 Poster: A snowHead
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| Wayne, So bascially ski instruction is only something for those who commit to it in their twenties?. |
Not really. What I said was.....
| Wayne wrote: |
| To start training as a ski instructor is seen in most other EU countries as a major career decision. In the UK it’s seen as some sort of pastime and not the start of many years training and hard work that will lead to a professional qualification. OK, not for everyone but for the vast majority. |
You can start this process in your 20's, 30's or 60's as long as (whenever you start) that you really do see the commencement as the beginning of a process and not just to get a (the 1st) badge. Ok, you may only ever get the L1, that's fine, as BASI's standards are rightly extremely high, but CPD is important (insert vital). I just find it a little strange if someone's sole aim is to get the L1.
But the point was that some people see being a ski teacher as something they can play at. From a client's view point, when they pay for a ski lesson they should be able to expect that the person giving the lesson is a "ski instructor", not some sort of snow bound Cub Scout leader. This won't be the case for someone who been recently passed by a BASI trainer, but there are still some places in the UK allow unqualified people, or those who got some badge or other in the 70's or 80's (from any of the plethora of association that issue badges), to teach classes. I don't think this is fair on the students.
Just my opinion so please feel free to shout at me if you disagree. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Wayne, not disagreeing with you but I'm sure we've seen instructors with L1 or L2 qualifications who are decent teachers and do a good job of introducing people to skiing and helping them make early progress. I'm equally sure we've seen fully qualified instructors who aren't willing or perhaps able to teach their clients to an acceptable standard. I'm all in favour of raising the quality of ski teaching, so I'd agree that CPD is vital and I think it's good there is a a proper progression in terms of qualification structure for all instructors including those who want to do this as a part-time occupation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Wayne, do you think a lot of instructors start off getting their level 1 and think "well that was a mildy irrelevant stepping stone, must invest the other £50k, and a lot of time and energy into my level 4", or "cool, guess I'll see if I enjoy teaching?". Instructing for most will only ever be a lifestyle job - I mean, as much as I'd like to be able to do it full time I can't really see how I can make it work. Got to make it as accessable as possible to actually have instructors, surely?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
skimottaret, I wouldn't say I have seen many but I have seen a select few who have persisted, trained hard and are now either very close to the level or have passed. I believe we see a lot less because of the negative vibe surrounding the Euro test in both younger and older candidates. Is it easier to use physical ability as an excuse rather than working hard in the gym or looking at technical and tactical reasons?
|
jjc, You are right in that a lot of passing the ET is motivation and being positive. But I think a lot of the negative vibe that comes from us older guys with families and committments is that we just dont see the value in spending months and months training in the gym and on the hill, weeks and weeks on a glacier, spending a fortune flying out numerous weekends taking the ET loads of time, plus having to endure the inevitable string of injuries to get to ISTD. I have an ISIA and being primarily based in the UK it allows me to do what i want to do as an instructor, taking the training further is beginning to feel like badge chasing. I have no burning desire to teach full time in France so am starting to think whats the point? I would like to do some GS training, mainly for fun and a little challenge but i dont have the time to do say several 6 week courses to get to even get near the level. that sounds negative but is meant to be pragmatic..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
skimottaret, I'm pretty much with you on all of that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Wayne, I think the attitude that everyone paying for ski instruction has the right to expect the best is correct but I challenge that that equates to everyone must be L3+. I've seen Rob teach and while he is only a level 2 (I think at the moment) his students are visibly getiing loads out of it that a "full" ski instructor in ESF doesn't seem to be able to impart to his students. I realise if you say to everyone - you can stay at L1 and teach don't worry , the bar becomes dangerously low but to say you're only worthy if you've been through all the badges is nonsense. A good teacher is a good teacher regardless of what hoops they've jumped through, a bad one remains bad no matter how many boxes they've ticked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
fatbob, yep, the assumption seems to be that once you pass a given level your development stops 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| Wayne, I think the attitude that everyone paying for ski instruction has the right to expect the best is correct but I challenge that that equates to everyone must be L3+. |
I agree - which is why I didn't say it
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
The best way to look at certifications is as recognition of passing milestones. You can of passed them years ago and be way ahead of them, or just barely passed, but the only way to really measure instructors is by having the milestones in place to check in with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| I've seen Rob teach and while he is only a level 2 (I think at the moment) his students are visibly getiing loads out of it that a "full" ski instructor in ESF doesn't seem to be able to impart to his students. |
Thanks  Currently L2, all being well I will complete my L3 next season (a couple of courses to go).
