 Poster: A snowHead
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| paulio wrote: |
| Smoking, right. That's a fiver a day. That money could easily get you a family ski trip, maybe two. Where you have a couple who both smoke, this quantity of money is huge (£3k+pa). Last time I checked, smoking wasn't the preserve of the rich. It's more a question of priority than raw income. |
Good point, excellently made.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
I thought you lot were all loaded like me, but it seems most of you are just a bunch of pikey scratters.
Thats it, I'm off to the SCGB.  |
Mosha Marc, welcome to the SCBG.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| It's not only lift passes you need to pay for - equipment hire and lessons are also likely expenses for a first timer. |
Most TO's include hire and pass within the cost of a trip
| johnnyh wrote: |
| Also what you wear when you ski is not generally (for many people) the kind of thing you have in your cupboard |
The days when ski suit hire meant getting some old tatty gear that hadn't been washed are long gone. There are plenty of places where you can hire good quality ski suits for a small fraction of the cost of buying.
| johnnyh wrote: |
| First timers have to consider items such as ski socks, fleeces, goggles, gloves, etc. |
For a 1st time skier these will not cost that much, say around £50 for the basics
Basically good quality fully inclusive TO ski holidays can "always" be had (outside school holidays) for around £600 + (for 1st timers) a small outlay for some socks, gloves, goggles, etc. Even during half term, anyone that pays more for than £800 (fully inc) is doing so for their own reasons. Some people want to pay more and do their trip DIY, again they do this for their own reasons
So ski resorts are no longer just the domain of the rich
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| Wayne wrote: |
| johnnyh wrote: |
| It's not only lift passes you need to pay for - equipment hire and lessons are also likely expenses for a first timer. |
Most TO's include hire and pass within the cost of a trip
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Really? Most Tour Operators offer lift passes and equipment hire as additional extras (from which they'll make a few quid). Just a stab in the dark, but I reckon 80% of TO holidays would fall into this category, and from those that do include such items, most of those will be school parties.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| masmith wrote: |
| Really? Most Tour Operators offer lift passes and equipment hire as additional extras (from which they'll make a few quid). Just a stab in the dark, but I reckon 80% of TO holidays would fall into this category, and from those that do include such items, most of those will be school parties. |
So, shop around. T'interweb is a great place to start 
Oh and this bit
| masmith wrote: |
| (from which they'll make a few quid). |
There does seems to be a small resentment to (and lot of little digs at) TO's making a profit in some parts of this forum. Why? If you get your gear from us then you are paying less than you would be if you got it direct (DIY). So everyone gains.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Wayne wrote: |
So, shop around. T'interweb is a great place to start |
Have been shopping around for the last 25 years, do you have any industry facts to support the claim of "Most TO's include hire and pass within the cost of a trip " ?
| Wayne wrote: |
| masmith wrote: |
| (from which they'll make a few quid). |
There does seems to be a small resentment to TO's making a profit in some parts of this forum. Why? If you get your gear from us then you are paying less than you would be if you got it direct (DIY). So everyone gains. |
No resentment at all, purely observation. TO's are out to make a profit, this is a legitimate way of contributing to that. Buying passes/hire from a TO is not necessarily cheaper than buying DIY though, however I accept that in your case it may be so.
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masmith,
I'll go further. "ALL" TO's offer lift passes and anything you need for your holiday within the cost of the trip
If you look at the headline price (in a RyanAiresk fashion) then your not doing it right.
The Headline price of a ski holiday is not what matters. The "Total" cost is all that should concern you.
Click through the booking form until you get to the amount they want from you. "That" is the fully inc. cost.
I am making the assumption that everyone now understand thats Headline prices (in all but a very few cases - like us  ) are not the true cost of a holiday.
As I said
| Wayne wrote: |
| Most TO's include hire and pass within the cost of a trip |
It's only the very small ones or the accommodation only (primarily chalet operators) operator that don't
"The cost of a trip" is very easy to work out and it totally depends on what you want to do when you arrive. Most people going to a ski resort want to ski. So the cost of the trip includes everything that is needed to produce this holiday.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| Most TO's include hire and pass within the cost of a trip |
Fair enough, now I understand where you're coming from - headline price vs actual price paid.
