 Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
Plenty of people just potter along at 30 on A roads
|
Well I don't, though it's just as well I was only doing 30 when I hit that cow, or I'd have been a gonna too. The limit was 40, but as it turned out even 30 was too fast!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
rjs, Fair do's. I suspect that they are not representative. My wife and I ended up on the Christmas karting 'do' for a local driving school franchise and it wasn't pretty. She beat them all and we never got an invite back 
johnnyh,
| Quote: |
| But as an analogy surely car control at the level of race track driving is not as important as real world driving? |
pam w,
| Quote: |
| I'm sure that's right, but I guess most learner drivers, just starting, not passed their test, would not be capable of doing more focussed training on car control at that stage |
I'd argue that having that sort of experience gives you more margin for the unexpected in the 'real world', and its unusual for drivers to seek ongoing training after passing (the pass plus scheme excepted).
A morning as pam w did on a skid pan would be pretty useful for most, and not expensive compared to the cost of the lessons required for a test 'pass' at the moment. Better than learning as you go on the road.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
johnnyh, Ronald, you're not wrong - what I was trying to say is, it's really difficult to discuss teaching methods online. I spend a lot of time with other instructors discussing how to address certain issues. What I meant with mechanics is without a solid understanding of root causes and strong diagnosis skills it's really difficult to address the teaching to the correct element. If you can break down the element causing the issue to a direct fault, then teaching to that fault is usually quite simple - essentially, you build a solution to that fault and address it, and the more accurately you can address the fault, the simpler the base of the thing you're teaching is, so it's more accurate for getting results. If it doesn't work, you can try a different tack with the same focus (aka having a "toolbox" of drills/excercises). Phrasing, persona and generall expressing yourself well is something that has to develop naturally too, and specific teaching situations are pretty hard to model to discuss/analyse.
My view on being a good skier vs being a good teacher is that being a good teacher is leagues more important, but "if you can't do, teach" doesnt apply here. You can't be instruct to a level you can't attain and demo to a level equal or higher than desired - that's where coaching comes in IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
DaveC, I agree entirely. And I really do see that as an instructor you pretty much only have yourself and your own ability to showcase what needs to be done. If you teach English you can read Shakespear and teach it but you don't have to have written anything as original as Macbeth yourself. With teaching skiing you're not able to point to someone else and say do it like them (when you're on the mountain). So I do completely understand the need to be able to show perfect form and also be able to diagnose faults and address issues.
Is the "toolbox" universal or do individual instructors have their own drills/excercises? I would imagine there is a limit to what you can do to mix things up (excepting the usual one ski, poles under arms, no poles,etc. etc.) given only two skis, two poles and a piste. Does anyone ever come up with anything really innovative in terms of the toolbox?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
johnnyh, basically as you develop as a teacher (imo, obviously), you start with a few drills for broad issues, and can diversify them to pinpoint stuff, and pick up more specific ones. I tend to just make up random stuff that addresses the situation (and for kids, turn it into some kind of game too), and if it doesn't work, modify. Drills and excercises only really start to stall a bit with really high end skiers, but there're always ways to push the envelope. One of the guys that coaches me, that trained most of the CSIA 4's in Fernie, tends to default to "OK, now do it faster".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
johnnyh, I agree with what DaveC, has just said with regard to the toolbox. Basically, when students are going through their exams they are taught specific exercises for specific problems and pop those in their toolbox. These 'prescribed' exercises are fairly universal throughout the world as far as I can see. However with experience the toolbox gets fuller and fuller, because you see other instructors doing a certain exercise, you try it, and you pop it in there. Sometimes particular exercises will stay in the toolbox for years before you dust them off again for a particular student. Some of the exercises we did in the bad old days are still usefull from time to time and so on. As with DaveC, I frequently make up exercises on the spot to help a particular student.
Having said all that, in the end, it really doesn't matter what you say as long as it produces the desired result! OTOH, I do find that many instructors have a tendency to treat the symptom and not the cause in a lot of cases.  Identifying the underlying cause of a problem is the most important thing.
WRT expertise; most competent skiers would have the talent to get to the middle ranks of instructor, but not many will have the talent to get to the top level. In addition to talent it requires a huge amount of hard work too. This is the same whatever country you go to. A very high level of skiing is absolutely essential in order to be able not just to demonstrate well every time, but to be able to lead and look behind you! You have to be able to pretty much do it all. Eurotest is perhaps a bit more difficult than it needs to be, (but I agree with it's inclusion as it is a proper guide to technical albility) and personally I feel there should be some age allowance - but you always have to work within the existing system.
Many years ago I did most of my driving instructors courses, and I was very impressed with the technical information available compared to that of BASI.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
easiski, The nice thing about the Eurotest is the fact that it's 'measured' - you get the time and that's that. Quite unlike the rest of the training. I'd agree that an age allowance would be fairer for those who started skiing later in life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
david@mediacopy, Yes - I know 2 people who have passed it at over 40, but it's been very hard for them to do the training required at that age. John Nelson passed at 47, so it's not impossible, but he now has injury problems which are hampering his efforts to finish off his ISTD as he can't stay 'sound' enough for a full course. I think he's now over 50. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What kind of age allowance would you expect ? I see people at Masters races who would still pass the Eurotest in their 60s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
rjs, yes but how would they fare against much younger people in a non-masters race? I think the analogy to make is how speed deteriorates with age, which is physical rathe than technical.