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
rob@rar,
From what I've told by people who know you, you'll have no prolems.
The biggest cause of failure on my last BASI thing was bumps. At L3 it's not enough to be able to ski the ski bumps you have to be able to "ski" "in" the bumps - if you know what I mean - fall line with speed, as well as line changes, troughs, tops, sides, etc, whatever the trainers wants.
I know that in the UK you don't the chance to mash down so my only bit of advice would be to get out to the alps and get in the bumps until you can ski in them.
I would really recommend a course with Lee Townend (now BASI trainer) of Snowworks in bumps skiing. He is a wonderfull teacher and really puts over the skills needed so it simple to understand.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 9-07-10 11:00; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Wayne wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| Wayne, I think the attitude that everyone paying for ski instruction has the right to expect the best is correct but I challenge that that equates to everyone must be L3+. |
I agree - which is why I didn't say it |
Yeah I know you didn't but someone has to be painted as the bad guy in any internet debate  . I share your concern in that I have seen some "qualified" ski instructors who were absolutely woeful skiers in the real world and that this taints the profession as a whole. This is why I assume you don't want to encourage dabblers. But an interested instructor will be perpetually expanding his/her toolkit, analysing other skiers while riding chairlifts etc, trying new things regardless of whether a BASI trainer is telling them to, a "badge chaser" alone at the extreme might be so focused on the pass they effectively cram through a course without wider reflection. Who would you rather have train you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| Who would you rather have train you? |
Do I get a choice - excellent
Can I have
Lindsey Vonn
Clair Bidez (in case I ever want snowboarding as another 2nd displ)
Kiira Korpi (never tried ice skating but....)
Oh and if I can have Eve Muirhead as my teacher I may even take up curling
Yeah I know - dirty old man
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Wayne, yeah, I know Lee. Shadowed him a couple of times. Trying to plan my winter as we speak - it will start in Tignes 28 September and finish in Hintertux 29 May, so plenty of opportunity in between for training.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
I think that everyone paying for anything has the right to expect something to the value of what they paid. Most part-time low-level instructors aren't paid much but actually many don't do it for the money. They do it because they like it. This often means they provide greater value than they are paid to. Nothing wrong with dabblers in my view.
Some ski instructors seek to limit competition by closing the door behind them by making things tougher for those who follow, in the guise of keeping standards high. Others settle for trying to limit the provision of the service merely to those who have attained, well, whatever level they themselves have reached.
Yet others let the quality and value of their service speak for themselves and compete freely whilst being cogniscent of the importance of maintaining safety and service standards to their clients through a trade body.
Overly strict legislated professional regulation of a teaching occupation in which what is being taught is often largely within the scope of an untrained individual, is not of fundamental importance to society, is not a matter of wider public safety etc etc is imo unwarranted and counterproductive to society. It results in greater job protectionism with no benefit to the public.
(edited for clarity)
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 9-07-10 12:20; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
If I wanted to learn basic climbing on a wall, would I need a fully qualified mountaineering instructor, IFMGA guide? No, I would seek a lesson from someone who is qualified to teach single pitch climbing (SPA award). This also makes learning this new activity affordable. This is very much like a BASI level 1 instructor, they serve a place in the market and do a great job.
