To counter or not to counter? That is the question.

A snowHead

And it still rankles! Embarassed

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RachelQ,GOOD, it had the desired effect then !! Toofy Grin

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OK guys, I'm not going to continue this long, as I'm acutely aware this could be my "non-concentric parallel lines" moment, and I have neither the background nor frankly the interest to go head to head with such an august assemblage, and it's also a bit of a diversion from the main argument. I'm also probably guilty of using technical terminology that I don't quite understand (certainly with which I'm not intimately familiar) incorrectly. But just do one simple test for me.

Stand barefoot on a hard surface, say a kitchen floor near a wall. Lift one leg (say the right) and use one finger/thumb on the wall to stop you falling over (so you're standing on your foot and not angling your leg too much laterally or medially). Rotate the free hip (here, right) slightly forward, say 10 degrees. What do you feel on your foot? I feel an increased pressure on the lateral side of my foot just proximal to my little toe. Do you notice a difference if you flex the ankle and kee a bit more so you're standing more on the forefoot rather than in the midfoot? This was what I meant by supination - so apologies if I used the term incorrectly.

little tiger, I may have missed something, but I'm afraid I saw very little re pronation/supination in that presentation, and where it did (slides 27 and 29) it referred to pronation in early stance, but supination in late stance (which seems to me to be the part of the stride most appropriate to the skiing position).

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which comes first chicken or egg? counter or angulation?

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skimottaret, 1) means and 2) ends.

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GrahamN, Your problem with that is you are balanced on that leg(vertically above it).. when you walk you are constantly falling onto next leg... skiing you are balanced laterally - try it leaning against a wall sideways on inside edge of foot...

Yes it varies depending on where you are - if you start an ILE movement your 'swing' leg is ahead(new outside old inside) - so you "land on heel" just as in walking IIRC- that is why the foot rolls over nicely with the imbalanced weight(your weight is NOT balanced above that foot) - the process of inside hip drive mimics the walking movement

After all it is free

pronation is the motion of the foot to adapt to the terrain it takes place from inital contact until mid stance (hip passing over the leg)...after that the foot starts to supinate to propel the body forward,
pronation = adaptive
supination = propulsive

if we skied in a supinated propulsive position then A we would not have a need for footbeds to prevent the foot from collapsing and B we would struggle to get the ski onto or off of the edge throughout the turn

and if we wanted to open up another great big can of worms we could add the changing factors dependant on core stability of the athlete in particular gluteal strength in the deep gluteal muscles and piriformis Little Angel

Its all gone piriformis. As they say.

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As ever, I'm late to the table and I still oweskimottaret an explanation of heel steering (of which I'm far too a practised proponent).. But what I see in this thread is the perennial problem of trying to isolate one part of a dynamic movement as being the cause/fault/solution to a skiing affect.. It's just not possible without observation and feedback. There are far too many pro and counter whole body movements that are part of the ski/board experience and as someone who explores the outer limits of that experience I'm saying 'don't fix the fever and leave the infection'. Look to the balance of the complete machine when advising a movement...When you move a pelvis, what happens to the rest of the body...it all has an effect on the ski/snow interface.

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Masque, Sense! Very Happy

Masque, Re:

easiski,

You know it makes sense.

I've just been updated on L4 Development in Hintertux. The whole theme for the week was rotational separation. Gone is the platform at the start of the turn. Gone is the edict to stay square. Shorts allow a large amount of leg and foot rotation above the fall line with grip and carve through clean at the end. This is the reverse of the requirement the last time I was assessed.
Longs allow "Schmeer" to Set. i.e. a large sideslip above the fall-line with a racing set in the fall line.
Staying square may be strong, but it is difficult to get an exit from the old turn.
Executive summary? "Square is not the recommended posture for those seeking to achieve L4 Technical" Happy

