 Poster: A snowHead
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| Freddie Paellahead wrote: |
| queen bodecia wrote: |
youspurs1, yes, but the truly reckless don't care about things like that. For example the woman who crashed into my mum's car and rendered her permanently disabled. She had no license, no insurance and was already serving a ban. The further ban made no difference to her at all, she just bought another car and carried on driving.
What's to say a reckless skier/boarder won't feel the same about a 'license'? |
The slight difference between skiing and driving in this analogy is that you would need the license to be allowed to buy the car (lift pass) - of course you could always walk up the slope, but only the dedicated (also known as free-heelers  ) are likely to keep that up for long.
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There is another major difference - most people with a licence and access to a vehicle will drive at some point almost every week of the year, most of it to serve some other purpose, while tourist skiers will mainly ski one or two weeks per year, and do so for pleasure only.
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Having said that, better piste patrol would get my vote.
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Absolutely. That is one thing I believe the Americans do better than the Europeans, as a rule.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Endless legislation is ruining this world. Don't let it ruin the freedom of skiing. Stop bimbling around and learn to ski well enough to avoid nutters. How many accidents are caused by pin heads stopping in stupid places. basically everyone should stop whinging, mtfu or wtfu and enjoy the snow 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It is not just out of control skiers it is people skiing at 100% through very busy areas with no margin for error or other peoples errors
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this thread needs to be combined with the ongoing one about "road rant" and people driving too fast on motorways
stay away fron them, teach yuor kids how to stay away from them and not become them
try and find the nice quiet resorts on here that no-one has heard of and support th elocal communities there instead of th ebigger resorts ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Oh my God. "Tourist numbers" might suffer. Oh my God.
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Sod off, you arrogant git. Mountain communities rely on tourism generally and ski tourism in particular for their survival. A serious long-term drop in tourist numbers means job losses for people who already only have seasonal employment, bankruptcy for local businesses, and ultimately the disappearance of a traditional way of life which only persists because it is supported by tourism.
Now, push off back to your mollycoddled city existance.
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Lizzard, well said.
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Lizzard, absolutely. I have sensed some scorn poured on holiday skiers like me from seasonnaires or simply people who think they're 'above that', but we are the mainstay of the industry.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Lizzard, well said. |
What do you mean "well said"? She begins with the customary gratuitous insult, followed by a bunch of self-serving statements that don't begin to address the issue: the danger posed by untrained out-of-control skiers who should be required (in my opinion) to prove their ability to steer and brake before they are flogged liftpasses giving them access to all gradients and all speeds.
As I've said, those who are truly rooted in Alpine villages and have studied the ongoing breakdown of ski safety, and are concerned to protect repeat business and revenues, take the view that they've actually got to do something about these issues and place the personal accountability of skiers onto the agenda.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Sockpuppet, why do you think the licence idea would work better than more effective policing of the slopes (which I think everyone on this thread has agreed is necessary)?
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In my view, you need a combination of the two things you mention. At the moment we only have one (which isn't really being applied), and the other sanction doesn't exist.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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beanie1, agreed. The ability to ski competently enough to pass a test doesn't mean the certificate holder won't ski recklessly and get out of control at a high speed. An out of control beginner is more likely to be travelling at a relatively slow speed so is less of a danger surely?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sure, but the piste police could pull that person's licence, transmit that action to an international database and rid the slopes of that person for a while.
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Bah, license, schmicense.
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Sockpuppet wrote: |
| Sure, but the piste police could pull that person's licence, transmit that action to an international database and rid the slopes of that person for a while. |
Why not just take their pass and escort them off the mountain?
Forget about international databases of millions of individuals - if they worked then people with exploding pants wouldn't get on planes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Sockpuppet, you don't understand what is meant by the phrase "well said"? How peculiar!
Nobody in this thread who disagrees with the notion of a 'ski licence', certainly not me, has said that there isn't a problem. It's just differing opinions on how to tackle the problem. I think the ski licence will (a) not make any difference to people who ski dangerously, and (b) will cause other problems in the ski industry. It is, therefore, a barking mad idea.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, well said!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| David SockpuppetNobody in this thread who disagrees with the notion of a 'ski licence', |
I do. It's a riddiculous concept.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think the word 'who', and the rest of that sentence, might have been material to the semantics of Rob's point.
