 Poster: A snowHead
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On Wednesday they had bib numbers going up to 136 or 138. It was a seething horde at the lifts! They had excusive use of the right lift and about a third made a mass dash for the left lift. They tried to ignore the senior member of staff tellling them in no uncertain terms that they were not going to get up that lift, we could hear him from the top of the slope, I think those orange helmets have sound deadening because the kids didn't seem to be able to hear anything! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As one of those who uses Hemel for performance development, there is another perspective to this. I'm quite keen on getting space for developing the skills I need in a race situation, and am quite willing to wait for the slope to clear so I can make my run without endangering anyone else. I have on occasion therefore waited for maybe a full five minutes for a clearing to appear in the slope. However it does then get very galling when the slope is nearly clear and I'm clearly getting ready to launch down the slope, and someone jumps straight onto the slope in front of me and starts snowploughing slowly down. If they could have waited another 10 seconds I'd have been on may way, and probably have finished my run before they'd got to their first turn. I'm in no way saying they have no right to be on the slope, quite the contrary, but if they want courtesy from me, then surely I should be able to expect the same from them. In one particular case I'd waited for well over 5 minutes for a mogul line to clear, with probably about a dozen people passing me and then maybe making it half way down before falling over. I then started just as someone else came off the lift and pitched in front of me - causing me to make an unplanned left turn as evasive action (quite rightly), and then find a slowish snowplougher coming from the main body of the slope onto the mogul run straight in front of me. I then made a sharp right to avoid them (which I did), but he fell over as I passed him - and then I got the bollocking from slope patrol for skiing too close and causing him to fall .
It's all very well saying steer clear of slower skiers, and I'm happy to do so, but there needs to be give and take. The faster skiers amongst us are not going to be spending long getting down the slope, so give us a turn. Maybe it sounds a bit too regimented, but some management of skiers at the top of the slope could be useful, parcelling groups of faster skiers together and then groups of slower so everyone gets a fair crack of the whip. Otherwise they could fence off a section for fast skiing only (like lengths lanes at a swinning pool), although that would not be ideal as it restricts the terrain available for both fast and slow skiers alike. If we can't ski fast, then there's no point in some of us being there in the first place.
Last Saturday it was a bit manic from 5-6:30, and I had to abort several runs after only a couple of turns, but then it cleared off pretty well and 7-8:30 there were relatively few people there - even given that we only had half the slope for the general public - so we could get both slow and fast skiers having fair cracks. But I also nearly had a serious accident as a Slope Patrol boarder started out from the netting half way down the slope straight into my path without a single glance back up the hill.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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GrahamN, There's no rule says that you have to be considerate to faster skiers, only a rule that says you should allow enough space to pass the slower skier. Just like there's no rule says you have to allow other cars out, queue in a single lane, wait for each other at roundabouts etc, and only rules that determine who has right of way and where you can drive your car. In other words the slower skiers aren't asking for a courtesy in your not buzzing them, as you are in asking them to wait to let you go first. That said I know what you mean, having not infrequently been in the same position myself. If the slope isn't mega busy, other users will often have noticed a particularly fast skier and may well offer for you to go first or palpably hang fire for a second or two to give you a chance to go first esp if you look in their direction, but few will wait any longer for you unless you request them to directly, many are oblivious and others really don't give a hoot and will go when they like, as is their right. My primary solution is simply to go when the slope is quieter, when I'll have more space and better snow anyway.
