 Poster: A snowHead
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docsquid, I was thinking it would be ideal for you too, especially as it will enable you to teach higher standard skiing without worrying about the altitude thing!
I have also heard that it is coming in very soon and it just needs enough people to get started on it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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VolklAttivaS5, it would be great for me. I'm still looking at doing the Inspired to Ski courses in either Tignes or Morzine or Courchevel, and more mountain skiing, but it means I can get to Level 2 for UK purposes, and take my time to reach full Level 2 at a later date by doing a conversion to full Level 2. I'd still like to do this for personal satisfaction, but I'd not use the all mountain elements in teaching.
Ah well...better go and get some dinner...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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docsquid, good idea.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| docsquid wrote: |
| Having just come in on this, the "indoor" Level 2 qualification would seem to be absolutely ideal for me - I have no desire whatsoever to teach in the mountains, but would like to be able to teach higher standard stuff indoors. |
I didn't think the L2 qualification covered teaching of a higher standard than the L1 course. It just required you to perform the Central Theme demos more consistently and to score a point or two higher on BASI's six-point assessment scheme. As far as I'm aware the course curriculum for both L1 and L2 is the same, and neither go into much coverage of teaching beyond the Central Theme.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, really? Must have changed since I did it then. One of our two lessons was beyound the central theme - I did crossover / crossunder, others did things such as influence of core strength, steeps, bumps etc.
Also, the technical element must go further for a L2 - if L1 can be delivered in the UK then it can't even touch on steeps, variables etc, whereas L2 does?
Which is why i don't really understand the logic behing this L2 for the UK...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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beanie1, yes, the real difference that I found between L1 and L2 was the demands made on my own performance as a skier. There was a considerable step up in terms of personal performance, which is why I also don't understand the logic for this indoor part-L2 award. We didn't do any teaching drills beyond the Central Theme (although we talked extensively of how the Central Theme was the foundation for our own performance skiing). In fact, I did more teaching stuff on my L1 course than I did on my L2 course.
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rob@rar,
| Quote: |
| In fact, I did more teaching stuff on my L1 course than I did on my L2 course. |
The L1 course is taken without the need for previous experience, as you know 70 hours teaching shadowing needs to be done before the L2 course. I think the Trainers assume that you've some idea what teaching is about before you arrive. The sessions and evening lectures is them checking on your understanding. However, the time spent on teaching within the L2 course has now been increased.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| The sessions and evening lectures is them checking on your understanding. |
Yes, we had lots of discussion around the teaching of CT, but very little of this covered any new ground that we hadn't covered at L1. We weren't expected to develop a greater understanding of teaching any skills beyond the CT. The only progression that I was aware of from a teaching point of view, IIRC, was to be graded 4s and 5s rather than 3s and 4s on BASI's six point scale.
I think if doscquid assumes that L2 will equip her to teach skiing more advanced than CT she might be disappointed. It certainly wasn't my experience last season.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, the reason I want to do the UK Level 2 is to develop my own performance as a skier to the requirements of Level 2 standard, albeit within the confines of an indoor/artificial slope. That is, improve on-piste performance, and be able to teach people who can already do plough parallel and basic parallel parts of the central theme to develop their abilities further. I would still like to do full Level 2, but recognise that my breathing limitations at altitude may prevent me from achieving this, not because I can't do the elements well enough, but simply because I can't do them well enough for long enough at high altitude to pass the assessment.
Plus, not everybody wants to go to the mountains to teach, or is able to do so. In an ideal world, I'd like to do this, but recognise it isn't possible because I can't live outside the UK (couldn't get any health insurance and need constant medical treatment). I'm sure other people have other reasons for only wanting to teach in the UK such as family, other jobs (skiing being a part-time job), and many others.
If that is the case, then it seems sensible to have a progression to a higher level of personal piste performance as an instructor, to perform the central theme stuff to a higher standard, and to be able to develop the central theme to bring in other elements of control of speed and line (beyond just making basic parallel turns) within the confines of indoor or dry slopes. Doing Level 1 at the Snowdome opened my eyes to just how much it is possible to do, or teach, in these environments if my skills were up to it.
So I can see the logic behind the UK Level 2 course, and would love to have a pop at it, if it were to be run.
