Women ski instructors

A snowHead

For me, it was a magic carpet lift in the beginners area, freshly waxed skis, and that horrible "I'm sliding backwards" feeling, quickly followed by a miffed local snowboard instructor who was on the receiving end of my frantic attempt to stay on-board, which i did, just.

Later in the day it was quite funny to see one of the local instructors actually fall off the thing Laughing

A snowHead

easiski,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Er....didn't Alison Hargreaves "solo" Everest....without oxygen?? And then successfully climbed K2 (tragically killed during a storm on the decent).

I think the term "be all you can be" applies here....regardless of gender.

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MarjMJ, I am asking them, here!

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Wayne, you had some very circular logic throughout this thread.

First, you're the one who started to claim there're few female mountaineers because they're not strong enough.

When other offer example of teams of all women who climbed high peaks, you discount "all female team" as nothing but PC.

Then you discounted a solo female climber by saying she's not in a "team".

So with your logic, any women climbing alone is not in a "team". But if she's in a "all women team", it's artificial & daff. And if she's in a mixed gender team, it's proof women can't climb without man... So they can't win, can they?

After all it is free

This entire thread has ignored one obvious fact: in just about any profession that recruits men and women pretty much equally at entry level, when you get to the top of the tree, women are vastly underrepresented.

In my field, the biological sciences, women undergraduates outnumber men about 60%:40%.

Among graduate students (studying for PhDs) the numbers fall back to about 50-50 or 40-60ish.

As you move through the career grades, the numbers become massively male-dominant, so that there are still relatively few female professors, despite decades of equal-opportunity legislation.

- This pattern is equally true of other walks of life (bankers, accountants, lawyers, medics. etc.) and it reflects the continued tension in our society between the desires of women to produce and nurture children, on the one hand, and to have a high-profile career on the other. Not to mention the ingrained prejudice of the senior (and therefore male-dominated) hierarchies that determine employment and promotion that still holds the glass ceiling firmly in place.

Ski instruction is no different.

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Acacia, good point. If, like me, you don't want/have children the problem still exists because they don't believe you! Very Happy

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Acacia, you just beat me to making the same point, but much more eloquently and cogently argued than I would have done.

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easiski, indeed, though there are women - myself included - who still decide they don't want a high-profile career, even though they don't/won't have children. In other words, they lack ambition, or at least the willingness to sustain that ambition (I retired relatively soon after having reached what could be described as the top of my profession) and that possibly reflects that we are hard-wired to produce and look after children, even if we end up not doing so. At least that's one possible theory...

Acacia, yes very good point. Certainly in my profession (surveying) this is the case, but what is true at the top reflects who was entering the profession 15 - 20 years ago. Now there are lots more women entering the profession than there were 20 years ago, and progressively more going up the ladder.

So yes, there will always be a drop out rate of those women who decide not to return to work or maybe work part time after having children, but I think the numbers will change. Primary reason being that of the couples of my age I know there are very very few who would be able to afford their mortgage on one salary! The cost of housing in the past (even for those now in their 30s and 40s with children) meant the mother giving up work was an option, in the future I think it will be an option only for the very wealthiest. Or conversely the least well off, where the mother was earning less than the cost of childcare prior to having children.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

abc, I don't disagree that there has been, and continues to be, some discrimination against women, but I also think that, for some women, the need and perceived right to produce and nurture, is an over-used excuse to under-achieve!

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A snowHead

Hurtle, you have a point there. Very Happy

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I think there are some differences between ski instructing as a career and other options - for example medicine, law, in which despite the odds being stacked against them, many women have succeeded. I suppose a combination of having to work away from "home" (assuming the prospective instructor is British) and being prepared to work very long and hard for rather a small amount of money and little prospect of a comfortable and well-financed retirement. To be fair, there are also rather few male British ski instructors in the top rank - for some of the same reason. In Alpine villages there are plenty of female ski instructors - not as many as men, but they are hardly a rarity.