Technical "How To":-
There are now just two parts to the turn: The "Body Phase" where you "Send" the skis off on their old trajectory at the end of the turn. Now Forget the legs, edges everything but the body. You throw the body over and inside the skis, down the hill with no edge grip or platform. Then other phase is the "Ski" phase. The ski's edges now connect and load up passively and as the skis load up with pressure, you counter and allow rotational separation to happen at the top of the femurs.
The feeling is of two trampolines. One each side. You grip in an impulse in the fall-line. The turn shape asked for is no longer "Round" but much more apexed. Like a Z Turn (parabolic shape).
The feeling is the outside leg's ankle scraping in the snow, and the outside calf rubbing against the inside ski.
Self-Check is: As you pass the centre-line between the two arcs, look right down it and then inside it. This simple movement sets up rotational separation.
There is more to it if anyone is interested.
SkiPresto May 2014

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Very similar information as to what I was given for my Level 3 Tech training in November, except where you say "

'Longs allow "Schmeer" to Set. i.e. a large sideslip above the fall-line with a racing set in the fall line"

Might be that this information was incorrectly interpreted as longs allow no sideslip at all and you still need to carve two clear lines at all times.

However, if you replace the word 'Longs' with 'Shorts' above, then I would agree that is the same information as I was given and what was probably meant.

A snowHead

Touchguru, this is a concession for slope and snow conditions which would be dangerously fast skied clean on gs skis. Essentially a stivot, and we still need to be clean from fall line or above. Edit: on most runs we'll still aiming for clean all the way.

Dave (Presto), rotational separation isn't 100% at the femur/hip joint, especially in longs. Some is at the waist, and the direction you look out the turn contributes also, in my understanding.

A snowHead

SkiPresto, hmmm... not my experience this season, I did the development course and yes some work on rotational separation and stivot entries to control speed and line without dumping speed was worked on during high speed dangerous icy black runs but not as a be all end all "new way" of skiing. Who relayed this to you? "down the hill with no edge grip or platform" with respect you misunderstood, that is not, nor can be performance skiing. It could have been a stivot drill as touchguru on stiff red gradients NO smeering allowed and clean carves with progressive set up as per a non tactical GS turn. Dangerous high speed steep black terrain , demonstrate that you can control speed and line by pivoting the ski and smeering the turn entry yes

"gone is the platform at the start of the turn" nonsense... sorry but whoever told you that will fail the tech next week. Tell em to pack up and go home....

No one would say square all the time for high performance skiing, square to the line of momentum yes...

some of the other stuff you mention such as two trampolines and impulse is more in line with current thinking and bending the ski and creating impulse at or above the fall line is my experience of what they are looking for. Ski like an athlete not an instructor, create high degree of ski performance, not manage pressure..

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balernoStu, you in Tux ? (if so good luck on it Matey) snowHead

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skimottaret, yes and thanks, any luck going is helpful! Currently sitting out the w/e to save myself for Mon.

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After all it is free

balernoStu, rest up and manage your energy levels over the week, by wednesday night you will be very tired but th fr are a lot easier on the body. Give it 100% monday and dont hold back, get yourself into contention and ease off on tues and weds...

Balernostu. (et al) That's what I was working on for the last 8 years! separation above the hips. But we are picking up new approaches from guys who have returned from Canada and from last season in Aus.
The focus there was to keep the jacket zipper straight - not corkscrewed. Twisting the spine isn't very safe and not strong.
The Body-Ski-Body model is from Canada. The old turn ends on "Ski" where you send the skis away laterally- and then you dump that and go to pure "Body". Get the body down the hill towards the centre line and don't worry about the platform. The legs and skis sort themselves out and when they grip and power up- then you get countered by using rotational separation and then angulation. The feeling is that the inside leg needs to flex to less than 90 Degrees.
No stepping up on to top ski. If you do that there's no easy escape down the line unless you go up and over.
For the doubters.. I was brought up to get that big platform and try to carve two clean lines in the shorts from the top of the turn. BASI trainers now saying that's impossible on L4 terrain.
Previously, you'd fail for ski rotation at top of turn. Now, it's a feature.
It's fascinating stuff. If any of you are in Hintertux this week let's discuss and try it out.
SkiPresto