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Gazzza, I think you need to re-read rob@rar's post carefully! He (and most of us) agrees with you!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Oops... Yeah I should learn to read properly
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It's interesting the point made about 'saisonnaires' earlier on and the perception that they pour scorn over holiday skiers. The saisonnaires I've had the misfortune of skiing with are hardly what you'd describe as 'good' skiers at all. I have wasted many an hour indulging these sorts of hedonists on off piste trips with guides where, frankly, once off the the piste, they aren't simply up to it.
Don't be lulled into thinking that a saissonnaire is necessarily a 'good skier'-it's more likely that they're an indulged home counties Tory who can afford the luxury of spending a season or two on the slopes pretending to be a cool dude rasta whilst mummy and daddy keep their bed warm in Oxshott.
I really hope I don't have to waste any more time with these types of people who share the guiding I've paid for on a freebie to keep the TO and ski school happy.
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| Ian Fleming wrote: |
| What we're looking for here is a licence to skill, rather than a licence to kill |
I'm not sure if Ian Fleming was talking about ski safety when he made that statement - in fact I'm not sure if he said it at all - but I agree with him 100%.
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DAB, sorry, but that is an nonsensical point to make. I have a full UK driving licence, but it doesn't stop me, if I so chose, from driving.
I don't drink and drive, I'm just making a point.
beanie1, agreed, your solution is far better and far more feasible than having licences
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Looks like David Sockpuppet, will fit right in here.
This license should also have an off piste section cos it really annoys me when i watch people snowplough through some nice powder when they blatantly cant ski it, maybe they could get 3 points each time they are caught then banned (worldwide of course) when they get 12.
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anotherproblem, I dont agree with it! I think, like most here it wont stop reckless skiers, and it will be impossible to implement. I was merely surprised that Austria are contemplating it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well, I've not chucked my 2p into this one, and it's all quiet on the Western Front at work, so I guess I might as well while away the last few minutes...
I am a diver, and have been for many years, and have taught quite a few people to dive through different agencies. There is a system of recognised qualifications and these are worldwide simple systems - you are qualified to dive to X depth, using Y gas, or Z equipment, and 99% of the world never do anything more than getting an Open Water ticket from PADI.
The system does work. Rather interesting to see some of you that think that diving is significantly more dangerous than skiing - not true. Ask your insurance company what costs more, getting covered for diving to 30m (fairly standard recognised depth) and most will tell you it's included with almost any policy, if you are qualified. Ask them about skiing, especially off-piste, and they suddenly add on a fair whack of money (£30+) - this is because skiing is more dangerous. I can dig up some figures if people really want them, but in the UK on average we see something like 5 deaths a year. That is a very small number considering the thousands of man-dives undertaken in any given year around the coast and at inland sites. The risk of minor injury seems much higher in skiing, with broken bones, dislocations and bumps and bruising common on almost every trip (assume 12 people going away for a week, someone will get a significant minor injury of some sort) whereas with diving this is much less common, the risk in diving of the bends is probably an equivalent, and is much less frequent.
So now we've got over the "diving has to have qualification cards because it's the most dangerous sport in the world" thing, maybe we can look at why diving is incredibly safe. Inherently, people going underwater is dangerous. People can't breathe water, and when they do for any length of time, they normally die. As a result we have a system which certifies someone as safe to carry out that activity. Under the PADI system, if you don't dive for 12 months, you go and spend an hour in a swimming pool with an instructor, who shows you the ropes again and makes sure you're comfortable. In many resorts this is a "check out dive" or "orientation dive" and costs about £30. You don't have to do it, but it is reccomended.
I've seen some crashes on ski slopes from people who have no idea what they are doing. They don't look up, they don't look down, they can't control their speed, and they crash into someone minding their own business, usually at no fault of the person getting hit. These crashes can be really dangerous rear impact crashes, where the victim doesn't see it coming and is hit from behind - you notice that in rugby this kind of impact results in players getting sent off, it's because it's dangerous having your head whip backwards at speed. Never mind the skis, poles, head of the person hitting you.
