 Poster: A snowHead
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Another forum that I use has separate sections for discussions only in Welsh, Gaelic and Cornish!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Helen Beaumont, good idea. One of the instructors in Les Gets will do the same for me but I prefer if he practices his English during the technical bits 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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They probably thought you were going to hit on their girlfriends, best to put them at ease by saying you are in no way attracted to sheep. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As a two year old my little boy soon learnt that if he said bonjour and merci in a shop he would be given a sweet by the shop assistant 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB,
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They probably thought you were going to hit on their girlfriends,
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You talking to me? I'm not that way inclined! 
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rayscoops, actually it was more like 44%, and the figures refer only to people buying full day or multi-day passes.
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Sometimes it's not even about language, its about behaviour. On a Eurostar journey I waited for ages so that two young French guys could drag their suitcases up the aisle. They then walked past without saying thank you". I was gobsmiacked  and proceded to let them know what I thought of them. On returning to my seat, my Francophile friend informed me that it was just their cultural norm that people would move out of the way to let you pass and no thank you was needed.
We see - rude, arrogant French people
They see - overly polite Brits
Generally, good behaviour is universal - friendly, nice and approachable usually means more forgiveness for language/cultural errors. Being a total $%*() is the same whichever country you're in!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, wow, in that case I never had you down as a sheep fetish type 
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rayscoops, 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Last week in Lech we went out for a couple of days with the ski hosting group from the chalet. I did cringe a bit when even the ski host ordered in English and couldn't even manage to say 'danke schoen' when drinks arrived. No-one else in the group made any effort and I got a bit sneered at with 'ooh, speak german do we?' I am by no means any hot shot with language but I can manage 'ein heisse schokolade ohne sahne und ein kaffee bitte' and 'die Rechnung bitte', with the odd Gruss Gott, Guten Morgen & Vielen dank thrown in. I also found it a bit weird after I'd just made a mangled effort at ordering lunch to hear a large group of either Norwegians or Fins ordering their lunch, in English - I could have saved myself the bother!
I always like ordering chips in Austria - there's something very satisfying about pronouncing 'pommes' as 'pommers'
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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cathy,
While in Austria use "Schlagobers" instead of "Sahne" for better results.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Am I the only one to be suspicious of the good manners of people who boast how well-mannered they are? |
No indeed, in fact, I think it may be rather ill-mannered, to boast about how well-mannered one is , just as it is rather rude, to point out how rude someone else is!
cathy, I don't get the sneering thing, it is annoying, although it has only happened to me on one or two occasions. The group we normally ski with are keen to try German, but are on the whole Not Very Good, and know it, so generally ordering a meal involves 9 people yelling their order to me 'D, can you ask him (the waiter) for a large beer and a schnitzel and chips please', errmm...well I think he might have got that, he does speak English better than most of you lot. The Austrians usually smirk and are pretty good-humoured about it though, I have never encountered anyone expecting me to speak German, and even on one of my bad days, when I do speak German, they normally make a big deal about how brilliant my German is (it isn't!).
I think it's a matter of pride to lots of Austrians, the hospitality industry is treated as more of a respected profession than here I think, so being a waiter isn't just something you do between 18 and 21 to sub your student loan. They take pride in being good hosts and speaking good English is part of that.
When I lived in Austria, I actually had trouble getting anyone to let me speak German as they were all so keen to practice their English, which was at times frustrating as I was there to learn German!
I have experienced snootiness about my less than perfect French in France, but I am pretty sure it was from snooty individuals rather than a national snootiness.
I have to say I really hated the feeling of isolation the one day I spent in Slovenia when I literally didn't speak a work of Slovenian, I couldn't even ask for a bottle of water. It was a very odd and not pleasant feeling and I would hate to be like that wherever I went.