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Getting back to the subject of the SNOW QUALITY, the texture this wednesday evening was definetly better. Still too many moguls, but I think it means someone is listening, which can only be good
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, but that's my whole point - the rules are inadequate for a closed environment. The FIS code is developed for the open mountain. If a given piste is too busy, then I (or whoever) will find somewhere else to ski. In a snowdome, there is nowhere else to go. We have a lot of comments here about race clubs "taking over" the slope - and this is a problem born out of the success of the slope. Fine, there is no excuse for bad behaviour in the lift queue or at the top or bottom of the slope, but relying on the FIS code is manifestly inadequate to provide a good experience for either group of people in a restricted environment: the slower skiers are justifiably unhappy about getting buzzed, and the faster skiers are equally justifiably frustrated at not getting slope space to complete drills etc.. So some additional structure needs to be in place to allow coexistence of both groups - and being a closed environment that could be done by the slope management. The adults sessions with Impulse came to an end last year as a direct consequence of the slope putting freestyle furniture out down both sides of the slope on Thursday evenings, as the remaining space was then quite inadequate to allow high performance skiing to coexist with more general recreational (I was at the last session that did take place, and from that experience decided to bin further attendances; Flying Stantoni was at the session the following week that was cancelled when it became painfully clear how little space would be available). To say go at other times is not a useful suggestion for those of us that work regular office hours and have to travel some distance to the slope.
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| skidmarks wrote: |
| Getting back to the subject of the SNOW QUALITY, the texture this wednesday evening was definetly better. Still too many moguls, but I think it means someone is listening, which can only be good |
You're mistaken in thinking that things are being done differently in relation to snow quality. The snow is getting better and will continue to improve because it's quieter and the snow is being worked less. Try after Easter and it should be near perfect.
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GrahamN, dunno if slope management could justify doing anything given that my impression is that in the winter an even greater proportion of the hordes of clients are beginners/early intermediates, so they wouldn't be doing anything for faster skiers at the expense of the bulk of their clients, and in the off season the problem is much diminished anyway. Here's a thought, if you buzz enough beginners enough times, they'll find somewhere else to ski! 
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| roga, You've hit the nail on the head perfectly. |
Ah but I've been ignored ... as I suspected might be the case lol!
GrahamN, totally recognise the scenario you describe and totally sympathise - ultimately IMHO we don't have indoor slopes in the UK that are big enough!
| slikedges wrote: |
| GrahamN, There's no rule says that you have to be considerate to faster skiers, only a rule that says you should allow enough space to pass the slower skier. |
There's a rule that says you shouldn't start to slide out onto a piste in front of another skier who was there before you and Graham clearly describes this happening to him. I've been in a similar position at Hemel (in fact Graham may have been there at the time because it was a Snowheads doo) when I've patiently waited at the top for the slope to clear a bit then started off and had someone suddenly decide to start sliding from a stationery position straight in front of me without any glance above them to see if they had right of way - somewhat galling to say the least, especially when another couple of seconds would have allowed me, as the faster skier, to be well past them. I've noted too that it isn't always beginners, who at least have some excuse, doing this kind of thing but quite a few intermediate skiers too, certainly when I've been at the slope!
Perhaps the slope management should consider some well placed notices at the side of the lifts and elsewhere explaining in simple terms what the basics of the safety code are, some of the staff I've seen at the top of the slope could also be a bit more proactive in reminding people about the safety code. Personally I don't think it's any worse than it is on mountains it's just that people are squeezed in to a much smaller space and this makes their lack of regard for safety and other slope users far more obvious.
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On the racers point - I went to Chill Factore once and the experience of limited laps due to race brats queue jumping excessively with no moderation from staff was enough to ensure I would never want to go again. Its an experience not limited to the UK - everywhere I've been you get race brats cutting people up while freeskiing or ignoring queueing etiquette e.g. maze filters or patrol only entrances in US. Better coaches make sure they get a bollocking.
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fatbob, The problem for coaches is that they often need to stay at the top so can't see what is happening. If the staff don't do anything then you could talk to the coach yourself.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, perfectly within your right to choose to decide never to go again, as long as you realise that your experience is not likely to be representative and don't then go on to condemn the establishment roundly on the back of a limited negative experience. I'm not suggesting for a minute that you might do this but it seems to me that on the back of a very few visits to them, a few posters on this site have taken every opportunity to then condemn the domes in question in an apparently perpetual state of pique (partic in the case of MK!).