Will a simple "I know what I'm doing, and have been educated on how not to be a menace to other people" card solve this? Probably a lot of it, yes. Especially if that card can be revoked by officials in the resort. There can be two simple systems - people who can ski already who just have to turn up for a 15 minute assessment with an instructor from X, Y or Z organisation, cost minimal, done in large group on the first morning/afternoon in resort, and covers any particularly pertinent points (a good time for a local to mention that a certain area is closed, what the avalanche risk is that week, and many ski schools might wake up to this as a potential opportunity for their instructors to advertise what nice people they are and offer further coaching later in the week - they could easily pick up on stuff like "Hey Mr Monium, you sit in the backseat a lot, if we did a couple of hours this week on your stance, you wouldn't find your thighs burning like hell after a couple of hours" so there's an upside for all.
If it makes it safer, who gives a damn about 15 minutes out of 40 available hours skiing over a week?
There will always, as there are with diving, be people who choose not to do any training. Who want to experience the risks for themselves with no assistance. These suicide jockeys can go ahead and do what they like. I'll be opting for resorts where there is a safer system - more than anything I am ok with someone barging into 17 stone of me and they need to be ready for the consequences of that, but if a 17 stone bloke batters into 10 stone Mrs Monium when she's skiing the chances of injury are much higher, and frankly it is a minor concern in busier resorts - I often ski at the back of the group with the girls in the middle and one of the guys up front, at least I can act as a back marker that protects the group or shout ahead to others that a cowboy who shouldn't be on the slopes is around as they come past me out of control.
One other thing - the PADI system costs £15 to PADI for a certification. That's basically an admin fee to cover producing the card and writing your name on it. £15 against the overall cost of skiing is almost insignificant frankly. The cost of the courses is often £250+ to pay for instructor time, however new skiiers/boarders will have to pay for lessons in their first week unless they can meet the "exam" standard without any lessons.
Nice little essay there. Maybe some food for thought 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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anotherproblem, thats ok
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You know it makes sense.
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| Monium wrote: |
| Will a simple "I know what I'm doing, and have been educated on how not to be a menace to other people" card solve this? Probably a lot of it, yes. |
On the other hand I think it will solve almost none of the truly dangerous skiing. The people who are out of control because they don't know what they are doing travel relatively slowly compared to the person who has many weeks experience and could easily pass a "basic test" but frankly doesn't give a damn how much of a threat they are to other slope users. The kind of people who take massive air off rollers without checking what's below them. The kind of people who straight-line red runs putting in a few checks to, just, control their speed (but often lose it, bigtime). Those are the kind of people who need to have their behaviour moderated, and a basic ski test will not achieve that.
I've seen several national systems developed to ensure a basic performance level. Often with the best of intentions they turn into bureaucratic monsters that devour all in front of them. The idea that a 'simple' ski test can be devised, recognised and operated across international borders is laughable.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's not laughable at all. I can use a Welsh driving licence in any country of the world. Car rental would collapse without instant recognition of foreign driving licences.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| kevin mcclean wrote: |
| Don't be lulled into thinking that a saissonnaire is necessarily a 'good skier'-it's more likely that they're an indulged home counties Tory who can afford the luxury of spending a season or two on the slopes pretending to be a cool dude rasta whilst mummy and daddy keep their bed warm in Oxshott. |
Of course, these conditions are not mutually exclusive.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So ski patrol has the right to withdraw people's lift pass until they can behave themselves? Something like take the pass away for the rest of the day (cancel is electronically) - a yellow card of sorts - and if they are caught again just take the pass of them completely?
That way the resort gets to keep the money, and everyone gets safer slopes.
Unfortunately this will require more people out on the slopes policing things, but then I'd like to see that anwyay, if nothing else as a visual deterrent, and also to respond to any crashes that might happen etc.
