 Poster: A snowHead
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DaveC, Canadian provincial race coach was one of the guys that had me focus on inside ski edge a lot... Including starting my introduction to ILE.
Have also had similar feedback from at least 4 CSIA guys... but most had some race background(eg grew up racing at Whistler) - I always found the racers had more sound biomechanics and so taught to my disability much better than regular instructors. (If you have to take a random pick from a ski school list). So I tended to grab the racers/coaches to be my instructors. (Most of these also had disabled instructing as second discipline)
If it helps I've had the same focus from 2 staatliche(hmm maybe 3-4 I'm not sure about the last 2 it was a while back), also 1 Italian recently retired WC racer who was a current national team coach, and currently also from Fastman. In fact it is that focus has helped me start to deal with more slalom sized sets in the NASTAR course atm. (helps me get the higher edge angles I want while still carving cleanly)
Check my two instances above of being explicitly told to skate to the outside edge both by canadians - both with extensive race experience and both also instructor trainers. In regular skiing I'd be told to focus on that ski and edge much more often.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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nordicfan, they don't half cover some ground don't they? What I did notice was the double pole push with every step.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DaveC, Comprex, Skating on the flat this morning. Definitely no outside edge involved. Yes, I know what I'm doing.
No outside edge.
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| under a new name wrote: |
DaveC, Comprex, Skating on the flat this morning. Definitely no outside edge involved. Yes, I know what I'm doing.
No outside edge. |
I spent all of last summer improving my inline skating - primarily because doing 8-14 mile street skates around London just plain hurts unless you're an efficient skater.
My "big breakthrough" being able to consistently place the skate on its outside edge and roll it over to the inside edge. The difference in power generated per stride is phenominal.
I've tried applying it to my skiing this year and it makes a huge difference in my opinion when I get it right. Although it's really difficult to get right and I can't do it consistently yet.
I've been skiing with someone on the GB telemark team who has been working on their skating and it's apparently something that the better telemark skiers do when they skate too.
Your mileage may vary.
nordicfan - I'd guess there are two significant other factors at play in your YouTube clip. First of all the edges on nordic skis are far less good and must need a higher edge angle to be effective than could be achieved on the outside edge of the ski. The second factor is probably that you get more advantage by getting as much Klister wax on the snow as possible. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I cup the top of my rt pole in the palm of my hand to push off of. It's then just a timing thing. I used to be a pretty tidy skater, for some reason, things aren't so hot on the Magnums. 
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tried a bit this afternoon, not on the flat (snow far too slow and chopped up and cruddy to be doing flat bits) but on a long gentle downhill on the way home. When going well, had the feeling of setting down on the outside edge (a bit....) and rolling over to the inside ready for the next stride. might be different on the flat - or on slidier snow.
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FlyingStantoni, never thought about skating on the outside edge before but watching comprex's clips of the inline skater was eye opening... not sure it has much value outside of skating on flats but like anything would be a good skill to acquire.... any footage of someone doing this on alpine skis??
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skimottaret, Just about to ask ask the same.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FlyingStantoni, OK, will experiment tomorrow.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| pam w, it contradicts the majority of what I'm trying to get pupils to do though, and after talking to a few other instructors, no-one was particularly comfortable with the idea of balancing on the outside *edge* or encouraging people to do it (not full cert instructors, fwiw). I agree with people not doing as much as they're asked, but for purposes of describing it I'd always mention a flat ski. FastMan's description of skating from inside to inside rings much more true with me - if I'm skating uphill I push inside to inside, and on the flat barely pick my skis off the floor if at all to add momentum. |
I concur with what the majority of the others here have been saying. I'd always been really rubbish at skating, until I went on a race-training week. One day the training lanes were shut so we found a bit of snow on which to practice starts. I was fairly quick straight out of the gate, but the instructor was horrified at how I skated away. I'd never been told previously about skating onto the outside edge of the glide ski, so pushed onto a flat or slightly inside edge. At the time I was not particularly comfortable about balancing on an outside edge (something that soon became clear as being a major hole in my technical armory), but as soon as I tried moving onto that outside edge, so putting the ski down directly under my COM and staying forward balanced, rather than out to the side, the glide immediately felt way more controlled and powerful, and I was way more balanced. I'm still not a great skater, and it's definitely more difficult on wider skis, but I was quitely amused on one long skate out of an off-piste run last week (probably a couple of km); I was following hard on the heels of the guide, who was quite clearly trying to burn me off, but I was quite happily keeping up with him with nice lazy pushes and little poling whereas even he was poling every stride  (and he of course was substantially fitter and stronger than me), but he was only using inside edges. Being able to balance on an outside edge is a very useful skill once you get above a basic low-intermediate level. Maybe your instructor friends need to have a bit of a rethink about this. The problem about doing it uphill is that it takes a huge amount of strength and energy to do so consistently, but is way faster (AIUI, something that was noticed when the nordic guys started skating, rather than using the "classic" style) - so I'm generally just actively herringboning up when it gets more than just a gentle rise.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The high speed race start skating GrahamN was describing uses something called in my neck of the woods the inside/outside/outside step. After stepping off the inside edge for the first step, each following step goes from outside edge - roll - step to new outside edge outside edge. Here's a demonstration of it (see Skating). http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/S.html
If you look closely, you can see the track left behind shows an engagement of the outside edge of the ski I step onto. How high you go onto the outside edge is dictated by how you need to balance power and quickness of step. Different people will benefit from different mixes, depending partly on their muscle size and fiber type (slow/fast twitch).