DB, I like to use Austrian vocab/dialect where possible, and to be honest, as that is what I learnt when I lived there, it is what automatically comes out if I'm not thinking about it, it would never cross my mind to use some of the 'German' equivalents, but I sometimes flummox people with my Anglo-kaerntnerisch, you can see them thinking...you're not from Salzburg, I think you're English, so why are you saying 'oachtel'. In Germany people generally hear my Austrian accent before they hear my English accent.
D
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Deliaskis, I can mumble a few German words and numbers and pronounce things from the menu, and my mates were very happy with that, especially when I told them they could simply say 'Morgan' any time before 12 mid-day which was easy for a Welshman to remember, especially the ones called Morgan in the group
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Poster: A snowHead
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In German, I can say ..... "Ich habe kein hund". Which is of fairly limited use really.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"Ich habe keinen Hund" is much more useful
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| laundryman wrote: |
pam w, +1
I've spent a lot of time in Ireland in recent years and they're definitely more polite than the English in that regard. The hotel in Dublin was full of Italian rugby supporters this week. They were very well behaved. |
That's becuase they were rugby supporters - if the hotal was full of Italian football fans you wouldn't have been so impressed
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As I mainly get my snow-fix in North America, I've always found the standard of English passable.
However i do always find myself decending into what has become known as UltraEnglish, my usual south london speech is tranformed on landing into the Queen English - really i can't help myself - i'm surprised i don't start riding with a bowler hat and tightly furled umbrella...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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slikedges, I'd be interested to hear where you expect to find an army of fluent Englush-speaking staff in a mountain village with a population of 2000.
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I certainly haven't found an 'expectation' that we will speak French in Monetier. They are pleased when we try, and we manage conversations in a mixture of French and English. Hilariously!! If they don't speak English it doesn't make them any less friendly. Some of the friendliest villagers do not speak English at all. Monetier has a permanent population of around a 1000 residents. English is becoming more regularly spoken, but I actually think it is a shame rather than an improvement.
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slikedges, it would be interesting to know the exact circumstances which led to the view you have of the French.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard, most Italian mountain villages for a start...
but I feel better if I can get by a bit in the local lingo.
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I think youre all being uneccessarily hard on Brits about the whole language thing.
Think about the millions of people in Europe who live in border regions within earshot of one, perhaps two foreign languages...Zermatt springs to mind. Bi-lingual households not uncommon, local newsagents stock newspapers in several foreign languages, you hear the same divers languages flicking through TV channels, etc...Exposure to foreign languages begins from day one.
Compare that with England/English. No other European language is spoken so exclusively than English is spoken in England, largely due to our location (an island, in case you forgot!), and our history, where up to a fifth of the worlds population was under English speaking authority.
These factors alone offer significant justification for our ineptitude at languages. When you consider also that English is the worlds language for business, medicine, law, tourism, entertainment, media, etc..., then i really dont have a problem with monolingugal brits.
Not bothering to learn a few foreign phrases is lazy and a bit discourteous to your host country, working in the hospitality sector with no English skills is naive.
Language aside, as someone who has lived in Austria for 7 years, i can categorically state that Brits are infinitely more polite than the locals, here in Vienna at least. Monty Python, Cricket and good music have all been very successful English exports but trust me, common courtesy doesnt seem to have caught on!
Sp8rs!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Lizzard, I didn't say they all spoke it... but most of those who live in Italian Mountain villages and work above cleaner/dishwasher level will have some English and German.
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stoatsbrother, well if that's all anyone wants, you should find adequate linguistic skills anywhere. I have colleagues who blatantly don't speak English and would never claim to do so, but can pick out key words such as (for example) 'lessons' and 'instructor' and respond with 'inside' and 'ESF ski school'. I can do much the same in Italian. I had the impression from posts on here that people were expecting fluent conversation.