roga, there's a rule that says look uphill before you start from a stationary position so you don't ski into someone's path causing them to take evasive action, but this is a completely separate rule and really isn't the main thrust of Graham's argument though he did mention such an incident perpetrated by a slope patroller no less at the end of his post. On the point of your hitting the nail on the head (or not), you correctly state that people want good snow, but I don't agree with your sentiment that this is somehow to be frowned upon. Often when I go to a dome my purpose is aided by a consistent and firm surface. Maybe one day when I get good enough to consider all my performances to be at acquired or refinement level I'll want to be additionally challenged by always seeking repetitions on unpredictable and crappy snow!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You have to hiss at them and go "SSSSnake, Ssssssnake, Ssssssnake"
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| slikedges wrote: |
| roga, there's a rule that says look uphill before you start from a stationary position so you don't ski into someone's path causing them to take evasive action, but this is a completely separate rule and really isn't the main thrust of Graham's argument though he did mention such an incident perpetrated by a slope patroller no less at the end of his post. |
Graham can comment on his own experience, I was saying I have some sympathy for Graham and commenting on my personal experience and the fact that often, whether in a dome or on a mountain, people seem to also forget the rule about skiing into people's paths, which was something that happened to Grahams at Hemel as you mention.
| Quote: |
| On the point of your hitting the nail on the head (or not), you correctly state that people want good snow, but I don't agree with your sentiment that this is somehow to be frowned upon. Often when I go to a dome my purpose is aided by a consistent and firm surface. Maybe one day when I get good enough to consider all my performances to be at acquired or refinement level I'll want to be additionally challenged by always seeking repetitions on unpredictable and crappy snow! |
I intended to make no value judgement but if that's the implication you choose to take from my post then fine, your choice but absolutely not my intention. However, the reality of mountains is that conditions change and IMHO part of the challenge of skiing in a 'real' mountain environment is to deal with whatever conditions come your way but I guess it can be avoided wherever possible by only skiing in certain places and at certain times of year when conditions are more predictable and frankly that's what many people do. It's their choice and I'm sure they have a great time, I certainly hope so and perhaps they're the sensible ones sitting indoors in front of a roaring fire when others are out freezing their knackers off in grotty conditions lol.
The main point I was under the impression I was making above though was rather a 'glass half full' argument which is if the snow is a bit 'cruddy' then why not turn it to an advantage and take the opportunity to learn to ski it better, it'll help your skiing overall and there's absolutely no need to wait for some moment when your skills get to a certain level because I suspect that moment won't come with that approach, in fact learning to ski cruddier snow will help to raise your level. However if people choose to take the 'glass half empty' attitude and complain about/blame the conditions underfoot then c'est la vie, my advice would be to avoid periods when slope usage is high (i.e. the winter) in domes and to stay indoors in front of the fire (or go shopping) when in a mountain environment and conditions are tough.
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You know it makes sense.
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slikedges, My Chill Factore experience consisted of getting there at opening time only to get 4 laps in an hour due to (one of two) lift breakdown and a lack of response from management to subsequently restrict numbers on the slope or manage the race brats' behaviour (who had already been on the slope for a couple of hours I imagined given that some were changing to leave when I arrived). Given that this could have been managed around I took it as indicative of management attitude.
My poor opinion of MK is based on an extended period of sampling.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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fatbob, rhetorical question: why do you think it is that your description of children who race as "race brats" makes me somewhat uneasy and less inclined to sympathise with your POV than I might otherwise be?!
Just a general comment on this issue which is obviously a problem at Hemel; at Gloucester, which has a couple of slopes which are IIRC longer than Hemel, the junior ski clubs use the slope exclusively after hours when no recreational skiers are on the slope and as a result there are no conflicts or complaints from those not participating in race training (notwithstanding the fact the 2 junior clubs who use the slope appear to have far better behaved members than those at Hemel if the descriptions above are accurate). To be honest it very much surprises me that it is thought appropriate in such a cramped environment to mix junior race training with what sounds like fairly high numbers of recreational skiers and boarders - for those in the know is there a reason why at Hemel this is thought to be appropriate?
