 Poster: A snowHead
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Things seem to be getting off track in this thread! My previous post just made the point that kids dont always appreciate the trip/holiday etc. its the parents who are reluctant to change their lifestyle. I'm sure I'll be labelled old fashioned but we decided after one disasterous holiday to switzerland to forego this type of holiday. Spent several years in Ireland - had fab holidays - kids still talk about them and revisit their old haunts with affection. My concern is that parents are so determined to "not let kids ruin their fun" that they deny the fact that kids do bring limitations on your lifestyle.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
it's not like these kids are going to turn out to be criminals and layabouts if they don't get enough time on an aeroplane!!
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Agreed..The same applies if everyone leaves their kid in front of the TV or playstation... Shall it be our attitude from now on then?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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To exxpand the discussion: Why have kids and send them to boarding schools. Apart from parents who have a "wandering" lifestyle and the school gives the kids stability, why have kids and farm them out?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ruthie wrote: |
| Things seem to be getting off track in this thread! My previous post just made the point that kids dont always appreciate the trip/holiday etc. its the parents who are reluctant to change their lifestyle. I'm sure I'll be labelled old fashioned but we decided after one disasterous holiday to switzerland to forego this type of holiday. Spent several years in Ireland - had fab holidays - kids still talk about them and revisit their old haunts with affection. My concern is that parents are so determined to "not let kids ruin their fun" that they deny the fact that kids do bring limitations on your lifestyle. |
Like your kids enjoy their holidays to Ireland...I will be ETERNALLY grateful to my parents for giving me the opportunity to discover skiing from a young age. I feel sure as an adult my son will say the same! It's not the journey they remember, it's the fun they have on holiday. And there's nothing like a skiing holiday to give a healthy, fun activity that the whole family can enjoy together. Who would want to deny families that?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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My only 'bad experiences' travelling with my children in nearly 20 years have been because of others predjudices towards them, and not becasue of their behaviour. 99% of them have happened while travelling in the UK. The only restaurant in a small Devon village which would not allow them in to eat (right up on Dartmoor, so no alternative for miles), several bed and breakfasts. Hotels that would not allow them to eat dinner with us, and we were forced to use expensive room service. Things were 100% better when we went out of the country for our holidays. Perhaps that is why many of us choose to travel with our children abroad, the welcome they receive in this country is cool at best, and often none-exsistent.
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oh8777, and you are not going to be like the majority who find their private health cover will not pay for everything and goes NHS from 75 on?
The answer to your question is that you should be willing to show some tolerance to these kids, because they are going to have to pay for your incontinence aids and anti-dementia drugs. But I think you know this 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Maybe if there's still some kids on flights in my dotage I can borrow their incontinence aids
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What I liked to do was make sure one of the Fridges had a cold or sinus trouble before we booked, then I would ensure that they had no sleep the night before and ensure that at any time they thought about quieting down pinch them. Ahh the fun we had looking to see which pasenger was the most upset, really made our trips to Aus go like a flash.
The OP asked for experience and advice on how to travel with a 14month old, That gives me the impression they are responsible by doing some research. I think some of the narrow minded views on here are prety astonishing. It is not great sitting near a child screaming but its not exactly life threataning. About as nice as sitting next to some apparentley normal 20somethings getting pissed and unable to form a sentance without the F word for 12 hours
My advice for going long haul is pretty basic.
Take lots of the food and drinks your baby is used to for the flight.
Have a drink for take off and landing to help with the ears. In fact some airlines slightly pressurise on the ground so after departure have it handy.
Lots of toys, familliar comforts etc that will distract them, really max out the hand baggage allowance(dont bother with too many papers or books for you)
If they are teathing, dont forget the gel. Our kids liked apple cut up and cooled down. (get the crew to put it in the wine chiller for you )
If you are travelling with your partner stagger your meals so you both get to eat in peace. I have had it a couple of times that when we told the crew this they offered to take the boys for a walk when they had finished serving everyone else and we got to eat together.