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pam w, I was actually going to say the opposite! If you're a career instructor you'll live in resort anyway (at least part of the year), rather than just be doing "seasons" as youngsters do which evidently wouldn't work with a family. I think ski teaching is probably much more family friendly than careers in medicine, law etc as you wouldn't be working such long hours. A Swiss instructor friend of mine recently had a baby, she worked up until about 7 months!! (with the tiny kids on nursery slope, so not on her skis in latter stages). She is now a full time mum in summer (her partner has a year round career) and a ski teacher in winter, currently grandparents are childminding whilst she works, but that is only until her daughter starts school.

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fatbob, in my A-Level Biology class there were definitely more girls than boys, I think I can only remember 3 boys in the class actually, in my A-Level Physics class there was only me and 2 other girls and the rest of the class were boys, and in A-Level Maths there were more boys than girls but only by a few. I'm not sure of the reasons why not many girls chose Physics because there were girls in my Maths class who were more than capable of doing both.

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beanie1, yes, no problem at all for Alpine based ski instructors on their own home territory - plenty of extended family around to look after kids etc etc. The last female French instructor I skied with had 2 kids and pointed out one of them in a class with a colleague, on a Saturday morning. In the summer she made cheese. But my point was that ski teaching is hardly "family friendly" for UK based families. How many instructors earn enough to keep their families in resort on one income? And how many ski instructors' partners want to spend the winter in a cramped apartment with children? My son shared an apartment in Tignes with a top qualified BASI instructor who was working constantly all season. They shared a teeny weeny and very expensive one bed apartment - and took in lodgers from time to time to boost their income. That's fine for someone in their early 20s but hardly a tempting way of life for a prospective partner. "Is it our turn for the bedroom this week darling? And can we get rid of those smelly ski bums who've been dossing under the dining table?"

After all it is free

pam w, you don't have to live like that, and the top levels of ski instructing pay well. Friend of mine earnt enough teaching one private client in Courchevel for 10 days to pay his UK mortgage for the whole year... True if you have children you need a supportive partner, but that is the same for any career to some extent,

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pam w, I see your point and also as I've mentioned elsewhere on this thread the cost involved with actually getting to top level has to be taken into consideration too, because it takes a while to earn back that money you've spent. The same could be said for doing a university degree I know but certainly it is possible to earn more than a top level ski instructor (per year because theirs is across 5-6 months usually) in medicine, law, finance, other health related occupations, sales management etc. It would be reasonable to say they (top level instructors) probably earn more than people doing unskilled or semi skilled jobs though and rightly so, because a lot of training has to be undertaken to get to the top level of course.

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VolklAttivaS5,
It "may" be that female and male lower level ski instructors (L1, L2) look at continuing in the system differently.
From a male point of view there is, many times, just a desire to continue to the next course either with a view to "getting the badge" or just as an appraisal of their ability.
But it "may" be that female teachers will take a longer view and consider the overall outcome, ie. see the continuation as a career choice, and they decide against it.

Do women see going on courses as career training, where men see it as ski training ? I don't know the answer.

pam w, Spot on as usual.

beanie1, Your friend would be unusual. The odd wealthy client (and then only in places like Courcheval of course) do not make an annual income. What would I do with my regular repeat clients if I said 'Oh, sorry, I've got a rich person who's going to pay for all my time that week - can't help you'? To put it in perspective: my turnover last year was around £30,000, (I've never seen any point in being coy about money) but that is TURNOVER. We did the summer camps and now I don't have ANY work for 3 weeks.... I wouldn't say it was well paid. I can't afford to hurt myself because I wouldn't be able to work, I can't be ill, and I have no pension.