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Poster: A snowHead
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roga, Race training at CFe is from 07:00-09:00 on a Sunday morning.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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roga, Monday nights and Sunday mornings before 09.00 are exclusive race Training sessions at Hemel. I don't think race training should be mixed in with recreational users, unless it it confined to a segregated lane, especially if lessons are also taking place on the slope at the time. it can't be ideal for the race training either.
The reason it's scheduled is pretty obvious to me though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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roga, a large part of the problem is that the slope is so successful. The Hemel Race Club has (AIUI) now got 150 active members and a waiting list (NickW could confirm this), and that's just with restricting membership to those who will put HRC as their first named club. So there's huge demand. There are then other clubs who buy time there (e.g. SASA on Sundays, Impulse during the summer, and is would seem Kandahar), which has to coexist with general recreational use - the centre is open until 11pm, so there is no out-of-hours time for dedicated race club time. These activities can coexist, but do require management for it to work. The problem with relying just on the FIS rules is that with no additional management the slower skiers are by definition going to be spending more time actually on the slope, will be downhill of the faster skiers waiting for a turn, and so will always be controlling the available routes down, and priorities in slope access are necessarily skewed. There is already a model in the use of the freestyle furniture - you only go into those areas of the slope if you're taking a jump etc., so one possibility would be having evenings with a segregated high speed lane, but not restricted to race club skiers. The downside of this though is that it would necessarily be quite narrow, so would only be suitable for short radius/slalom turns
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| roga, a large part of the problem is that the slope is so successful. The Hemel Race Club has (AIUI) now got 150 active members and a waiting list (NickW could confirm this), and that's just with restricting membership to those who will put HRC as their first named club. So there's huge demand. There are then other clubs who buy time there (e.g. SASA on Sundays, Impulse during the summer, and is would seem Kandahar), which has to coexist with general recreational use - the centre is open until 11pm, |
The centre is now open until 10.15 at night, apart from Friday freestyle night when it's 11.00pm. Dedicated Race Training is on a Sunday morning before 9.00am when it opens to the public.
There's no reason why the same thing can't be done early on a Saturday morning. They'd have to be a bit sharpish clearing the jumps from Friday night, but there still should be enough time for the snow to firm up, or even if they started the race session at 8.00 and not open to the public till 9.30.
I think the narrow fast lane would be a good idea on certain nights, it's no worse than having the mini-park on a Thursday night during the Summer.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Seems like there may be sufficient demand for another facility in the SE.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Seems like there may be sufficient demand for another facility in the SE. |
Well, there's a load of tunnelling equipment they're not using now the A3 tunnel at Hindhead's done - skiing under the Devil's Punchbowl would be quite acceptable .
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GrahamN,Putting a roof over the Devil's Punchbowl even better
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roga, Common vernacular. As one American lady standing next to me in a lift line in US said as a group of kids barged past us on a filter -"No manners, must have grown up here!". To be fair I would also use the term Race Kids who are Well Behaved and a Fine Role Model to Other Recreational Slope Users but in the behaviour I witnessed it would be a bit of a stretch.
To be clear I've seen plenty of good behaviour from ski clubs in many places but kids being kids they have a tendency to a) mess around, b) show off and c) disrespect rules or conventions applying to adults. Anyone who hasn't had a French kid in race gear attempt the old "under, round, round the other way" manouveur in a liftline hasn't skied much in France I suspect.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, But that continues into adulthood in France.
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fatbob, wasn't referring to you re: MK but so that's MK, CFE and Hemel down, you'll definitely need another slope built soon, or it looks like no more dome skiing for you! 
roga,
| you wrote: |
Forgive me for being candid but on the whole but what it appears some people want is what's often called 'hero snow', as in snow that makes you feel like you're a skiing hero (put unkindly it flatters you and makes you think you're better than you really are). We've had loads of that stuff this year in Scotland (in fact it sounds like there's more 'hero snow' in Scotland than Hemel lol ) but usually there's not so much and conditions aren't so consistent and some people who hit the more challenging stuff will tend to blame the snow rather than see it as a challenge to up their ability.