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| docsquid wrote: |
| rob@rar, the reason I want to do the UK Level 2 is to develop my own performance as a skier to the requirements of Level 2 standard, |
But doesn't this proposed new course specifically exclude the development of personal performance, instead concentrating on CT issues? I don't see how an indoor environment can develop personal performance up to L2 standard - there just isn't the right terrain to do that. L2 includes bumps, steeps, variable conditions and specifies the steepness of terrain which must be used for personal performance. All this makes it impossible for this aspect of the L2 course to be delivered in a snowdome, I would have thought.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 23-06-08 10:15; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| docsquid wrote: |
| be able to teach people who can already do plough parallel and basic parallel parts of the central theme to develop their abilities further. |
As far as I'm aware that isn't included in the L2 curriculum. It only covers up to CT, i.e. basic parallel turns but not beyond.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, does it not? Half of our teaching in L2 was "beyond the central theme" - helping to develop our peers' performance as well as our own. My very first week teaching I had a group of good intermediates and was teaching them short turns and how to carve - this was for the same ski school with whom I did my training.
I think a L2 / BASI 3 is expected to be able to teach well beyond basic parallel - otherwise you'd spend all your time teaching beginners - the central theme can be covered by most in a week or two.
Developing your own personal performance in L2 teaches you how to teach beyonf the Central Theme does it not?
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rob@rar, I don't know what is included in the proposed new course. However, if it is more CT stuff, then that is fine. It seems to me that it is possible to develop your competence at demonstrating and teaching CT stuff beyond L1 standard within the confines of the Snowdome and I think you can develop your own performance to a certain degree within these confines too - getting up to a 5 or 6 on the BASI scoresheet at all the elements of the CT, plus piste performance of short turns and long carved turns. You could certainly develop some freestyle skills if that were included (and I don't know if it is or not). I feel I have a lot more to learn that could be learned in a Snowdome or on a dry slope beyond Level 1 standard.
That isn't to say I won't be getting as much coaching, instruction and training as I possibly can in all elements of ski performance in this coming winter. However that will give all concerned a better idea of whether I can go to full Level 2, or whether I should confine myself to Level 2 UK version.
Personally, I am very glad that there will be an option of developing the relevant elements of personal ski performance and teaching further for those who can't or don't want to teach in the mountains. There must be a lot of Level 1 instructors out there who can't afford the time, money or can't leave the UK for long enough to achieve full Level 2. Why should they not have an option of developing their skills (personal and teaching) further? They can then provide a higher standard of teaching for people who learn in the UK, at least part of the time, and have a qualification to recognise that they have taken the time and trouble to do this.
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You know it makes sense.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Developing your own personal performance in L2 teaches you how to teach beyonf the Central Theme does it not? |
Yes, absolutely, but in my L2 course this was developed exclusively in the context of personal performance without much reference to how to teach those skills. The remit for our teaching demos was very much restricted to CT progression.
If you can't develop your personal performance beyond the CT because of terrain limitations in snowdomes I don't think that the new proposed course can offer much in terms of personal development or understanding teaching beyond the CT the two issues that docsquid is rightly keen to develop. I think that the way BASI describes the new course will be important if they going to avoid having a number of disappointed clients.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| docsquid wrote: |
| Why should they not have an option of developing their skills (personal and teaching) further? |
No reason at all, other than we don't have the terrain available to do that indoors in order to complete aspects of the current L2 qualification. I have no problem with developing a higher standard of qualification for people who teach exclusively indoors/on plastic but I think there is scope for disappointment and confusion if that qualification is somehow mixed up with the current L2. I'm simply questioning how the things that you (and I) wanted from the L2 qualification can be delivered indoors. I don't think it is possible to get anywhere near the level of demand that a mountain environment provides.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, totally agree. And I'm still being told this info has got muddled up somehow and there will be no Alpine L2 in the UK! However Spyderman, is very confident it's correct so I'm going to wait and see what they come up with.
I just wish they'd update the BASI website more quickly - that coaching booklet skimottaret published isn't even on there yet, and they're still giving out of date info on the course structure.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| I just wish they'd update the BASI website more quickly - that coaching booklet skimottaret published isn't even on there yet, and they're still giving out of date info on the course structure. |
Indeed. I want to plan some things for next season but it's difficult without seeing the course directory 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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beanie1,
BASI L2
'Outcome
Successful students will be able to ski to a competent level, and have the knowledge, ability and understanding to safely teach alpine skiing up to and including parallel standard on marked pistes. '
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Perfect! Thanks, I hadn't spotted that. It's just what I needed to confirm some dates.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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ski, yes - but parallel standard is very broad. Basic parallel to short turns, to steeps, carving etc. It doesn't say - students will be able to teach up to basic parallel, which is what I would expect it to say if it stopped at the completion of the Central Theme, and essentially would mean only beginners.