I'm not complaining - it's my choice, and I couldn't consider doing anything else - but the truth of the matter is that it costs a fortune to do all the courses (not to mention the hard work), there are no grants or student loans, and in the end you have to live away from family, work very hard - wait till you've done a few weeks back to back at 7-8 hours a day, quite possibly for 5 months with only about 3 days off - and for not much of an income. To put it in perspective though, my sister is a technician at a school and I don't suppose she touches £20K for full time work (no hols like teachers) and keeping the kids safe from themselves and teachers who want to use bench saws the wrong way or the wrong welder on the wrong type of metal etc. etc.

All of this has nothing to do with women staying the course though IMO. Just a bit of background. I'm often amazed at how this idea that ski teachers (particularly in france) earn shedloads of money, is propogated. I still think that most female ski teachers just find it too hard to go against the grain to get to the level required.

You know it makes sense.

easiski, maybe he is unusual, but he still says he's better off working as an instructor in France, than he is in the UK. Like you say though, the work is erratic with no security, so wouldn't suit everyone.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Yes, benefits are another thing I thought of last night. I don't know if a teacher employed by a huge ski school like ESF would have the benefit of a company pension scheme that their employer contributes to as well as themselves, and possibly sick pay, but I'd have thought that the majority of ski teachers that work in France are self employed and work alone and have no benefits at all like all self employed, or, they are self employed but work as a director of a ski school with others and then they split the net profit between them. Or, they could work for a ski school but still be self employed or employed depending on how the ski school does things. If they are employed then it could be that the ski school may offer a group stakeholder pension scheme but I would have thought that only the employee would contribute to it rather than the employer as well. In all of those cases they have to fund their own retirement provision, and make provision for themselves in the case of accident or sickness. I don't know the ins and outs of individual arrangements, but I wouldn't be surprised if the above was true. I think it's bloomin' hard work when you think about it.

Maybe Wayne is right in saying that perhaps females take a more long term view and see the continuation as a career choice and after doing the first level or two think "Nah".

A snowHead

VolklAttivaS5, Most instructors in france, including ESF and ESI are self-employed and the ski schools are run as a collective. When you're fully qualified and have been there for a while you can be voted a 'permanent' which allows you a share of the profits. Otherwise you just get an hourly rate (same for everyone at each stage). therefore most are entirely on their own WRT to insurance and pension etc. We do get good rates through the unions, but still - at my age it's not practical. The exceptions to the ski school setup, generally are the british schools, who mostly seem to employ instructors.

This is part of the reason why my ambition is to drop dead while teaching one day - not very nice for the class but no pension requirements! Laughing

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easiski, hmmm yes I can see the attraction of dropping dead compared to maybe 30 years after reaching age 65 on a much reduced income Laughing

Mind you, ski instructing aside it is well known in the UK that a lot of people have got inadequate pension provisions unless they have been fortunate enough to have a good employer scheme quite early on and have done plenty of years to build up a fair sized pot, or, have made investments in other ways.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The worst thing about teaching skiing is having to make enough money during the summer so you can afford to teach again next season! And this is true for either gender.

In my experience, there are less female instructors at the top because of the aggressiveness required to pass the ski exams, the females that fail tend to not be aggressive enough - which worries me because I'm not an aggressive skier but I'd like to be fully qualified with a goal of becoming an examiner. But it could also be true for men as well - a friend failed L3 this year because he was not aggressive enough (obviously skied like a girl - try telling that to Julia Mancuso Razz

)

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pollittcl, Interesting that you see the same thing from the other side of the pond. However it's slightly different in europe where we can and do earn enough while doing the job, but need to save enough to get us through the summer. Shocked

This year I made very sure to have enough in the bank at the end of the season to pay the mortgage until November (although I'm eating into it by not having any work at the moment). However that did mean no LPG for my van and no big expenses on the house either. Sad

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easiski, I wish I was able to save enough to get me through the summer, but the reality is I'm lucky if I make enough during the season to pay rent and living expenses for just the winter months. Shocked

It's expensive to live in the mountains, but I'd rather be doing this than anything else! snowHead

And with tips and babysitting I do usually make a profit for the season. The summer can be hard for me - I can't imagine what it's like for people who have a mortgage to pay year round.