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SkiMottaret (Hi)
"Whoever told you that will fail..."
I've been working with a trainer all last week. The message was that the theory has been too simplistic. "Dogma" was the word used.
Most of us are using 17m to 25m radius skis and we are no longer being asked to clean-carve two lines even at the fall line.
They are looking for "Grip" where the momentum of the ski is tail-follows-tip from the fall-line.
SP

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"BalernoStu" I've just worked out it's You! Good luck next week!
(edit)
(Stu and I were in the same group last week and worked on the same things)
Yes, I found the line of vision thing to be simple and effective in allowing release of the old turn by setting up rotational separation.
Other "how to" points: When the "Body" phase ends above the fall line, the skis grip and load-up. In and after the fall line you simply balance against the outside ski (99% according to the trainer so *two* clean lines are not expected), Progressively removing the inner support foot, stance hipwidth, but long in the vertical separation (in line with the body inclination). Feel a "Heavy Hip" in and after the fall line as the power gets released when you "send" the skis.
There is no active addition of pressure from the leg.
If you are going for it, there is a simple Newtonian F=mv^2/r going on where force increases by the square of the velocity and increases also by the reciprocal of r where r is the instantaneous turn radius. In other words - pressing harder isn't necessary to bend the ski. All you need to do is stand on the middle of the ski in a tightening arc as you increase edge lean angle.
On the rotational separation we were developing a distinct "Vissage" (Joubert's word meaning "winding-up-and-releasing-a-coiled-spring-in-the-core")
This is what enables the "Body" phase and allows you "get rid of" the skis and concentrate on getting inclined at the top of the turn.
Then, even before we get grip on the new outside ski, we can "get rid of" the inside ski by progressively shortening the inside leg.
It really works, and I don't even mind being fed "dogma" for the last 10 years.
If you don't do the "vissge" then you have to take action to prevent "Gumping" (over-rotating) shoulder, arm, hand, hip - because that's what easily happens when you keep skis, knees, hips all square through the turn after the fall-line.
(SkiPresto May 2014)

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balernoStu, good luck this week.

You know it makes sense.

My understanding of what they have moved to for shorts and longs is (in phases of the turn for simplicities sake)

First 1/3 (Body Phase)

Inclination that gets your skis onto their new edges by moving laterally across the skis with minimal/no upward movement and creates a new long outside leg.

2nd 1/3 (Power/Impulse/Drive phase)

You generate power from the fall line where your outside leg is also at it's longest.

Final 1/3 (Light phase)

Where you become light on the skis as you have set them in the fall line for their trajectory and the tails follow the tips.

In shorts - they were allowing rotation above the fall line and grip from the fall line. They wanted to see your skis move across the hill more than they slid down the fall line in the final 2/3rds of the turn.

In longs - two clean lines with no rotation (As per balernoStu above though, for specific conditions I can see that they may allow a stivot to get the skis engaged in specific circumstances, but that the objective is to carve as cleanly as possible through all phases of the turn in this strand)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Touchguru & Rob@rar That's in line with my understanding too. Except that at the top of the long and short turns, as there is no platform till later in the arc, there won't be clean lines, and then in the belly of the turn, 99% of the force is on the outside ski - so again - no two clean lines.
If you make a platform on the top ski, stand on it like we were trained to, you have to go "up and over".
In the "Body" phase, the Body leads the skis down the line, leaving skis to passively rotate whilst light and go round the long route, whilst the body com cuts inside.
The terminology here is from Canadian system.
Another thing we worked on was going back to what I remember from Old School and working the ski from shovel-through the mid - to the tails.
We practiced Longs "Schmeer-to-set" where the tails fly up above the fall-line.

A snowHead

rob@rar, SkiPresto, Touchguru, thanks guys, quite daunting to try and pass, but either way it's been a fab training trip so far.

Best also to SkiPresto, you're a tough one!