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beanie1,
ISIA
'On successful completion of all training, students will have developed their technical competence and understanding of the underlying principles of ski teaching. The Ski Teacher (ISIA) licence qualifies the student to teach up to parallel skiing and beyond. This includes techniques and tactics for bumps, steeper terrain, higher speeds and variable conditions within marked pistes and off piste on marked routes. Individuals may be required to resit all or part of the modules.
'
So L2 = Parrallel turns on piste.
Mind you - working in a ski school as a newly-qualified L2, mostly you'd teach beginners anyway. Also what happens in a ski school may not reflect your quals....
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ski, I think it's a bit vague with the only real difference being that L2 specifies only on marked pistes, and ISIA names bumps and steeps - but L2 doesn't sepcifically exclude these. I guess in a way that's the way it should be. Every instructor and their ability is different, and as our trainer said when we passed, we could then go away and learn how to teach skiing. So L2 gives you a method (Central Theme) to progess people to parallel. There is no method given for teaching beyond the Central Theme (how could you learn this in two weeks?), but the very process of improving your own personal performance and giving feedback to other course members which is part of the L2, gives you the skills and techniques needed to teach beyond the Central Theme. Certainly the view our chief instructor took with newly qualified L2s, is that having just spent several weeks working on their own personal performance they should be more than capable of teaching intermediates.
Most of the L2s I know teaching full time get a good cross section of levels - though admittedly their first season may have been biased towards beginners. From what I've heard if you turn up to do your ISIA only ever having taught beginners, you'd struggle.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar,
| Quote: |
No reason at all, other than we don't have the terrain available to do that indoors in order to complete aspects of the current L2 qualification........... I'm simply questioning how the things that you (and I) wanted from the L2 qualification can be delivered indoors. I don't think it is possible to get anywhere near the level of demand that a mountain environment provides.
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On a L2 course, you dont have to really 'perform' on the strands beyond the central theme to pass, although you do have to show a certain ability that can prove you can reach an accepted limit, which can be done by exercises. Even as far as doing bumps exercises on a green/blue run.
I have had the privilige training with a junior canadian moguls team a couple of years ago, and alot of there preperation was conducted on a blue run, learning the movements. No where near a mogul. So bumps "simulation" could quite easily be done in a snowdome, as could variables, which is basically skiing in variable snow conditions.
As i have only been in a snowdome twice, correct me if im wrong, but the conditions were always variable, and with some creative thinking and a little work from those on the course, the terrain could be bumped/iced/softened up. Then when skied it would almost certainly be variable.
The tough one is steeps, but again, excercises can be used for this which include a high skill level, and would show the ability of the student to perfrom to the required level.
All that has to be remembered, is that exercises are not a way of skiing, just a way of improving said skiing. And although all this could be done in a snowdome, there are still the emotional and phsycoligical threads that wouldnt be reached. 
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| freestyleandy wrote: |
| On a L2 course, you dont have to really 'perform' on the strands beyond the central theme to pass, although you do have to show a certain ability that can prove you can reach an accepted limit, which can be done by exercises. Even as far as doing bumps exercises on a green/blue run. |
That's not my experience. My bumps runs for my L2 were performed on a black run. The steeps were done to either side (ie the steeper sections) of the Bouquetin piste on Mt Chery in Les Gets, which apparently is one of the steepest pistes in the PdS. Variables saw us ski all sorts of conditions, crust, perfect powder, heavy slush, etc. On piste performance was tested on significantly steeper terrain than available in a snowdome, and benefitted hugely from the ability to do long runs for things like blender drills
BASI criteria specify that you have to get at least a grade 4 (late practice phase) for steeps, bumps and variables. To my reading that is actual skiing in those strands, not just simulations and exercises. I'm sure that snowdomes have their place in instructor development (I did a lot of my shadowing in one, and am considering doing the the L1 Alpine Development Coach qualification in one). I'm just not persuaded they provide a suitable environment for doing anything other than CT demos and basic on-piste drills.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar,
I think that the Trainer that we both had, if you go by the book, the terrain that he chose was beyond that, that BASI require for L2. Makes the pass feel even better, Eh?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, oh good glad I've been of some use then! What are you looking at doing next season then out of interest?