You are only as good as the service you provide. You may hold all the qualifications in the world, but if you client dont book you whats the point. Im all for keeping it open, keeps us all on our toes, if your good you have nothing to fear!!
PSG
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
gilleski, well said
Top instructors like gilleski are a good example of letting their abilities as skier and teacher speak for themselves. They don't feel threatened because they are that good at what they do and know that anyone can see this. When you are that good you don't worry about dabblers, you just want to make sure they provide a professional and appropriate level of service and take care of their interests alongside those of life-career instructors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| gilleski wrote: |
| If I wanted to learn basic climbing on a wall, would I need a fully qualified mountaineering instructor |
Yes you do. You should go for the fully qualified person.
The biggest problem with the SPA it that non-rock climbers can get it easily (can you think of any non-skier with a L1). There are zillions of companies adverting their "course and with a pass" to people who are not climbers. Many people just whizz up to the SPA training, complete the log book then blag the really simple assessment. In fact some courses are even run in-house by LEA's - whats the point of that. Stick em on a crag and they'd be lost.
Just on this point - I employ lots of outdoor pursuits instructors ( details ) and I will "never" employ someone with just an SPA. OK some of the people with it, are excellent but there is no way of telling if they are or they aren't. The award says nothing about the skills of the person.
This can be compared against a BASI L1. If someone has that award then you know that that a trainer has assessed them to be of a certain standard. There is no financial benefit to the trainer whether they pass or fail, the same can’t be said of some companies running SPA awards. With a L1, the person may be way above the required standard but at least you down at Hemel, or where ever, can guarantee at least a certain level. With the SPA you can't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
My point is I dont want to learn on a crag, I want to learn on an artificial local wall.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
gilleski,
fair enough
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| gilleski wrote: |
| My point is I dont want to learn on a crag, I want to learn on an artificial local wall. |
Well you've got a tall enough stairwell at Hemel - is this next on your plan for world domination?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Its on the list!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| gilleski wrote: |
| My point is I dont want to learn on a crag, I want to learn on an artificial local wall. |
Put a bottle of Bushmills on the top and who needs an instructor 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
I would be up there in a shot! No rope, no technique, driven by pure passion!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If I wanted to start learning something, I'd make a judgement as to how well qualified I'd need my teacher to be, and weigh that up against what I could afford. Most of the time I think I'd be very satisfied with a more reasonably priced individual, trained only to a standard that is fit for purpose, but who has good insight and a good manner as a teacher. Not at all the same as if I was already at a high level with something.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
slikedges The best lesson/guiding I think I've ever had was with someone who I'm pretty sure was only qualified by experience. It was however pretty high end experience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Skiing as a job does become a job, but most of us still enjoy skiing, and the run home without students at the end of the day is a real treat. Skiing all day, however is no longer a real option for most of us full timers. If I had to choose between actually skiing, and teaching skiing, it would be teaching every time. Still love it all though!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just found this.
It's not from Trentino where I work, but it's about standard (the Trentino rules are on 6 pages of A4)
So basically you can work if you're qualified in your home country and you get a letter from the local (Italian) ski school director and send it off to the local AMSI office. It doesn't acctually mention the required level just that you have a "certificate" from your home country
They only mention Italy, Austria and France so not sure if this is the same accross each of these countries.
| Quote: |
Anche in altri Paesi, sia in Europa che negli altri continenti, esistono i Maestri di sci. Non sempre però esiste una legislazione locale che normi e regolamenti questa professione. Per questo motivo accade che spesso si verifichino delle incomprensioni quando sulle piste italiane (o austriache, francesi, …) si incontrino insegnanti che si dichiarino Maestri di sci di questo o quell'altro Paese.
Come Maestri di sci italiani non abbiamo nulla contro i nostri colleghi professionisti di altri Stati che vengono a frequentare le nostre montagne con i loro clienti. Siamo anzi favorevoli ad iniziative di scambio che permettano a maestri stranieri di fare esperienze lavorative nelle nostre scuole ed ai nostri di lavorare all'estero.
