lessons, and they're still terrified. Others who, after a week, are happily sloshing down all kinds of stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
pam w, I totally agree, my OH has had 4 weeks on the snow and is still a nervous people and its about really busy slopes and going too fast!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| kosciosco wrote: |
| pam w, I totally agree, my OH has had 4 weeks on the snow and is still a nervous people and its about really busy slopes and going too fast! |
I'm nervous on busy slopes and have been skiing a lot longer than 4 weeks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think anyone who has skied any length of time will naturally become less afraid of steep/deep/choppy/bumpy/bad visibility/narrowness/etc and more nervous of traffic and congestion. It's the worst thing about skiing sometimes. Hell is other people, and all that. Even worse as a snowboarder too IMO due to the asymmetric blind spots, and generally less nimble nature of the damn things. Then again I'm a more capable skier than boarder so that might just be me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
paulio,
| Quote: |
I think anyone who has skied any length of time will naturally become less afraid of steep/deep/choppy/bumpy/bad visibility/narrowness/etc and more nervous of traffic and congestion. It's the worst thing about skiing sometimes. Hell is other people, and all that
|
Yep
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
paulio, but then by your logic you should be less nervous on a board on busy slopes
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Hurtle, kosciosco, yes, crowds make it all much worse, but the sort of beginner I'm talking about is still terrified, on a virtually empty slope, and a really very easy one. So to progress they need sympathetic tuition as well as easy slopes and preferably no crowds. Talk of "two week" skiers or "three week" skiers is really completely pointless. I've known some three week skiers who are still petrified, rigid, clutching their poles like safety blankets, terribly tense. And others who will set off down slopes that I'd think twice or thrice about. Is there any other activity where the language used assumes that ability levels relate in some predictable way to elapsed time? Do people talk of "three week ice skaters", "one week swimmers" or "three-year readers". Indeed the reading example is interesting - reading ability is measured in age, so a 6 year old might have a "reading age" of 12. Or 5. But that only makes sense with a very large population from which norms can be derived - and perhaps a more easily measured set of skills, too.
the language isn't helpful to the people involved, either. to say "she's been skiing four weeks but she's still at beginner level" is undermining and judgemental. If time spent were an accurate measure of ability I'd be a brilliant skier by now - as it is, I've put in loads of time to reach an ability level others can reach in a matter of weeks. So I'm in exactly the same relative position as someone who's been skiing for three weeks and is still scared of an easy green run.
It's very hard to put yourself into the mind of someone who is struggling in that way - some instructors have the knack, but not all. They can do the technical bits, obviously, but the psychological bits are harder. For the ordinary holiday maker (usually the bloke) frustrated by an apparently perfectly capable partner who just "won't" get up a bit of speed, or have a go at a harder slope, you can't beat getting them onto a snowboard (assuming they've never done boarding so would be complete beginners). I often suggest it. Remind them what it feels like to spend the whole journey up a chairlift wondering whether you can dismount without knackering yourself or those around you, and being really quite scared of hurting yourself.
Nothing would be more boosting for the timid partner than a previously invincible king of the slopes who gets scared, falls over all the time, watches 7 year olds whizzing past in total control and generally feels like a total prat. If they're not prepared to "feel like a beginner again" and put themselves in that position, then perhaps they will find it impossible to understand what their partner is feeling?
It's also the perfect way to really get to know which slopes are genuinely easy, and which have a quite tricky section that you never think twice about. As you scrape down the whole way on the edge of your board, chickening out of turning, you think "oh, I never noticed this little bit before".
I don't see how paulio's logic should make him feel safer on busy slopes. One of the big problems of being an incompetent boarder is the fear of taking out a four year old - especially a four year old in a ski school group with an instructor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
If the person in question is really that scared, might I be so bold as to suggest they try a different pastime?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pam w, Once again I agree, which is why I have learnt that the best place for me to be when she is trying to build confidence is as far away as possible! My good intentions to try and "Help" aren't actually the best thing for confidence.
| The Voice of Reason wrote: |
| If the person in question is really that scared, might I be so bold as to suggest they try a different pastime? |
That would be far too reasonable and could make my long term skiing options far more scarce!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
The Voice of Reason, also, some of my acquaintances who are really nervous also enjoy it a lot, and feel very pleased with minor triumphs. they also just love sitting in the sun with a glass of something pleasant and looking at the beautiful surroundings.
kosciosco, have you ever done snowboarding? If not, maybe next trip you should start boarding, get a few lessons and do some slopes together. If your OH can then keep up with you - or even overtake when you're on your backside, she'd love it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| pam w wrote: |
| Hurtle, kosciosco, yes, crowds make it all much worse, but the sort of beginner I'm talking about is still terrified, on a virtually empty slope, and a really very easy one. So to progress they need sympathetic tuition as well as easy slopes and preferably no crowds. Talk of "two week" skiers or "three week" skiers is really completely pointless. I've known some three week skiers who are still petrified, rigid, clutching their poles like safety blankets, terribly tense. |
disclaimer: I am not a ski instructor, and I regard ski tuition as extremely valuable.