I'm sure good Masters racers would pass the Eurotest easily, but most of them have been racing for years. How would those without a racing background who only started training in their late 30s or 40s fare? Why should their chances of reaching the top level be very small, just because they only decided on a career path in ski teaching later in life?
I wouldn't be surprised if the current test as it stands is in contradiction of age discrimination laws, ski teaching doesn't have an exemption from those as far as I'maware. It would be interesting to see someone challenge it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
beanie1, It doesn't matter how they would do against kids, I was comparing the fastest over 60s with people that I knew had recently passed the Eurotest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
davidof, does that make you an IT contractor? I'd like to just clarify either way that I'm only a 23 year old ex-IT contractor 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
davidof, yes but fire fighting does have an exemption from age discrimination laws.
I think the Eurotest is relevant - but it can still be relevant and a high test of someone's technical ability, whilst giving an allowance for age.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
davidof, Yes and I agree with beanie1, don't know about firefighting though. Ask Richard E. As you know I am a fan of the idea of the Eurotest, but I do think they could lower the bar a teeny bit without letting in the rif raf! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Mike Pow wrote: |
With the advancement in ski technology, the opening up of more and more controlled off-piste terrain in resorts around the world, and the desire for clients to ski that terrain it could be argued that a timed run in off-piste terrain in mixed snow conditions is more relevant than the Eurotest. |
I'd agree.
Not going to happen though is it? How do they standardise let alone how does a whole industry arise around training for it - heaven forbid people might be able to prepare for that on their own (not needing access to race courses etc)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
fatbob, 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, very difficult to standardise.
During my PSIA Level 3 training at Keystone, Colorado two mandatory components were:
a timed slalom run on a NASTAR course. The standard required was very achievable with no previous racing or race training experience. And I suspect well below the standard in the Eurotest.
and:
a graded and timed off-piste run in black terrain, which on this particular day and course had knee deep powder, crud, bumps and trees.
Nobody failed the slalom, at least half failed the off-piste run.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Pow, The old French speed test used to require a timed run in variable conditions as well as the slalom run.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Thanks for that info. They should consider bringing it back IMHO
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| DaveC wrote: |
| I'd like to just clarify either way that I'm only a 23 year old ex-IT contractor |
Well 23 is pretty young, you should be doing what you want at that age (well apart from sponging off the social that is).
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| fatbob wrote: |
Not going to happen though is it? How do they standardise let alone how does a whole industry arise around training for it - heaven forbid people might be able to prepare for that on their own (not needing access to race courses etc) |
Kind of what the guides and piste patrollers have to do (at least for the French exams). They are judge on style as well as speed.
Actually for French instructors you could include such useful skills as chatting up impresionable young women for younger instructors and pissing out of gondola / drag lifts for the elderly gents (that will keep the women out too !)
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Mike Pow, whats the point of a timed race course that doesnt require any race training at all and everyone passes first time, sounds way too easy and a waste of everyones time. dont get me wrong i am not advocating a stupidly high standard that we have over here for the eurotest which is just a barrier to entry to keep salaries up but unless it is an actual test of technique, why bother with it?
i also dont see the point of straight lining and thrashing down some off piste to get a time in those conditions, graded should be enough if you already have a separate timed component on a race course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Mike Pow, whats the point of a timed race course that doesnt require any race training at all and everyone passes first time, sounds way too easy and a waste of everyones time. dont get me wrong i am not advocating a stupidly high standard that we have over here for the eurotest which is just a barrier to entry to keep salaries up but unless it is an actual test of technique, why bother with it? |
Sorry if that was ambiguous.
The PSIA timed slalom does require practice and not everyone passes first time. But with the proper technique and hard work the standard can be achieved by those with no previous race training. Which doesn't appear to be the case with the Eurotest which is unattainable for the majority.
| Quote: |
| i also dont see the point of straight lining and thrashing down some off piste to get a time in those conditions, graded should be enough if you already have a separate timed component on a race course. |
I agree. In the PSIA programme time is secondary to technique, fluidity and terrain selection.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Mike Pow, It's an interesting idea, especially given the increasing interest in 'freeride' among the general public, and the increasing number of Free-ride competitors and comps.
If you were to take the view that the Eurotest is an exclusion mechanism which guarantees jobs for ex racers, it fit's right in
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Mike Pow, I wouldn't say the eurotest is unattainable by the majority. If you're youngish, fit, skiing full time and have the time and resources to put in the training, I think it's attainable. The people I know who've seriously applied themselves to it have got it in the end.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| beanie1 wrote: |
| Mike Pow, I wouldn't say the eurotest is unattainable by the majority. If you're youngish, fit, skiing full time and have the time and resources to put in the training, I think it's attainable. |
Sounds reasonably exclusionary to non-alpine residents unless they have a trust fund Not that requiring commitment is a bad thing but it seems fairly all or nothing to try to get through as a career changer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I'm happy to play in France, and have no desire to train towards the Eurotest to enable me to work there.
