 Poster: A snowHead
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barry, you've lost me a bit. What do you think a soft rockered ski is going to do when it hits 3d snow? You make it sound like the rockered parts have no bearing on how the ski performs...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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brian
brian
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horizon, get both eh? I like your style. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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barry, do you find on I-beam type stiff skis that the tips don't naturally seek the surface when you ski at moderate/medium or high speeds? If you do to any extent, then imagine taking the tip and starting it in a decambered position. You can keep all the stiffness, but suddenly it's shape allows it to rise up from the snow and float rather than submarine. There's your basic rocker concept, the less stiff it is the more you can influence the amount of total decamber you can create (including at the tip, which may or may not be slightly softer than the body of the ski). This reduces the running length on 2d, hard snow but usually not to much of an extent, and that's another reason why going longer with rocker isn't the same as a longer standard ski. The full running length does engage usually as you tip the ski (some exceptions), and as soon as it's in 3d snow you get the full length of the ski.
Rockered skis that aren't quite so stiff, and often tail rockered or hybridised type shapes (see the S7, Armarda JJ for examples - the 5 point side cut model), have other benefits, mainly how easily they release and pivot, and how they deal with conditions that aren't ideal for regular style skis (mank, wet, crust).
Other big development to be aware of lately is that stiff no longer has any relation to heavy, damp planks. You can have stiff and responsive with the generation of carbon fibre based skis (mainly from DPS and PM Gear, that I can think of.), or stiff damp and light with the newer constructions from most mainstreams.
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DaveC, good effort mate, the clouds are parting somewhat 
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| brian wrote: |
| BobinCH, no I haven't tried them, nor am I likely to get the chance too, unfortunately. The 2010 Katana was a redesign with Voelkl's ELP rocker (as for the new Gotama and the Kuro) though obviously not as pronounced as the Kuro. XXL has no rocker and in fact a considerable normal camber, Katana is basically flat underfoot with a gradual rocker starting a long way back. Whatever I buy I will still be doing a reasonable amount of family piste skiing as well as heading off so this seems like a good compromise. |
Sounds good! The family will need to ski fast to keep up with you!!!
Arno, Horizon, while admittedly conditions were good this season, it wasn't a case of different ski for different day. As I suspect you do we always head off piste and I skied almost exclusively on the Kuros whatever the conditions. A mate bought 2010 Gotamas on the basis of it being a better "1 ski quiver" and I'm pretty sure he regrets not going bigger. Everyone is cynical until they try them...
I haven't skied Lhasa's or similar but DaveC has and he also suggests going full rocker for the off piste ski. While I definitely want to try your DPS 112's I reckon you boys will be impressed with some proper fatties!
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BobinCH, I suggest buying a ski suitable to what you want to do with it I prefer a ski I can get high edge angles with, and I like the sharknose/pintail shape best, so the Kuro isn't really for me - but I think it's a bit naive to say one's better than the other. Can't imagine anyone who went for the Katana or Gotama looking for a versatile ski wishing they were on something like a Kuro, personally... but anyway, I'd actually say these days I'd rather a carbon construction based ski as a top priority, since the swingweight to stiffness is just so much more pleasant.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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BobinCH, well I wanted to try the Kuros (and the Redeemers, and the Lhasas) while I was over there...but did anyone want to prove their steeze on my Tankers?
I don't know what the answer is without demoing. Most guides ski on a midfat everywhere, but then again their technical level and stamina are way above ours. The RP has a huge rocker...
We need to do a Chinese downhill from the top on Mont Fort next year
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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horizon, chinese downhill is indeed the only way to resolve this, possibly in appropriate fancy dress:
BobinCH, i do have some old Lotus 120s which are gathering dust a bit TBH, although they are pretty skinny compared to the Kuros. i should resurrect them
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Arno, you do realise that if I outrun you while you're on the RP Pures and I'm on the Hybrids you'll have spent all that extra money for nothing?
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horizon, i will console myself that you would have outrun me by more if i was on hybrids
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brian
brian
Guest
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Arno, reckon you should hold out for Chinese Uphill.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Arno wrote: |
| BobinCH, i do have some old Lotus 120s which are gathering dust a bit TBH, although they are pretty skinny compared to the Kuros. i should resurrect them |
Arno FTW. Most skiers attics consist of old, long straight skis. (Apart from Clarky & Dave C who were too young to have started skiing then). Arno has a pair of DPS Lotus 120s 'gathering dust'.
I've skied skis similar to the Kuro, or maybe not, perhaps they are unique? I'm not a fan of such large tips because of the amount of deflection you get when you are skiing mach II - in ANY condition. Yes, give me rocker, yes give me stiff. I like the surf feeling of the tips, my knees don't like them.
This year will be the first year that I might have to buy some skis  for around 3 years. Looking for something with a Spatula shape so I can avoid the large tip but still have the fatness & rocker. Dunno whether to go for traditional sidecut, in which case I can get the Faction Royales or something like the Moment Donner Party, Armarda ARG, or if I could find them for cheap Lotus 138...
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Poster: A snowHead
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horizon, but guides have to worry about weight for the ups. So a light 100mm ski makes sense for touring/steeps but it isn't half as much fun in the lift served off piste around Verbier/Cham. It isn't about technique or stamina. It's about the feeling!
The problem in April was that you arrived during the best week of the season, not the ideal moment for us to hand over our powder tools!