Ask at check in for a bulkead seat, some of the cots/baby seats they have now are great. You have baby for take off landing and then they go in the cot for the rest of the flight. Fridge 2 slept all the way from seattle this way when he was 13months
We had two bad flights where one Fridge screamed blue murder on the ground. The second the aircraft started to move he fell asleep. We found that our kids did a lot of sleeping on long haul and it was the other end where you are shattered and they are running round the hotel/appartement ready to go for it was the difficult bit.
It can be done just plan for it and accept that you wont see the movie
good luck
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
My previous post just made the point that kids dont always appreciate the trip/holiday etc.
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I am sure this happens...Adults also get disappointed by a given holiday...
I think this kind of misses the point though...
Most holidays I have taken my kids on have been organised with the FAMILY in mind, i.e. something that suits everyone... Before the arrival of my second daughter, we went to Greece with our eldest..the flights (especially outward) turned into a bit of a nightmare for her (and stressfull for us).. But ask her and all she remembers is the fun, the beach, our great hosts in Zante treating her like a princess with various treats, especially "Anastasia" the waitress playing in the pool with her, the turtles etc etc...No mention of the flight...If we had followed some of the "advice" to be found here, we would have stayed at home just in case we'd temporarily upset fellow travellers, and she would not have all those lovely memories....and all that because of a difficult few hours? minutes even...
But that's a bit a reflection of our society nowadays... People are not ready/do not want to face any difficulties/hardship/incomfort, however you want to name it... As soon as the going is a bit tough, they bail out..even of the reward is greater/worth it...
Yes my kids won't (hopefully) turn into criminals because they haven't been on such or such holiday, yes this country has also plenty to offer in terms of holidays (as keen campers we should know..) but that does not mean we should not give young children the chance to experience all that (and difficult moments are part of the package)..it's all part of life..they'll be the "richer" for it and hopefully will be more aware/tolerant of the world around them...
It's just a shame that some people don't see that and seem to know of no other concept other than themselves...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Gilberts Fridge's advice and recommendations are spot on!
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A 14 month old child isn't going to get any pleasure out of a transatlantic skiing trip. The child would almost certainly prefer to be running around at home playing with some familiar toys.
The only people who stand to benefit are the parents. Three out of four kids will behave perfectly on a long flight, but the fourth child will cause so much misery and sleep deprivation to other passengers that it's not fair to take the risk.
I don't hate kids: I have three of my own and spend as much time as possible with them. I know this is Snowheads, but, for me, skiing was of secondary importance when they were young. I put my travelling on hold until the kids were old enough to genuinely enjoy the trip and mature enough to behave in a way that wouldn't disadvantage others.
That's why I stand by my earlier comment about monumental selfishness. Perhaps some of the people who object to what I said are actually just monumentally selfish.
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You know it makes sense.
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Just to add a little more, as someone who flies regularly for work, about 4-8 flights per month on average in business and economy mainly short haul but some long flights I canot remember the last time time I had a baby scream for an entire flight.
Just did Camaroun there and back twice this month, baby crying on boarding lots of huffing and puffing from the guy next to me but within 20min after take off silence.Pitty his snoring kept me awake most of the 6 hour flight home
live and let live folks
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Jonny Jones,
About the benefits or not of a trip to the children... And I am talking in general here and not focussing/defending specifically on a long haul skiing trip...
My point is you and others seem so focussed on the potential issues with the flight, none of which IMV are exactly torture for the kids even if there might be some uncomfortable moments, that you forget the 7/14/X numbers of days (days..not hours or minutes) of fun and good experience the kids will have in between the two flights....
Well worth the hassle for them (just as much as me) I think... IMV, your way of thinking is indeed the selfish one, but there you go...I don't think anyone will change their mind here..