So arguably, what you should have said was
"Most TO's include hire and pass and ski school and airport taxes and fuel duty and insurance within the cost of a trip"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| masmith wrote: |
| "Most TO's include hire and pass and ski school and airport taxes and fuel duty and insurance within the cost of a trip" |
No, not all include insurance. We used to, but don't any more as TO's now need to be authorised by the FSA to do this.
But we do include everything else such a the 3 reams of A4 paper that arrived today, the server charges for the webs site, the motorway toll fees to get the vehicles to resort, the postage for the confirmations that we send out, the office telephone bills and council business rates, payment to native.co.uk to recruit temp staff, etc, etc. Oh and we also have to supply hotels, lift passes, etc from the cost of the ski holiday.
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Late to the party - as usual, so am sure it's all been said before but....! As a once a year holiday I don't think it's expensive. When we did the full on summer holiday it probably cost pretty much the same with better accommodation as more likely to spend more time there, eating, drinking, attractions, the torture of endless rounds of crazy golf etc etc etc. With skiing the vast majority of costs are completey 'budgetable' save prehaps a few ancillary costs - hot chocs, meal out etc. We certainly have little enthusiasm (or energy!)for more than a nod in the apres ski direction. Certainly though it doesn't come close to a couple of weeks in a field under a tent which is the preferred summer budget option in this neck of the woods.
The trouble comes when it morphs from a holiday into a hobby or sport. Once a year doesn't cut it anymore, you want better (if not your own) equipment, you start making regular 2hr round trips to 'fridges' etc etc etc. Then it starts to get expensive - but that's the choice we make between skiing or 101 other things that you could be doing with the money. One day I WILL hate the retro '80's tiles in the bathroom enough to cut into the ski money.....but not yet!
For first-timers, I'm not sure if the issue is the actual cash (it may be) but rather the combination of cost and the fear that they'll hate it, especially if they're being 'encouraged' to give it a go! 'Rich' people whatever that may be,(assuming for a moment they're not also horrifically 'time poor' are maybe better able to go for the luxury bits and bobs that cushion that risk and if they do hate it just say, "Oh wel, tried it, don't like it, won't do it again" and chalk it up to experience, which if your budget only stretches to one holiday may be a bit more difficult to swallow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Agree with Annie. I put off skiing for twenty years on the grounds either I wouldn't enjoy it and resent the money spent or get hooked and therefore want to go every year which would be very expensive. In that sense skiing is very different from other forms of travelling eg. a trip to China is going to be expensive but if you don't enjoy it at least you have seen it and no matter how much you like it you aren't going to want to go back on an annual basis.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I'll go further. "ALL" TO's offer lift passes and anything you need for your holiday within the cost of the trip
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Often at a higher price than you can get them for elsewhere.
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Skiing is a rich persons sport, us poor boys snowboard
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You know it makes sense.
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| masmith wrote: |
| Wayne wrote: |
| Most TO's include hire and pass within the cost of a trip |
Fair enough, now I understand where you're coming from - headline price vs actual price paid.
So arguably, what you should have said was
"Most TO's include hire and pass and ski school and airport taxes and fuel duty and insurance within the cost of a trip" |
They dont include it, it is an extra. A first timer might actually think that the lift pass is included and have a nasty €200 shock when they get there, if they did not know otherwise.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| TotallyBoard wrote: |
| Skiing is a rich persons sport, us poor boys snowboard |
I think this is quite an interesting point actually, snowboarding has always had a more affordable image and has no lack of young & skint people scraping together the money for a holiday - and it's no different in terms of actual cost. (or certainly not for a beginner)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Almost whatever way you look at it - if your are not a local or doing a season/being a ski bum - it is pretty costly per hour spent on the snow or per run.
But lots of sports aren't cheap.
It's not a rich persons sport though, any more than smoking 20 a day (as paulio points out) or drinking 2 pints a day is a rich persons habit.
It is a choice. But people with more money may get to make more choices.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm a right skinflint. Pack my own lunch then take the tube to meet my Austrian mates, get driven to the mountain in their company car (no petrol/diesel costs) then go ski touring (no lift ticket). Snowboarding is too expensive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother,
| Quote: |
any more than smoking 20 a day (as paulio points out) or drinking 2 pints a day is a rich persons habit.