If I'm every fully qualified I'll make more money, but that goes around to the aggressivemess factor again - I don't think I'm aggressive enough so L3 cert is going to be hard for me.

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pollittcl, I'm sure you can do it one way or another. L3 is not ISTD, so the requirement shouldn't be unattainable. If you get a chance try to do a bit of work with Fastman and I'm sure he'll help. I know IIRC that you're not int he same neck of the woods - but the trip would surely be worthwhile.

Yeah - mortgage and only me to pay it - runs until I'm 70! Crying or Very sad

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Here in the US my observations have been that the percentage of female instructors fall slightly below that of the gender ratios in the general skiing public. I suppose it could partially be attributed to the intimidation factor of having to compete with men for a spot on the squad.

As far as selections of candidates here, it has much to do with looks and personality. That goes for men and women. I've heard many a high ranking PSIA examiner/director say, "we can teach em to ski later". The nature of ski school lessons over here are that most are one time shots, so schmoozing clients goes farther than actually providing a quality lessson and guidance that might lead to a long term impact on their skiing skills. Sad, in my eyes, but true. So the superficials of pearly white smiles and hot bods goes a long way. And while the looks/personality factor goes for both genders, I have to say that I've seen it carry much heavier weight with the women. I've seen selection processes take place first hand, where women who couldn't ski their way out of a paper bag were hired for nothing more than the opportunity to add pretty new prey in the locker room. I guess we shouldn't be shocked,,, why would we thinking things would be different in skiing than they are anywhere else in life?

Of course truly talanted women come along too, and they generally write their own ticket onto the squad and ascend up the ranks, if that is their goal. It's quite easy over here, as the ranks are not well stocked with talent to begin with. These talanted women usually come out of the racing community, and my race programs have over the years produced many of these ladies who have gravitated to instructing and coaching at a high level. Real talant can generally call it's own shots, regardless of the gender.

One comment I want to add here for the ladies in the audience. Don't feel as a woman you have to be inherently intimidated on the slopes by the boys. Any woman can ascend to the top rung of this sport if they have a mind to. Yes, ANY WOMAN! You can become more skilled than 99 percent of the male recreational skiing community. Many men try to get by on their brawn, not focusing on real skill development, and end up skiing like hacks. Ladies, you're the ones not afraid to stop along the road and ask for directions, and that innate trait is your advantage. With real skill development you can effortlessly ski circles around the muscle bound bone heads trying to horse their way down the mountain. This is not just a pie in the sky pep talk I'm spewing here. I speak from the experience of helping countless women over the years reach that level. It's plain and simple fact.

pollittcl, PSIA level 3 is not out of the reach of anyone, male or female, if they really want it. It's not so much having to have balls to the walls aggression, t's really more a matter of just developing your skills. As that happens, your skiing will look more aggressive to observers, yet feel more safe and controlled to you. Strange yet true, because skills breed confidence, and confidence breeds speed. As easiski suggested, I'd be happy to help you realize your goals in any manner I can. I actually have a number of PSIA instructors who are currently using my program to achieve their skiing and certification goals.

After all it is free

skimottaret, Laughing

Met a friend of yours from Mottaret today - Philippe from ESF - does parapenting at ADH in summer.

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FastMan, I'd be grateful for any help with L3 - I should be attempting it within the next 2 seasons. Thank-you.

I agree with your observations on the hiring of women for ski school - and it seem as though it's the young pretty ones who can't stand the very male environment in the locker room, so they don't last more than a couple of seasons although snowboard instructors seem to stay longer. Shocked

In our ski school as a woman you have to be willing to teach kids, although we don't do kids groups, which some women don't want to do. It usually takes a few seasons before you're accepted enough to teach the women's program, and it helps if you're L2 or L3 - so if you want work it's going to be with the kids, if you get any work at all, especially during a slow season like this last one.

Help!!

Women ski instructors

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