However, in the interests of providing a definitive Snowheads powder plank review I propose an early season weekend at the scene of April's powderfest. Snow permitting end Nov/start Dec should be feasible. Invitation extended to the other thread contributors offerring something of interest to the test...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If the test is in Austria then I'm sure I can bring some toys to play on
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm pretty tempted to move to Chamonix in April as the Fernie season winds down this year....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Nice choice Dave!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| but guides have to worry about weight for the ups. So a light 100mm ski makes sense for touring/steeps but it isn't half as much fun in the lift served off piste around Verbier/Cham. |
Know at least one guide who ski on S7s... And plenty of them love stiff Dynastars / Movements for lift skiing.
And of course the Coomba (which is a classic guide ski).
It a myth that guides always ski on mid fats.
| Quote: |
| ...100mm isn't half as much fun in the lift served off piste around Verbier/Cham. |
Sadly every day is not a powder day - and typical dump in Europe is about 20cm - 40cm.
Especially around Verbier (Rhone valley is a wine growing region and pretty dry!)
Plus your skiing large vertical descents with variable snow due to the large change in altitude.
Spent a season in Verbier - and only once did I (personally) think that 102mm wasn't wide enough. (2008 was a very good winter)
There is no debate that skis like Pontoon / Megawatt (& probably Kuro ?) are the tools for the job in deep pow or crud.
But they also aren't so easy on moguls, harder snow, or steep slopes - which can be really fun to ski too! 
People get obsessed with width under foot.
But anything above 100mm is going to float.
What they should actually be discussing is ski length (i.e total surface area), tip stiffness and shape ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Nendaz is the place where I can offer accommodation. Chassoure needs to be open so usuallly 1st weekend in Dec
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Haggis_Trap, It is about width - "smile width". I saw the difference in people going from Scott Mission/LP etc to Kuro last season and the difference in their "smile width" was dramatic. You are right that it is also shape. I'm talking about going from conventional to full rocker. You are right that they suck in moguls and on ice - if you like skiing that avoid them. However they are still quite manageable in those conditions. They are fine on steeps unless it is icy. I haven't skied Coombas but I know for sure I had way more fun last season on Kuro's than in 2008/9 on LP's. Except when touring I always took the Kuros and always found snow to enjoy them on, albeit having to navigate moguls/pistes at the bottom. All I say is people who love skiing off piste should try something like the Kuro before writing them off as "skis for Alaska" which almost always cones from people who haven't tried them.
My "quiver" is now Crusair with Dynafit for touring, some rock skis for November or until there is a decent base and Kuros for everything else.
I'd like to try something in the 115mm range with rocker tip/tail but doubt I'd be willing to give up soft snow perf for crud busting ability.
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BobinCH - Would love to try some Kuros, Have no doubts they are alot of fun and very refined.
But I am still to be (personally) convinced I need a ski that size as a daily driver for Europe.
(Total tangent - but the worst ski I ever tried out is the Line Prophet 130. Unskiable flappy cr@p. Proof that 'Phatter' is not always better).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap,I'd like to try something in the 115mm range with rocker tip/tail but doubt I'd be willing to give up soft snow perf for crud busting ability. |
I toured a 186 Rossi S3 last Winter which is kind of soft, and found the tip/tail rocker compensated pretty well for the lack of full-on-pow-ski width for pretty much everything but the biggest dumps and biggest lines.
I also demo-ed Dyna Big Dumps and BD Megawatts with slight tip rocker and thought they were both great point and shoot boards (Big Dumps especially made dropping cliffs soooo easy), but ended up going for slightly narrower Dyna Huge Troubles in the end - 115mm waisted and zero camber, but no rocker, as I found them stiff enough to charge and huck with confidence, plenty of float for anyone but most novice powder skier I reckon, but also that bit more manouverable than both the BDs and Megawatts (I like trees, a lot).
Shame about the slightly gay graphics, but hey ho.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| (Total tangent - but the worst ski I ever tried out is the Line Prophet 130. Unskiable flappy cr@p. Proof that 'Phatter' is not always better). |
I spent two seasons skiing on Prophet 130s. The first season it was my daily driver, it went out nearly everyday - even leaving my beloved Explosives at home. That ski was SO much fun I still smile about it. I was worried it was too floppy but not even straight lining the M25 was I worried, it's torsional stiffness (relative to being such a wide ski) was perfect. Eventually my skiing improvement led to me not skiing on it - it is a little hooky in soft snow and at warp speed the tips could get deflected. So I mounted them with telemark and they had a few outings the second season, eventually I sold them off. I'm gonna through a flag on this play - brilliant, fun ski - that rocked in the moguls!
BobinCh, demo some Faction 3.Zeros with rocker next year, then you will understand versatility and laugh at the idea of compromise.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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what year did you guys ride the 130s, didn't they only add the titanal sheet fairly recently to stiffen them up a bit like the 90s and 100s. I quite fancy some francis bacons if only they did them up to the mid 190ish mark or even the EP pros
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You know it makes sense.
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papasmurf, I skied the first years - green ones. I figure Haggis_Trap skied on the second year, same ski different graphics (Bamboo ones) - if they were Ben's? I haven't followed the progress but I guess that they couldn't really stiffen them until they put the tip rocker in - which I think they did too huh?
Arno, only if they make it with a swallow tip...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FAQ
). Do stiffness become less of a factor on proper rockers, ie i no longer need it proper stiff cos there's feck-all touching the snow to actually be stiff (if ya get my meaning)??? therefore anyold cheap rocker shite is the way ahead?? Q.E.D.