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You know it makes sense.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Lizzard, I didn't say they all spoke it... but most of those who live in Italian Mountain villages and work above cleaner/dishwasher level will have some English and German. |
Don't count on it, I have met two piste patrollers in different resorts in the Aosta valley who didn't speak any English, they both spoke a bit of French but still less than I did. Maybe the one in Gressoney would have had some German.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rjs, are you familiar with the word "most" ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Let's be realistic here. If you walk into a three star plus hotel you have a right to expect English-speaking staff at least on the reception desk, and probably in the bar and restaurant as well. On the other hand, if you're just eating in a local restaurant, drinking in a bar or even buying lift tickets or being rescued, you can count it a bonus. Employers try to recruit linguists (look at the ads on ANPE) but at the end of the day they will take people with an appropriate balance of skills, and language is merely desirable whereas cash handling experience, waiting skills, customer service qualifications, decent references etc etc blah are essential.
Incidentally, there are quite a lot of competent English people floating around the Alps, but they can't get work outside the TO/Brit bars bubble because they don't speak French despite having worked here for numerous seasons.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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slikedges, your evidence is thin, to put it mildly. But you're obviously conscious of that yourself.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Whitegold ..... get over yourself.
G
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The issue is them being obstructive or obnoxious when visitors don't speak the local lingo
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So given that they aren't, there isn't an issue is there? Why were we all rabbiting on about this again?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I ordered a beer in English in a hotel bar/cafe on Nyon (Morzine) a few years ago and the bar man told me (in perfect English) I should be ordering it in French because I was in France ! In my defence every bar/cafe person that had initiated a conversation with me ('what can I get you' type thing) had been in English in every bar I had been in the previous four days, I assume because they heared me talking in English to my mates at the time.
Does that count as a bit stroppy ?
edit - i would normally order in the language of the country so not sure why I did not do so this time, it was a large open air hotel/recention/cafe/mountain establishment type place and I was the only person there (except for some loud English guests/workers coming in and out) and my order in English for two beers just sort of slipped out
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 11-02-10 14:22; edited 1 time in total
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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The issue is them being obstructive or obnoxious when visitors don't speak the local lingo
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So given that they aren't, there isn't an issue is there? Why were we all rabbiting on about this again? |
Because there is an impression, often rightly IMO, that english people & skiers can be a bit rude/ignorant when abroad. Specifically in their efforts to communicate with locals in the service industries. This is proven by the number of people saying as the customer it's their right to act how they want or that english is the main conversant language internationally now so why shouldn't they. This particular group of people then tried to turn it around saying it's only french who have this attitude towards the english, which i don't personally believe is true &, to blame the french. As opposed to acknowledging their own failings & just trying to be a little more polite.
Or to put it another way. As my mother says good manners cost nothing & it takes little or no effort to learn a few simple phrases in the local tongue.
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rayscoops, whatever your reason for ordering in English, I agree that that is clear evidence of stroppiness!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It may have nothing to do with a language barrier, more the staff are working flat out, whereas we are in holiday mode and faffing about, dilly dallying, so are winding them them up when they are under pressure. Who amongst us never gets a little short with some customers, especially if we know they won't be repeat business
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Slightly off-topic  but the people whose attitude I can never understand are the TO reps who man the transfer coaches. IME they almost always speak such poor English that we (native English-speaking Brit tourists) can hardly understand their inane waffle and they speak absolutely no local lingo at all. If the coach driver doesn't speak quite good English (and why should he??), there's no way to communicate with the rep eg, 'how much longer will it take to reach resort?', 'can you go to hotel A before hotel B, please?', etc.
I know all the arguments about TO reps being paid peanuts, etc, etc but these are people who live in a foreign country for, at least, a few weeks / months and whose job necessarily involves regular interaction with local service providers - hotels, maintenance men, coach drivers, etc. It''s one thing to be a tourist in a hotel for a week or two and not speak the lingo (although IMV it's only polite for tourists to, at least, be able to be polite in the local language) but how the reps have the brass neck to live somewhere all season and still not be able to speak even the most basic local language is beyond me.
This is an example of where Brits' attitudes differ from other nationalities - I can't believe any, say, German, Italian or even Japanese TO reps working regularly in England (or anywhere else for that matter) would be entirely unable to communicate in the local language.
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FAQ