I have "eyed" the L2 courses in March in Mayrhofen and Meribel and the early April one to Andorra, in case I'm ready for L2 by then..... I will see how I get on as next season progresses as by the time we get to end of January 2009 even I will have had a fair few weeks practice and some tuition built in within those weeks with Inspired to Ski too in December. When I get to mid Feb if I feel ready then I'll see if there's any room on any of those L2 courses..... If I'm not quite ready then I might leave it until the July and go to Hintertux or leave it until the following season even.
Will you have done your 200 teaching hours by next season to be doing some more ISIA modules?
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The UK senior instructor award is the second level in the BASI UK scheme (domestic). Feedback from slope operators has been that they want a further training and award pathway for their UK based staff. The UKSI will include require a higher level of understanding, teaching and skiing ability than the level 1. Basically it is a Level 2 without the variables and bumps. During the winter season many alpine L2 or ISIA instructors are away or don't teach in the artificial environment, hence a gap in the skills sector. Many ski centres don't have the luxury of alpine L2, ISIA or ISTD in their snowsports school. The UKSI will be a person who has undertaken further training and experience and who be considered "senior" in a UK based snowsports school. They may take the higher end lessons or mentor newly qualified, or aspirant L1 instructors for example.
In the UK there has always been a structure through the HNGB for a range of qualifications (Club instructor, ASSI and development coach). When BASI set out to offer UK awards they always intended to do a proper job. Now you can take a L1, UKSI and a development level 1 all in the UK. In skiing terms the UKSI will be skiing at the same level as the HNGB new level 3 coach.
There will be a path way from UKSI to alpine L2 (cant give details on that right now) for people who want to use it as a progression. However the UKSI is a stand alone UK award.
The current Alpine L2 can teach in the mountain resort within the piste markers. This could include a whole range of strands beyond the CT. The ISIA award allows for teaching off piste within a resort, and on marked routes (each country will have a different law on this). ISIA teacher will also poses the skills to run a race training session, staff training etc. A lot of your remit as a ski teacher will be decided by your boss and the laws!!
This year a few UKSI courses will be ran on demand from the specific centres that feel a need for them. Early feedback has been very positive about such an award.
Important to remember its purpose and remit. For those who don't teach in the UK its will not change your award. For those who do teach in the UK it offers further educational opportunities.
Pete Silver Gillespie
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You know it makes sense.
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gilleski, thanks for the clarification about the UKSI. I agree that there is demand for progression for UK-based instructors who for whatever reason don't want to do the full L2 award. However, I think the choice of title is potentially misleading for clients who enquire about these things.
VolklAttivaS5, I've just competed my first module of the ISIA qualification (Common Theory) and will do the Mountain Safety course and most probably the race coach levels 1 and 2 next season. I probably won't do the Tech and Teach modules until the following season. At some point I'll have to pick up a second discipline and do that to BASI L1, although I'm not sure whether I'll go for boarding, telemark or adaptive.
Spyderman, if that's the case I feel it's good preparation as I could into ISIA, but I still can't see how something approaching a BASI L2 qualification can be done in a snowdome.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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gilleski, thank you for the clarification.
Do you know how long the indoor L2 course will be and when people can start taking the indoor one?
How long is the conversion course afterwards if people so desire to convert it to the alpine L2?
Will it be available in all Snowdomes or will it be rolled out in a particular one first?
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Poster: A snowHead
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gilleski, thanks for confirming and clarifying, may I suggest Landgraaf? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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gilleski, thank you very much for all your clarification about UKSI.
I have to say this is exactly what I think I need and would like to work towards, although I'm also going to get as much development in all mountain skiing as well, and hope to convert to full Level 2 in due course. Obviously I need more teaching hours first, but I am trying to get these sorted out at the Snowdome in Tamworth.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The UKSI may be of interest to a number of friends who've been trying for the last few years to get their ASSI. The only reason they've not succeeded is that SSE keep cancelling the courses  I think I'll be passing the info on when it becomes official.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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RobW, ASSI is pitched at the same level as BASI L1.
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VolklAttivaS5, We had had a request from a slope to run the first UKSI. It will probaly work like that in the first year.
slikedges, Langraff sounds ideal, is the beer cheap?
beanie1, All the info will be in the directory, hopefully it will make it clear. Its not a level 2, its a new award however follows the level 2 format. The work book will be very familiar if you have taken a level 2 course.
ski-chick, Thank you!
RobW, The UKSI is pittched at a higher level than the ASSI, however if your freinds ski at a BASI level 2 standard on the plastic and have some experience this may be the course from them. First they would need to hold a BASI level 1, if they hold a club instructor then they can do a 1 day conversion course.
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FAQ