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SkiPresto, was this in the BASI L4 perf week or general GS training? A couple things... On the Tech I sat virtually everyone was on 18-21 M rad skis, one guy passed on Magnums (he is very light) and was borderline on longs. Nobody was on Full GS skis over 21 M. Who was your Trainer (Jimmy?)

on Performance shorts i agree that they are looking for the Zipper straight idea and along with level shoulders they were very critical of this and you had to be perfectly still upper body with no banking or rotation allowed. You must also develop impulse at or above the fall line and the trampoline effect you mention. also agree with the vissage (i would term it anticipation) using tension in your core to load the outer ski early and I also agree they were looking for a clear release phase and not "grinding" the belly of the turn. I think we are saying the same thing in SL or Short Radius turns.

I disagree on your thoughts on Longs.
On Longs when we were on Black gradient icy / firm hardpack on the first day we did some development work on pivot entries (the only development work all week) Rest of the week we were TOLD to do pivot entries to demonstrate that we had the skill base but on feee runs we were told to make clean carves unless you felt unsafe then use a pivot entry. Those who used pivot entries all failed. When we had a few big crashes and a couple of busted thumbs we moved to stiff red run terrain for longs and then no pivots. Not sure this constitutes new exam criteria of not developing a platform. To contradict you my trainer said that most are failing longs as they over project and over incline into the turn and get on the inside, not being patient enough in the setup and load phase.

Are you sitting the Tech with Stu? If so bon chance as well matey !!

Stu you will come on either way it goes and hope to see you at ADH this year Wink

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SkiPresto, I'm,pretty sure in longs we've still to put down 2 clean lines when possible. Some of the drills are to make us more aware of the inputs we need to be working on to achieve this, and some were to deal with the stivot. All IMHO.

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skimottaret, around half the group on a Rossi 9gs, r18-21m. I ditched the Pursuits after day 2 wink

One guy is on head gs rd, which will be r>23m, but he's also a strong 6'3" on a 176.

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Hi SkiMottaret
It was L4 training at Hintertux. Not With Jimmy. (Was Rup).
Doing the L4 with Stu. However, it will be mainly a dev week for me as the bumps are currently beyond me, I am disappointed to report.
(Stu pretty strong in the ruts and moguls).
I double-checked with both trainers about requirement both were present (Gi too) at my post-course debrief.
We'll obviously need to reset a bit to ensure we understand what's required to pass. At L4, you need to deliver what's asked for.
"Belly" of the turn for me is in the fall line. Yes, grinding out is hard work and not good.
We weren't constrained on level shoulders. You can't incline and keep shoulders horizontal.
If we're asked for railtracks it'll be on easy terrain. The consensus was that not even world cuppers could leave two railtracks on longs on the L4 Black slope.
SP

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snap on the bumps wink

when i said belly i meant after the falline, lots of people were not releasing and hanging onto the turn and over pressuring the ski with the CoM being forced back up the hill.... Interesting on the level shoulders , I got gigged for that on shorts, agreed on longs when you are inclining.

balernoStu, I was on Rossi 9GS Ti and a good ski imv. Others on Ispeeds, Doberman GS R EVO EDT, Stockli Laser SX and a couple on Dynastar Course Ti.. The pursuits are too soft for a man of your calibre wink

RIP IT UP BOYS !! (say hello to Christel for me)

After all it is free

Hi SkiMottaret:Well that would be putting the belly of the turn down the hill instead of across the hill.
Following the skis is what happens if you try to stay square and can't then release because the force has built up to unmanageable levels.
On the falling inside on longs, if you remove the inside support foot, then the pressure must go to the outside ski. If the inside ski is too wide on the stance, then falling inside can happen - because the weight falls on it and that subtracts from outside ski. We've been hipwidth on stance - no more.

HI Pam w: Well they're better Gunga Dins than I am, then Happy

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skimottaret, any tips on upping the pace mid-week, when one's legs are already shot?

Help!!

To counter or not to counter? That is the question.

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