I know people like the above, and I'm thinking of one in particular. This person really wouldn't respond well to 'sympathatic' tuition, they would (and have) just dig themelves further and further into reluctance - and quite frankly this guy just needs to be taken somewhere where the only way down is a tricky red, given a kick up the arse, and told to get on with it and stop being a jessie. I'm not saying that's for everyone, but I don't agree that the universal solution is "get an instructor".
It takes all sorts of psychological soup to get a person to be scared of something, or reluctant to do it, or otherwise stuck at the 'conscious incompetence" stage of learning.
My personal "eureka moment", as I've said elsewhere, was deciding to try and teach someone else. As barmy as that sounds for a 3rd week gaper who avoids reds.
All my focus shifted from myself to her, and I just got on with it and all of a sudden found myself not looking at my tips (because I was looking at her), skiing faster (to get ahead of her when she got a bit out of control), skiing steeper stuff (because she wanted to and I didn't want to look a wally), and having to explain technique rather than having it explained to me (which helped me crystallize some of the theory in my mind, by having to put it into words for someone else) - and during that week I went from "blues and greens only, pretty scared" to "anything pisted, bring it on". That happened without the receipt of any tuition, it was just me finding my own way for a bit. I'd obviously had instruction before that, and have continued to pursue it afterwards - and I still regard it as extremely valuable - but my breakthrough happened in its absence.
Different strokes eh. I think some people at certain stages in their learning feel like the only "authorized" way forward is to keep blowing money at instructors - but the receipt of tuition can be draining and stressful, and make you feel scrutinized. This can be counter productive to learning.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
pam w, Exactly my point - if the skiing scares the bejaysus out of them, leave them to soak up the surroundings or do something completely different instead....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
This person really wouldn't respond well to 'sympathatic' tuition, they would (and have) just dig themelves further and further into reluctance - and quite frankly this guy just needs to be taken somewhere where the only way down is a tricky red, given a kick up the back bottom, and told to get on with it and stop being a jessie.
|
I've got a mate who resolutely refuses to improve. 2 seasons ago he and another similar level friend has an ESF bloke for a morning in Courchevel, and he came to lunch with his already fragile confidence strewn all over a tricky red. Last season the same pair had a New Gen bloke in Meribel and they were singing his praises to the heavens. All was rosy for 2 days before one tricky morning and he's straight back to square 1.
No particular point to this rambling tale except to say that I think some people are inherently unable to follow the standard learning curve and are quite happy pottering about on blues and easy reds, with frequent coffee stops along the way, and there's little point in trying to push them further. As long as they have someone to potter around with it leaves me to tear around like a hooligan (as safe and considerate hooligan, I should add), and everyone's a winner.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Yep, that is also an option that exists in my solution space. I wasn't presenting a "get an instructor OR get a kick up the rump" false dichotomy.
And one day the pottering will pay off, and they might have a breakthrough moment. Or they might not.
But in any case, tuition wasn't the solution for that person, and they shouldn't feel that they have to go on a "holiday" that is effectively like a week of school - if that's not what will work for them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Dr John, however good the new gen instructor, he wasn't going to change the world in a morning - a couple of weeks of that kind of tuition would be more like it.
The Voice of Reason, no, they enjoy the skiing. They just find it hard, and scary. I find boarding scary - I empathize.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
paulio & pam w, have to hope the pottering works, because he's convinced himself that tuition won't. It's all horses for wotsits, the fact is he's happy to have a week away with mates and a break from the better half. Me trying to persuade him to improve only ends up creating tension so I leave him to it, meet up for lunch and apres, and all is good with the world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
pam w,
| Quote: |
If time spent were an accurate measure of ability I'd be a brilliant skier by now - as it is, I've put in loads of time to reach an ability level others can reach in a matter of weeks. So I'm in exactly the same relative position as someone who's been skiing for three weeks and is still scared of an easy green run.
|
Are we related?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
La Plagne is good for people that are related.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
... and who produce offspring together?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
pam w, I did bring up the idea of the snowboarding thing, but she said that would be worse as she would worry about me since she considers snowboarding too dangerous.
I think the solution might be to find someone as nervous as my OH and they can go off and have their Eureka moment together, however long that might take. Better that than her killing me for being a poor impatient would-be teacher
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I think the solution might be to find someone as nervous as my OH and they can go off and have their Eureka moment together
|
Hence the LDA week being organised by Butterfly 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
That's not what I meant - the people were lovely, the terrain was horrid. Although, to be fair, my fragile confidence was destroyed by the arrival of almost a foot of fresh snow - which everyone else loved, of course. With fresh sow, a crap technique and confidence at an (as yet 
) all-time low, I imagine I would have found almost anywhere to be horrid. I stand by my view on the lack of terrain suitable for someone in that state, however - I know, I've been there 