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| To exxpand the discussion: Why have kids and send them to boarding schools. Apart from parents who have a "wandering" lifestyle and the school gives the kids stability, why have kids and farm them out? |
buggered if i know....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Going to have to bite
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A 14 month old child isn't going to get any pleasure out of a transatlantic skiing trip. The child would almost certainly prefer to be running around at home playing with some familiar toys.
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While I personally wouldn'y go stateside, I think kids would actually get a lot out of a trip. At that age you learn by sight, touch, smell, taste etc - whole heap of new experiences. I know that our little ones loved their trips to France, it was obvious from their faces.
Using the same sort of logic you wouldn't take your kids to the beach either - all that sun, nasty biting crabs etc. I've yet to see a baby/toddler now having a whale of a time (no pun intended) at the beach.
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The only people who stand to benefit are the parents.
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So parents can't have holidays 
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Three out of four kids will behave perfectly on a long flight, but the fourth child will cause so much misery and sleep deprivation to other passengers that it's not fair to take the risk.
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I travelled back from Denver with an obnoxious drunk using the F-word every other word who was causing misery and sleep deprivation for other passengers - I wish he hadn't of taken the risk. unless you can afford a private plane you will almostly certainly find someone annoying on a plane.
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That's why I stand by my earlier comment about monumental selfishness. Perhaps some of the people who object to what I said are actually just monumentally selfish.
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There is a tiny % of people who are truely selfish - they could be parents who are making no effort to control a child, or they could be an adult who should no better. I don't believe many people get on a plane with the sole purpose of annoying their fellow passengers.
Many holiday companies are targetting the 30 somethings with kids but a reasonable disposable income - just look at all the adverts for Florida. As such I'm afraid you'll have to put up with kids on long-haul flights.
Personally I'd hate to live somewhere were it was dictated to me where I could go on holiday.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Totally agree with Jonny Jones' point.
A 14 month old is not going to appreciate the champagne powder in Vail any more than a bunny slope anywhere else in the world. Same goes really for any child below (say) 10. They will have a ball in the snow regardless. This being the case, it just doesn't make sense to me to drag them so far - as he says the only people to gain from the difference are his/her parents, hence it being a bit selfish of them.
I'm not arguing not to go away at all - I can completely see the value of getting kids skiing young, experiencing new environments/people, etc.
But to go so far, when there are many more child-friendly options available seems daft - quite apart from any pain it inflicts on fellow passengers!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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oh8777, US and Canadian ski resort childcare is generally way better than European facilities I have seen. Our eldest had to be dragged to Mark warner creches in VDI, our youngest would hide from us in Lake Louise because he liked it so much. aand then as they do get older they get English speaking ski instructors with low teacher-pupil ratios (often 1:1 or 1:2). Having young kids is a great argument for going to N America.
Come back when you have tried it yourself!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother, I agree totally and, for just the reasons you state, my kids have skiied much more in North America than in Europe. It's just that 14 months is very young.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Joanne Mountainsun wrote: |
| Like your kids enjoy their holidays to Ireland...I will be ETERNALLY grateful to my parents for giving me the opportunity to discover skiing from a young age. I feel sure as an adult my son will say the same! It's not the journey they remember, it's the fun they have on holiday. And there's nothing like a skiing holiday to give a healthy, fun activity that the whole family can enjoy together. Who would want to deny families that? |
Were you a baby when you went on to skiing holidays? How old were you, 18 months? Did you remember crying in a long haul flight to N. America? Or did you enjoy the 9 hour flight and 8 hour jetlag?
To say people should put up with crying baby isn't for the babies. It's the selfish parents talking. The babies don't enjoy the flight. Or else they wouldn't have been crying the first place.
Fellow passengers are annoyed because a human ingrained response to a crying baby is one ought to do something about it to stop them crying, which is get them out of the plane, i.e. NOT get them in there the first place.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 31-01-08 17:50; edited 1 time in total
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| libby wrote: |
So who's done it? How did it go?