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A skier who smokes and drinks in apres has to be rich as he/she scores all 3!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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firebug, someone knicked that from a chain gang!
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Mosha Marc, yep - love to see someone with that try to explain to a US customs man that they were not on the run from Guantanamo
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Wayne, sorry but what ever way you spin it - headline cost, inclusive cost, etc the items mentioned lift pass/lessons/equipment are firstly over and above what you need on your average summer holiday and secondly they are relatively (compared with other items you *might* rent for a summer holiday - for example a surf board) expensive.
I agree that most TOs offer these items but my orginal point was that since you pay for them it adds to the overal cost of the holiday making it, in general more expensive than a hot holiday which is more likely to involve trunks, t-shirt and flip flops to get you where you'll spend most of the day.
In my opinion what ever way you examine a ski holiday it's very likely to be more expensive than an equivalent (if there is such a thing) summer break. So could therefore very hard for a complete novice, with no idea what to expect, to justify on cost alone the outlay for skiing. Of course many people will try for the experience, novelty, or because someone they know skis. But none of that makes it significantly cheaper.
| Quote: |
The days when ski suit hire meant getting some old tatty gear that hadn't been washed are long gone. There are plenty of places where you can hire good quality ski suits for a small fraction of the cost of buying.
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Cheaper thaen buying I'm sure - but my point was that it is still a cost which people might be put off by.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A key consideration is that - as the OP has confessed - she wouldn't want to give up her main summer holiday. As long as people keep thinking that the ski holiday (which IS expensive, however you cut it) is a "second holiday" then the attitude that people can't afford to go skiing is likely to prevail - you do have to have a fair bit of disposable income to do two fairly substantial package holidays in a year, especially with a family.
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johnnyh,
We are talking about a sport!
In that sense whoever want to play has to have gears. Are the gears in skiing only for the rich?
I can think of sailing with a yacht is a sport for the rich? Polo is another one but that doesn't stop a person to play water polo if he/she can't afford to feed a horse 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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saikee, erm I don't think I understood anything you posted then. I'll try with what I can though . .
Skiing is a sport and a skiing holiday is to most people a holiday in which they do some sport. "The gears in skiing" I assume you mean the stuff you use, well you need some money to either buy or hire it. Not necessarily rich to have have access to it but willing to spend the cash I guess.
Water polo isn't played with a horse or a yatcht is it!!!?? Although would be interesting if it was.
I do actually know lots of people who sail but who are not rich, but they sail for sport (racing rather than cruising). It's expensive to own a boat, but you can do races in smaller craft for not much money. My son sails in small Optimist dingys which actually cost less than a pair of skis. But yes, big yachts are certainly sport for the rich.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| masmith wrote: |
| "Most TO's include hire and pass and ski school and airport taxes and fuel duty and insurance within the cost of a trip" |
No, not all include insurance. We used to, but don't any more as TO's now need to be authorised by the FSA to do this.
But we do include everything else such a the 3 reams of A4 paper that arrived today, the server charges for the webs site, the motorway toll fees to get the vehicles to resort, the postage for the confirmations that we send out, the office telephone bills and council business rates, payment to native.co.uk to recruit temp staff, etc, etc. Oh and we also have to supply hotels, lift passes, etc from the cost of the ski holiday. |
but most TO's do offer the option of insurance. So going back to the point raised, the majority of UK TO's do offer a holiday package which excludes items such as lift pass and ski hire - these are options, yes they can be budgeted for in the overall cost of the holiday, but they are not included in the price of the holiday offered by the TO.
There are of course some TO's that successfully buck the trend, this one for example
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| masmith wrote: |
So going back to the point raised, the majority of UK TO's do offer a holiday package which excludes items such as lift pass and ski hire - these are options, yes they can be budgeted for in the overall cost of the holiday, but they are not included in the price of the holiday offered by the TO.
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Sorry I assumed were talking about ski holidays here.
| Kel wrote: |
| They don’t include it, it is an extra. A first timer might actually think that the lift pass is included and have a nasty €200 shock when they get there, if they did not know otherwise. |
No these ain't "extras"
OK can we put this to bed once and for all.