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And you'll forgive me but I found this just a tad patronising. Maybe it wasn't intended to be but I'm sure I'm not the only who would get that impression. The reason I don't share your sentiment on good snow isn't that skiing imperfect snow is no fun or no good. I already said
| I wrote: |
Hemel bumps on a weekend evening, formed naturally due to how busy it gets, can indeed be good for learning on as they're well formed but much more forgiving than most real examples. Bumps don't ever really form naturally at MK for various reasons. The "ice" at either MK or Hemel is usually possible to get a proper edge on if attentive to your skiing, so again, good training. The deeper/softer stuff in both is a fair deal heavier than much you'd encounter on a real mountain but again is worth practising all your steering skills in.
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on page 2 above your first post. However some people quite reasonably want to practise whatever they're working on in good snow and I don't see a problem with that. Of course on the occasion that I finish teaching last thing on a busy weekend I often do take the opportunity play about on the slope and this is the time when it is certainly at its most and cut up and skied out.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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slikedges, Don't mind Hemel yet - haven't been since early Dec & probably won't go til May or June.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Spyderman, there's no Sun am Hemel club race training session as of end of Feb - it's back to Wed pm from a couple of weeks ago until October. If attending numbers are big enough, the club pays for exclusive use of the slope. If not they may just take one or two "lanes" for gates, so exclusive use of that section of the slope only and sharing the rest of the slope with the public. The fee paid by the club presumably includes use of the rest of the slope to free ski and this is needed for the many drills that aren't being done through gates. While a lot of race training does take place through gates at certain times of the training cycle, overall more training is done out of gates than in. Of course all club members should be behaving in a responsible and courteous manner to other slope users (and each other) but as fatbob says, they're kids so it isn't always that easy to achieve or stay on top of.
GrahamN, you can be a member of Hemel without putting it down as first name but you pay more for training and would be first to be bumped off if there's competition for places. I think you're right though that currently only people who are prepared to put the club down as first name are being accepted as there is indeed a waiting list. There is indeed a lot of demand but there are also other clubs! Ski MK Race Team up the road has places at the moment but are filling up fairly quickly. Lots of triallists turning up and many being accepted in all age groups.
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You know it makes sense.
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Spyderman, 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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fatbob, is quietening down now...I think all the domes round here will be fine from after Easter hols
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Poster: A snowHead
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Spyderman, there's no Sun am Hemel club race training session as of end of Feb - it's back to Wed pm from a couple of weeks ago until October. |
Looks like I'll be putting myself off the teaching availability for Wednesday night then.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges, how does the public know if the slope is shut on a Weds evening tho? I'd hate to imagine people coming for a casual ski and finding they can't because HRC have impromptu-booked the entire venue.
GrahamN, totally sympathize with you on people jumping ahead when you're waiting for a clear run. To be honest the increased numbers on the slopes put me off the Thursday night sessions (and the SH bashes there) long before freestyle became an issue.
Spyderman, Monday evening is usually only reserved 6-8pm, unless something has changed. We certainly had the odd punter on the slope (and in our slalom course  ) during Phil's late-Monday sessions last year.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sideshow_Bob, i dont believe it will be sole use as the numbers wont warrant it. but if the weds sessions prove popular Hemel will shut it like on monday, but it would be scheduled and not an ad hoc thing... most kids will continue to train on mondays with mainly older people on weds is what i am hearing..
monday is fully reserved for HSRC on the main slope but after 8 it is mixed and punters do onto courses at times....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sideshow_Bob, just as skimottaret says, it didn't used to be busy enough to warrant exclusive use on Wed and on Mon HSRC is only there 6-8pm virtually always on an exclusive use basis, so rec skiing is simply blocked out. I'm sure as skimott says if Wed got busy enough, same would happen on a formal and regular basis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, curious as to whether your CFe experience was in the summer or at least before the start of the busy winter period? As rjs, says, Sunday morning training is 7-9 and at the moment we are kicked off promptly at 9 as lots of other people come in to use the slope. I believe that in the summer when it was quieter they were allowed to stay on until about 10 although officially the session was only 7-9.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Sideshow_Bob wrote: |
Spyderman, Monday evening is usually only reserved 6-8pm, unless something has changed. |
I'm sure you're right  6-8pm, not 6-9pm. I've never been there on a Monday.