Any tips? Car seat in the cabin or not?
Does anyone have experience with specific airlines, especially budget ones like Zoom? |
I bet you didn't expect to open such a large can of worms did you? 
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| stoatsbrother, I agree totally and, for just the reasons you state, my kids have skiied much more in North America than in Europe. It's just that 14 months is very young. |
You'd be surprised, we took both of ours to Austrailia when they were around 4 months. Just got to plan it and get on with it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My little boy is 16 months now, he's been on planes loads of times (granted, never long haul) and the most he's cried for is about five minutes. When he was tiny (first time he was two months old) he just slept all the way. Now he's a bit bigger he's easier to entertain and distract. He babbles a bit, and laughs and wants to get up and have a walk from time to time - but on the whole I don't think he's causing offence to anyone! He absolutely loves the snow and sledging while there, so he's certainly not too young to enjoy it. The worst part about travelling with a child is getting on and off the plane, especially when travelling alone, which I usually am. Generally the journey is fine - I think it's rare for a child to cry for a whole flight!? Isn't it? When I went to Italy at Chrismas he was teething badly - but he sat quite happily sucking on ice cubes off the drinks trolley for most of the time....
You guys who are so dead against it you want to slap them...think - is it REALLY that bad having a child on the plane?????? Really?
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Joanne Mountainsun, depends on whether or not it screams in your earhole, really.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think it's rare for a child to cry for a whole flight!? Isn't it?
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I was on a 12 hour flight when a baby cried for nearly an hour, TWICE!
Fortunately, I was sitting quite far from them and had ear plugs. Can't imagine what their seat-mates felt. (actually, I know how they felt, they all got up and stood at the other hand of the cabin)
I've also been in a short flight of a few hours when a baby in the row behind cried all the way, sometimes louder and sometimes less so. I don't know what's wrong with the baby but I felt sorry for him. Worse, he's got a little sister who's just exhausted from having to sit next to it.
If I want to slap anyone, it's the parent. They didn't even try very hard to comfort him.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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oooooo if this gets people so het up I might have to suggest to Mrs Fridge that we have some more. Our two just draw and watch the movies now for the whole flight, no fun at all.
You can travel long haul very comfortably with babies if you are responsible and plan for it. Its an absolute dodle. The problem is when people are not responsible, be it with their kids, manners, choice of language, alcohol intake or personal hygine. To suggest that travelling with babies is selfish is terrible generalisation, not being resposible in the ways I have just said is the pathetic bit.
Ill say again, never had a baby scream the whole way but I have had to put up with snoring, swearing, drunks and BO for the whole trip
I am sorry but if you worry so much about this then you really need to get out more
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You know it makes sense.
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Jonny Jones, who has so berated long haul with babies, you were one of those who suggested North America!
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He probably suggested NA without realizing you have baby at all! 
Still, it's not baby that matters, it's only CRYING babies. And only the ones who cry non-stop.
A non-stop crying baby is a suffering baby. To bring a baby into suffering just to ski IS selfish.
So, in your European trip, you'll have plenty of chances to get first hand experience on flying with babies. If you found out yours won't suffer on any flight, then you may take him to NA, or even NZ for that matter.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Gilberts Fridge, completely agree with you, although not about having more kids with you. If we're going to ban babies as they may offend lets ban fat people for taking up to much room.
In fact anyone who flies is selfish for burning up all that fuel, warming the environment meaning less snow for me
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| brian, ............... but I suggest that the mere fact that people have managed to breed does not exempt them from showing a bit of consideration to the rest of us. |
I wonder what this really means?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| oh8777 wrote: |
Totally agree with Jonny Jones' point.