BTW, that video clip is at 50% of full speed.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FastMan, Cheers for the video. From the posts above I was starting to worry I was missing something, but it's pretty much as I thought.
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FastMan, Yes, I see it, you are definitely working the outside edge and rolling onto the inside edge which then provides the push as you step on the next outside edge, I think?.............
There is def. a method to doing it efficiently I think - its is one thing to be able to manage a few steps with momentum on my side, which I can do, but there seems to be an 'active' methodology to doing it effectively over a larger distance. It doesn't look like something that I could do without practice (maybe a certain amount of fitness comes into play too - it looks a fairly 'active' technique from FastMan's videa, i.e. lots of active skier movements and weight changes coming into play) - I think to begin with you run on the flat bases - I am sure I do and some posting above clearly think they do too, but it does look like something that there is indeed a 'knack' too which is what I suspected when I wrote the OP. Given the number of flat sections that I find every time I ski I think this is a technique well worth having a bash at getting correct - shuffling or herringboning in full ski kit in the sun is hot work and when its done properly the skating seems the best option so far of covering flat ground. I think this has been a v. useful thread 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Megamum wrote: |
FastMan, Yes, I see it, you are definitely working the outside edge and rolling onto the inside edge which then provides the push as you step on the next outside edge, I think?.............
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Good eye, Megamum. Yes, you're seeing it correctly. It's definitely is a valuable skill to learn, and really not as hard as it looks. As you work on your lateral balance skills, doing this will come to feel relatively comfortable. By lateral balance I mean learning to balance and turn on any of your 4 edges. Thousand steps requires the same skill, but it's even tougher, because you actually have to establish a maintain balance on that outside edge for a moment. In this version of skating you step on the outside edge, but then just tip right off it back to a flat ski.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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david@mediacopy, I'm glad it helped. We have so much footage after filming for the DVDs, there's not many things I can't come up with a clip for. Video definitely says some things more clearly than keyboard strokes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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OK, lots of interesting chat - pretty helpful in understanding what's going on. Spent today skating a lot - apparently I glide on a reasonably flat ski, but weight on the gliding foot is pretty heavily biased towards the outside of the foot so it's on the outside edge. Fastman's video was super helpful in seeing the concept in action - and the inline skating vids helped realise why it's efficient. In a racing context the point of an efficient skate start makes sense - it's just telling intermediate/advanced holiday skiers to "skate on the outside edge" suprised me, and still seems like information overload for a student not looking at very high end skiing. Strange thing to conciously aim for, but will keep playing with it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DaveC, It's something I will def. try out when I'm next in a skating situation. I am not overly fit and when it comes to slogging along inefficiently on the flat, by whatever means I can and sweating cobs and being knackered before I reach the lift and start to ski and then seeing all the 'pros' nipping past me without a care I began to think well perhaps there is something I am missing. This outside edge thing is maybe it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I'd guess there are two significant other factors at play in your YouTube clip. First of all the edges on nordic skis are far less good and must need a higher edge angle to be effective than could be achieved on the outside edge of the ski. The second factor is probably that you get more advantage by getting as much Klister wax on the snow as possible.
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They are on skate skis - the skis are waxed full length with glide wax. Try skating with klister and you'd faceplant every second step as the klister grabbed the snow. Grip wax or klister is only used on skis for classic (unless your Nortug doing a classic sprint when you double pole the whole sprint without any gripwax!)
As some one who does both downhill on telekit and xc on track skis plus I skate all summer on rollers I find skating on dh skis easier than skating on xc kit mostly because the dh skis are so wide there are no balance problems. The big problem with skating on dh kit is pole length. Even with adjustable poles extended to the full extent of 145ish cms they are still too short for decent skating, I normally skate with 160cm poles. Short poles means less power through the poles and or a less upright stance.
If I'm skating on xc kit or rollers i aim to put the ski down flat, keep it flat for as long as possible for the glide and then roll it onto its inside edge to push off, but I'm a crap skater on xc kit, better on rollers.
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FastMan, OK, yes, it's a micro, micro outside edge. possibly best described as having a very straight "on" skate". Watched a few aspirant ESF moniteurs skating around - little evidence of it generally.
Interesting...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skating on dh skis easier than skating on xc kit mostly because the dh skis are so wide there are no balance problems.
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I can skate, sort of, on DH skis but my two weeks of tuition on xc skis have all been "classic" and I'm way, way, off the skill (or fitness) level needed to skate on xc skis.
I did see one pisteur today, skating without poles, definitely a touch of outside edge, pretty cool dude. I just splodged around in the clag.