There's too much pow to be skied
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
beanie1, imo exactly right, ISTD is very attainable by anyone youngish and fittish, as long as they commit time/money/mind to it
fatbob, the young ISTDs I've met recently don't have trust funds - they lived frugally and have loans
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Is there anyone on here that has passed it? And aside from allowing you to work in France, has it benefited you / have you used it since?
Is the investment in time and money worth it?
Genuinely interested.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Mike Pow, I actually didn't have to do it, but there are snowheads who have (AlexChapman, Euangone skiing, Dave?) I think you have missed the point - it's not a race. If your technique is good enough and you are able to take a good line you will get the time. If not, you won't. You won't find many of the full time ski teachers here any more though - we've mostly be chased away!
BTW the ISTD technical always includes an off piste descent as well as moguls, and the standard required is very high: fast, agressive and fluid skiing in all conditions, so it is included in the exams. That part of the test is not timed, but you are expected to go FAST. Also don't forget the off piste and high mountain safety module which requires you to ski off piste in many varied conditions. The French have to skin up within a certain time too ....
Most of the ISTDs I know work in ski schools and do their training in the off season weeks or after work. they are hardly rich, and one French girl I know worked all day in the ESF, trained, and worked every evening in a restaurant too. Most full time professional ski teachers are not rich - €25,000 euros was being bandied about recently, but if that has to last a year + buying your gear + travel + accommodation etc. etc. etc. it's not much is it? For people who have lucrative spring/summer/autumn jobs it's good pay though.
If you want the freedom to work anywhere in the world you choose, it's obviously worth it. ESF are desparate for native english speakers BTW!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
beanie1, imo exactly right, ISTD is very attainable by anyone youngish and fittish, as long as they commit time/money/mind to it
|
It is not easy though by any means. The son of a friend passed it after the 3rd attempt and he's skied since he could walk, raced at the local resort (which produced 2 medal winners in the last Olympics) and worked as a ski teacher for a few years at St Sorlin. He trained specifically for the test over 2 summers.
As Easiski says, it keeps the riff-raff out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
davidof, no, it isn't easy, it involves some time, hard work, commitment, and esp fitness/youth and guts. However people who learn to ski on dry slopes and don't get to ski on snow until well into their teens pass it with a only a shortish period of focussed training, so it isn't that difficult either, esp given the fitness/youth/guts bit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| easiski wrote: |
| Mike Pow, I actually didn't have to do it, but there are snowheads who have (AlexChapman, Euangone skiing, Dave?) I think you have missed the point - it's not a race. If your technique is good enough and you are able to take a good line you will get the time. If not, you won't. You won't find many of the full time ski teachers here any more though - we've mostly be chased away! |
My understanding was that some local hot shot skied the course and then the instructors had to complete the course with a time at most 110% of the course setter. Am I way off with that 'knowledge'? If not, that seems a tough ask.
| Quote: |
| BTW the ISTD technical always includes an off piste descent as well as moguls, and the standard required is very high: fast, agressive and fluid skiing in all conditions, so it is included in the exams. That part of the test is not timed, but you are expected to go FAST. Also don't forget the off piste and high mountain safety module which requires you to ski off piste in many varied conditions. The French have to skin up within a certain time too .... |
Good. Seems to be consistent with the US, Canadian, Australian and NZ systems. Except for the skinning bit
| Quote: |
| Most of the ISTDs I know work in ski schools and do their training in the off season weeks or after work. they are hardly rich, and one French girl I know worked all day in the ESF, trained, and worked every evening in a restaurant too. Most full time professional ski teachers are not rich - €25,000 euros was being bandied about recently, but if that has to last a year + buying your gear + travel + accommodation etc. etc. etc. it's not much is it? For people who have lucrative spring/summer/autumn jobs it's good pay though. |
That's what I don't get. There's more money to be made outside of France. I'm not even close to ISTD standard but I don't need to work two jobs to get by.
| Quote: |
| If you want the freedom to work anywhere in the world you choose, it's obviously worth it. ESF are desparate for native english speakers BTW! |
Ironic isn't it. Let's make it as tough as possible to work here, and then end up with a real need for native english speaking instructors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Mike Pow,
| Quote: |
| My understanding was that some local hot shot skied the course and then the instructors had to complete the course with a time at most 110% of the course setter. Am I way off with that 'knowledge'? If not, that seems a tough ask. |
I think it's worse than that. National \ International racers who's times are calculated back to those of the world No1. It's then 118% of that. 115% (?) for ladies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just to add.
You can make a reasonable living teaching skiing outside France. I have only spoken to a few people who live and work (teach) in France, but there seems to be a misconception that the wages in France are higher than other parts of Europe. I don’t think they are, when the much higher cost of living in many French resorts is taking into account.
The ski teaching world doesn’t end in the middle of the Mont Blanc Tunnel. And, outside France, the British ski teaching world extends past the “work for pocket money”, Aosta Valley.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