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Has anyone considered a new thread: Anti-queue jumping techniques?
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vivski, It was early Nov 2008 so maybe they have improved protocols since - however did not see any coaches "encouraging" their charges to queue properly so maybe they were unsupervised in which case slope staff should have bollocked them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, you'll forgive me if I leave it there and bow out of the discussion with you with the firm impression you're determined to misconstrue whatever I say on the matter and I accept that whatever anyone else says you certainly aren't going to modify your demand for perfect snow as and when you want it! I stand by what I said above and if you choose not to any of my comments on board and instead try to manufacture an argument and suggest I'm patronising then fine, IMHO says more about you than me.
Hopefully the snow next time you ski at Hemel will be as you demand and you'll feel happier about the matter, I wish you luck and I wish Hemel the best of luck too!
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| roga, Monday nights and Sunday mornings before 09.00 are exclusive race Training sessions at Hemel. |
Ah, I didn't realise that - apologies for my ignorance on the matter above.
| Quote: |
| I don't think race training should be mixed in with recreational users, unless it it confined to a segregated lane, especially if lessons are also taking place on the slope at the time. it can't be ideal for the race training either. |
Agreed but is there genuinely enough room for a dedicated race lane and would it be roped/netted off?
| Quote: |
| The reason it's scheduled is pretty obvious to me though. |
Yup agreed.
| GrahamN wrote: |
| roga, a large part of the problem is that the slope is so successful. |
Yes, I very much get that impression.
| Quote: |
| The Hemel Race Club has (AIUI) now got 150 active members and a waiting list (NickW could confirm this), and that's just with restricting membership to those who will put HRC as their first named club. So there's huge demand. There are then other clubs who buy time there (e.g. SASA on Sundays, Impulse during the summer, and is would seem Kandahar), which has to coexist with general recreational use - the centre is open until 11pm, so there is no out-of-hours time for dedicated race club time. These activities can coexist, but do require management for it to work. The problem with relying just on the FIS rules is that with no additional management the slower skiers are by definition going to be spending more time actually on the slope, will be downhill of the faster skiers waiting for a turn, and so will always be controlling the available routes down, and priorities in slope access are necessarily skewed. There is already a model in the use of the freestyle furniture - you only go into those areas of the slope if you're taking a jump etc., so one possibility would be having evenings with a segregated high speed lane, but not restricted to race club skiers. The downside of this though is that it would necessarily be quite narrow, so would only be suitable for short radius/slalom turns |
Good points and I agree, pain it'd only be suitable for short radius but I guess people would have to accept that.
| fatbob wrote: |
| roga, Common vernacular. As one American lady standing next to me in a lift line in US said as a group of kids barged past us on a filter -"No manners, must have grown up here!". To be fair I would also use the term Race Kids who are Well Behaved and a Fine Role Model to Other Recreational Slope Users but in the behaviour I witnessed it would be a bit of a stretch. |
LOL, yeah I can see why it'd be a bit of a stretch!
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| To be clear I've seen plenty of good behaviour from ski clubs in many places but kids being kids they have a tendency to a) mess around, b) show off and c) disrespect rules or conventions applying to adults. Anyone who hasn't had a French kid in race gear attempt the old "under, round, round the other way" manouveur in a liftline hasn't skied much in France I suspect. |
Yup, seen that urgh! I always find as they try to push past placing the poles firmly across the front of their shins tends to slow their progress down if not stop it, couple that with strategically ignoring them and you've got one very annoyed junior racer ... have to say that's brought a warm glow to me in France on a few occasions  Never had to use the tactic in Scotland, they seem to stick to the rules and do as they're told there so I'd guess the lot you're complaining about will have spent more time in France and picked up bad habits ... shame really
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