There aren't that many resorts. If a couple of the major resorts decided they were going to do it, many others would likely follow. I am thinking far more a basic ski test, which people can fail for demonstrating a crap attitude to the rules of the slopes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dangerous skiing is almost always about attitude, not knowledge or skills. Can't license that out. Driving and diving are completely different beasts.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Agreed-it's a false analogy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Monium wrote: |
| There aren't that many resorts. If a couple of the major resorts decided they were going to do it, many others would likely follow. |
There are hundreds, possibly thousands of ski resorts, across several different countries. The majority of the resorts are operated by independent lift companies, often with a multitude of ski schools and independent instructors from a range of different national ski authorities, in a variety of jurisdictions both local and national. Trying to get all that to work together would be like herding cats. I can't see how just a few of the big resorts doing this alone would change anything - any resort with a "you must be licensed to ski here" sign at the lift pass office would haemorrhage business, so either they all do or none of them do it.
| Monium wrote: |
| I am thinking far more a basic ski test, which people can fail for demonstrating a crap attitude to the rules of the slopes. |
I don't see how a written or practical test at which you recite the 10 FIS rules and smile sweetly when asked if you're going to be respectful will guarantee behaviour for the rest of a person's skiing career. Once upon a time I could recite most of the Highway Code and I didn't speed in my driving test. Neither of those things are true now. It is because of the nature of my personality that I don't drive recklessly and dangerously, and I don't see how that can be assessed in a simple test.
On the other hand I'm willing to arrange the testing for skiers who wish to apply for such a licence. Why not do it in the UK at one of the indoor snow slopes to avoid wasting your precious holiday time. It will be a half-day test, with practical and theoretical components, all for a very reasonable £45 for which successful completion includes the issuing of a Gold Tufty Badge. Training for the "Test Of Skier Safety, Etiquette and Responsibility" would be available for £79 per day 
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Mr Laundryman-as always, you have a point and I suppose I am being polemical (always intentional). There is, however, a direct correlation between the 'grunginess' of a skier/saisonnaire and their social class: the more grungy, the more middle class. An affectation, I guess, by this lot to look poor because 'it's cool'.
So Mr cool dude saisonnaire rasta man rolling a rizla is likely to be a nice Tory boy at heart, even though he affects a Guy Ritchie accent.
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| Quote: |
Don't be lulled into thinking that a saissonnaire is necessarily a 'good skier'-it's more likely that they're an indulged home counties Tory who can afford the luxury of spending a season or two on the slopes pretending to be a cool dude rasta
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You want to try getting out of Val d'Isere now and then.
David Sockpuppet, loving your international database idea. In fact, let's stick the information in the government's proposed ID cards, and we'd better call those chaps who were doing the NHS uber-database and get a quote while we're at it. Assuming they haven't left all their files on a train somewhere again. 
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I have to agree with beanie1, I think most problems are with attitude rather than lack of skill, although there are some cases of unlucky accidents. I know when I learned to ski with a group of beginner friends, that some of us were more cautious than others. One of my friends decided to tackle a red run on his first day. Now this was a quiet slope with not many people on it, so his out of control, falling decent did seem funny at the time, he did give himself a number of bumps and bruises. But if this had been a busier slope and he had crashed into someone while out of control, then it would have been no laughing matter. However, he just refused to see it this way. He saw it as: he was just learning to ski, and 'pushing himself'.
Most injuries on the ski holidays I have been on have been because either people were tired at the end of the day, silly mistakes (catching an edge, etc), one unlucky collision, and a couple of ill-advised trips to the snow park.
I like the idea of a licence to ski, but cannot see how it could be enforced and managed without incurring significant additional costs. It could work a bit like a driving licence and if you get too many points, then you are banned, but this would involve far too much hassle/effort and there is still the problem of having an international standard and licence.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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How many people were taught when not to go for a "last run", how to behave on the slopes, shown video of accidents and injuries, shown the statistics, taught basic mountain craft, given resuce and navigation lessons etc. when learning to ski? After all, who was taught to drive and then left to work out what is safe and what is dangerous in their leisure? Ski instruction should include the essentials of being safe just like Padi and other instruction. It does not have to be licensed, it's just common sense.
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FAQ