If there is anyone reading this that has never been on a skiing holiday and doesn't know anyone who has ever been on a skiing holidau, please read this.
You need a lift pass to get the chair lifts, cable cars, etc unless you want to walk up each slope before you ski down
You need either ski hire or your own equipment for which, which most airlines will charge you to take on the plane.
You will need a transfer from the airport unless you're going to ski up and down the escalators or you hire a car, or use public transport.
You need food or you will die. This will normally be taken in the hotel or you can buy some from a shop.
You will need some other "gear". Goggles, ski socks, gloves, etc
None of the above are optional extras. You MUST have em.
The Holiday package that some TO’s offer shows as option extras thing like
Lift Pass – sometime as there are different type of passes available.
Ski Hire – as some people take their own equipment
If this is your 1st ever ski holiday and you don’t know anyone who has ever been on a holiday I am sure that you will be able to ask questions here about the “stuff” you need.
But NOTE
On a ski holiday (which contrary to popular option is not that more much costly than a comparable summer holiday – I know as we run both) you should NOT look at the headline price advertised. Work out what the full cost will be and take this as the cost of the holiday – not what the advert used as grabber to get your interest.
But most of all - have a brill time when you get there (where ever it is you're going 
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne, For the last 5 years we have been joined on our 'skiing' holidays by at least one person who has not needed a lift pass, ski hire or any of that stuff, beacuse they do not ski. You only need them if you intend to ski, hence they are options.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
sailing with a yacht is a sport for the rich
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not with my "yacht" it isn't. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wayne, I do think you're right in the sense that for most people the cost of the holiday must include all the things you need to ski with. I can see why there's flexibility in this as you may not require a whole area pass etc.
Like many people, I sometimes cost out a holiday based on the initial PP price (which is normally the flight/transfer/accommodation). I do this so I feel better and I can argue that the trip will be in budget. I'm then usually forced to calculate the true cost which is often another 50% once everything is included.
It makes marketing sense not to spell out the cost of everything especially since some people will want different things or at least different levels of things (skis for example).
It's still not a cheap holiday though, what ever way I add it and whoever's calculator I use.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| masmith wrote: |
| Wayne, For the last 5 years we have been joined on our 'skiing' holidays by at least one person who has not needed a lift pass, ski hire or any of that stuff, beacuse they do not ski. You only need them if you intend to ski, hence they are options. |
Like I took my 73 year old Mother a few years ago who had no intention of going anywhere near a pair of skis, come to think of it if she did it would possibly have been free at that age. So Wayne that blows your point totally out of the water.
I picked up a new car last month, cost the company I work for the thick end of £20k. Guess what the petrol light was on, I needed to fill it up, its an extra, same thing. Need petrol to move a car just like you need a lift pass to go up the mountain, but it aint included.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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On many of the ski hols I have been on there has been a non-skier in the party. Or someone who just wants a little potter and buys a points pass. Or someone who isn't too sure and just gets a pass for the first day then gives up. Or whatever. I can't claim to have come across all the TOs in the business but NONE of the ones I've used, or whose brochures I've perused at 3 am have ever included a ski pass in the price. Though none have made it difficult to find out what the price would be, either.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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What ever sport you do, if you have to ask how much it costs, you cannot afford it!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Having never been on a skiing holiday I don't know what the costs are.
As far as skiing being expensive, or a rich person's sport, I would have to say that it is to a certain extent but that if you are passionate about something then you make it happen, whether it is skiing, motor sports, riding, sailing or any number of other 'expensive' hobbies.
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Wow, all these working class people who made it the hard way. I'm truly effing humbled.
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I started ice climbing by making my own axes and climbing in a market stall purchased waxproof with a 5 quid cagoule over it. Do I win a prize?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Cheap ski hol inc. flights and transfers £295. Ski/boot/pole hire £80. Clothes from Aldi/TX Max etc £60. Food and booze... what you make it. Go figure.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| I started ice climbing by making my own axes and climbing in a market stall purchased waxproof with a 5 quid cagoule over it. Do I win a prize? |
Luxury! In my day we put on an extra cardi and stuck some segs in us boots.
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FAQ