La legge regionale del Friuli Venezia Giulia favorisce queste modalità stabilendo, però, che chi opera sul nostro territorio debba possedere un titolo riconosciuto e abilitante alla libera professione. Non si vuole cioè che chi non è autorizzato ad utilizzare un titolo per l'insegnamento autonomo a casa propria, venga a farlo illegalmente qui da noi.
In attesa che a livello internazionale si trovi un accordo per semplificare il riconoscimento dei titoli professionali rilasciati dai diversi Stati, il maestro con titolo straniero che desideri operare presso una delle scuole di sci riconosciute del Friuli Venezia Giulia può farne richiesta al Collegio regionale allegando una lettera di accettazione da parte della scuola in cui vuole lavorare.
Il riconoscimento del titolo straniero ai fini dell'iscrizione all'albo è subordinato al riconoscimento professionale di cui al decreto legislativo 2 maggio 1994 n. 319 e successive modificazioni. |
Note this bit, it does not state what the "approved certificate" is, just that you have to have one.
La legge regionale del Friuli Venezia Giulia favorisce queste modalità stabilendo, però, che chi opera sul nostro territorio debba possedere un titolo riconosciuto e abilitante alla libera professione. Non si vuole cioè che chi non è autorizzato ad utilizzare un titolo per l'insegnamento autonomo a casa propria, venga a farlo illegalmente qui da noi.
Not a literal translation, but it’ll do.
The regional law of Friuli Venezia Giulia is in favour of establishing these arrangements, that those who work in our region must have an approved teaching certificate. We want to point out that those who do not have a certificate from their home country and come here to work, are doing so illegally.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Hmmm, these issues keep coming up, & unfortunately there is no answer.
There has to be some set of qualifications & rules to protect the public, but no set of rules can cater for the infinite variety of the real world.
I've met a lady, Jayne, who is one of the best teachers of kids up to parallel I've ever seen. An ASSI and the bottom Canadian, she knows her piste performance isn't up to a BASI Level 2.
But she will teach all of them, and me, clean of the mountain.
I met a BASI Level 1 teaching in Switzerland last year (which he wasn't qualified to do). One of his class was injured, I assume he dealt with this appropriately. The child was taken down in a blood-wagon.
Here was a man, plastered in the full BASI ski suit, who couldn't carry his pupils skis down a blue run.
It made me ashamed of my qualification.
I season in the Alps. I've seen some great teaching, and I've seen some truely appaling teaching, and often the level of the badge has little relevance.
This isn't a great help for clients looking for good instruction.
For me personaly, I've done my Level 3.
It's an accurate assessment of my skiing ability, but I think, and hope, I teach to a Level 4 standard.
I came to teaching late (in my 30's), I'm now 45, a Level 4 is beyond me in terms of personal performance, I accept that.
I work legaly in Switzerland, and that is Ok.
It takes time, but I let my teaching talk rather than the badge I carry.
Things may have improved in recent years, but I do think there isn't enough emphasis on the teaching side of things in the various instructor exams.
If an Olympic coach could perform to the level of his/her pupil, they would be in the Olympics themselves.
(I seem to recall the head British Olympic swimming coach for many years couldn't swim)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Wayne, what do you think that means, that you have to have a certificate from the country of your passport as you suggested elsewhere applied in Andorra? Or that if your "home" governing body is BASI for example, you need to have a valid teaching certificate from them to teach legally? I think it's most likely the latter with the meaning lost in literal translation, but I'll ask some questions to confirm.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Wayne, do you have the link to the original source of what you've posted? Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Wayne, I've had a chat about this with Dave Renouf and he feels it means you must have a valid and recognised teaching certificate to work legally. It would be in conflict with EU law if it meant that if you were British you had to be BASI etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