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pam w,
If you can skate on dh skis you should be able to skate on xc skis. Fitness may be a problem though. I can skate on rollerskis for 20km (and do it in under an hour on a good day) yet I find just 1km skating on snow hard if its at all uphill. Some of it may just be lack of practice. I can get out on rollers regularly, but getting out on the skate skis is harder as the local trails are not often in condition that is good for skating. I usually just classic. If your out on classic skis have a go at skating on them. Not as easy as skate skis (as classic skis are longer and the grip wax or fishscales can get in the way) and if your on hire classic boots they may have poor ankle support, but wort giving it a go for short spells.
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I find just 1km skating on snow hard if its at all uphill.
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50 metres uphill is more than enough for me.  I'd like to have another go at XC - you pointed me at some more supportive boots a while ago. Mine are super comfy but with negligible ankle support - nothing like as much as my very ordinary walking boots. Might join a group lesson before the end of the season
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Mine are super comfy but with negligible ankle support - nothing like as much as my very ordinary walking boots.
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That will make skating much harder - I use pursuit boots for both classic and skating mostly because I do a lot of rollerskiing and good ankle support is a must on rollerskis. Well worth giving the skating a go. Its much easier on well prepared xc trails.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
That will make skating much harder
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I didn't try skating, but I did find the snowplough very hard, and the "step turning" (can't remember the proper term, and it was all in French anyway - les pas tournant? It was a while ago).
Why do people wear those very skinny light boots if they're much more difficult? I do wonder why the shop where we bought them didn't direct us to the more supportive shoes. I think I'm going to troc mine.
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| Dave Horsley wrote: |
If you can skate on dh skis you should be able to skate on xc skis. Fitness may be a problem though. I can skate on rollerskis for 20km (and do it in under an hour on a good day) yet I find just 1km skating on snow hard if its at all uphill. Some of it may just be lack of practice. |
And quite a fair bit of it may be the extra length of the skis, especially in divergent set-down situations such as going uphill?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Dave Horsley, I agree with all of that. If your centre of gravity is over the glide ski you will not be edging it, you will just stand on it as long as you feel like before doing the next skate. If you are doing a very slow tempo (hard push and long glide) then it is OK to pole on every step (or any interval that suits you - though always as you are pushing with the ski, of course). I always use a slightly longer pole than most people since I like skiing steeper slopes and it makes pole planting easier in that case.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
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That will make skating much harder
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I didn't try skating, but I did find the snowplough very hard, and the "step turning" (can't remember the proper term, and it was all in French anyway - les pas tournant? It was a while ago).
Why do people wear those very skinny light boots if they're much more difficult? I do wonder why the shop where we bought them didn't direct us to the more supportive shoes. I think I'm going to troc mine. |
Why?
No reason except those are cheaper. Much the same way if you go hire alpine boots, you're going to get some generic ones until you know better!
Reality being, a "supportive" (hard plastic shell) boot will likely be a bit harder to fit to the varying shape of feet of the population, compare to a soft boot you just laced up in varying tightness. So if I were running a hire shop that caters to occasional x-c skier who're just taking a 1-day break from their alpine vacation, I'd stock 1-2 brand of soft boots instead of 5 different brand of hard (and supportive) boots in order to fit everyone.
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| pam w wrote: |
Why do people wear those very skinny light boots if they're much more difficult? I do wonder why the shop where we bought them didn't direct us to the more supportive shoes. I think I'm going to troc mine. |
Because the skinny light boots are -cheap- and -light- and require less rsing about with boot fit than the supportive ones.
You really don't need anything higher than ankle height if you're staying in prepared tracks.
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You know it makes sense.
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You really don't need anything higher than ankle height if you're staying in prepared tracks.
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I didn't have much problem in the tracks - the problem was on sections which were too steep (downhill) for the tracks, where we had to snowplough. I think the XC area here is rather more challenging than in some places, where it's just a sort of flat loipe around on the valley floor. Learning to do either the "half snow plough" (with one foot in the track, the other out and ploughing) or the full snowplough, started the first day, because slowing down was essential for self preservation. I was OK on the half one, but useless once completely out of the tracks.
I'm blaming the boots, but it was probably just my ineptitude. I have had two whole weeks of lessons, so it's serial ineptitude. I'm now not very enthusiastic about trying again, but maybe with different boots........
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think it may have been the skis at least in part. Edgeless snowplows are a beotch unless the snow is really sun-soft, because there is no real feedback of when you're doing it right.
Salomon, for one, now sell 3/4 length edged XC skis in beginner flexes. 3/4 edge skis are not new but these have edges at tip and tail instead of in the middle like other designs. These snowplow /really/ well with low boots, and you can still get decent kick + glide.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, if the snow is icy or re-frozen, edge-less x-c skis aren't much good at handling it, supportive boots or not. That may simply be the cause of your problem and you just have to hope for a better day next time out.
If you're buying your own kit, go for a better boot. It can only help.
That said, for people who cross over from alpine skiing, there's likely an over-reliance on boots for ski control. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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comprex, abc, Dave Horsley, I am finding this fascinating and am starting another thread rather than hijack this one. I'm very grateful for your advice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I skate like a demented duck.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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laundryman, your weight's too far back
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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laundryman, as designed by Frankenstein?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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under a new name, sounds all too plausible - I'll bear that in mind.
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FAQ