A 14 month old is not going to appreciate the champagne powder in Vail any more than a bunny slope anywhere else in the world. Same goes really for any child below (say) 10. |
So my daughter who was willingly taking on the most challenging runs at Lake Louise at the age of 9 must have been a total freek then? Oh no I remember, it is because we had been bringing her here since she was 5 months that she loved it so much that she frequently insisted on skiing when her selfish parents has a rest day.
| oh8777 wrote: |
| They will have a ball in the snow regardless. This being the case, it just doesn't make sense to me to drag them so far |
They will have less of a ball at any age when the conditions are poor and all they have are rocks and ice, which has been our experience when we have tried France during the Christmas holidays. However I'm not sure what your point is, I have managed to keep my children entertained on a day trip to the seaside, does that mean I should never take them any further afield?
| oh8777 wrote: |
| as he says the only people to gain from the difference are his/her parents, hence it being a bit selfish of them. |
Certainly not true. The only reason we first went to Canada was that it was the only place we could find at the time that had appropriate day care for our 5 month old daughter. If there had been something suitable in Europe we would have gone there. We paid more and endured (an endurance because my wife is terrified of flying not because our sleeping daughter was any bother at all) a much longer flight purely to get the best care for her.
| oh8777 wrote: |
I'm not arguing not to go away at all - I can completely see the value of getting kids skiing young, experiencing new environments/people, etc.
But to go so far, when there are many more child-friendly options available seems daft |
So at what distance does it become daft? A trip to France/Switzerland by plane is pretty short, but what about by train or car? Should those be avoided because they are not 'child friendly' or is it really back to not wanting the risk of upsetting other travellers? What about a longer flight to Italy or Spain for skiing or Florida to see Mickey, what is the magic point where we decide that the fun of the holiday is not worth the potential upset of the journey?
| oh8777 wrote: |
| quite apart from any pain it inflicts on fellow passengers! |
How many times are we going to hear this rubbish? I travel a great deal for business, I am a three hour flight from home right now (assuming Chicago is not closed tomorrow because of the couple of inches of snow they are whining about) and I can honestly say that I have never suffered pain or even mild discomfort as a result of children on the plane. I could however think very easily of numerous adults who have made my flight significantly more unpleasant than it should have been for a variety of reasons. I don't travel business class all the time, in fact the majority of my flights are economy, but still I seem to avoid the 'pain' from children. It could be of course that I have been very lucky in my dozen or so flights each year and that oh8777 and others have been very unlucky in their ski trips. But it does make me wonder what comes next, do we ban children from the slopes as well because they might be going to slowly, or from the restaurants because they might dare to cry or laugh, or anywhere else because they don't behave as 'well' as adults? Perhaps we should return to the time when children were seen and not heard or perhaps all children should be left with nannies and other carers so that their parents do not have to take responsibility and show them how to behave in public?
I'm sorry to pick on oh8777 for my quotes, it could have been any of a number of posters here and this is obviously a very devisive subject. However my advice to any parent in this situation is to ask themselves two simple questions:
"Do you think you are a caring parent who will do your best to make the journey as enjoyable for your child as possible?"
"Are you a considerate traveller who will do your best not to offend other travellers?"
If they can honestly answer yes to these two questions then they should go ahead and enjoy the journey and a wonderful holiday. If they can not answer yes to the first question then their problems are deeper than whether or not to take a child on holiday. If they can not answer yes to the second question then unfortunately they belong to a group that is not restricted to parents, but that should not be on a plane at all.
Edited to remove typos I noticed, sorry if there are others, but it is 01:43 here and I am a little tired. I hope I don't snore on the plane tomorrow and upset any babies that may be nearby
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have family in Australia and USA. Their kids, from babies, flew all over the world. Kids adapt. They never had any problem. The only thing to be careful of is that some airlines (I think Continental) will not allow you to put a child in a car seat and then in a plane seat. This may have been changed now, but I remember my sister flying back to Newark once and being refused to do this, even though she'd paid a fare for the baby. Go for it. Happy parents make happy kids.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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solarfish,
Very good post...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="abc
So, in your European trip, you'll have plenty of chances to get first hand experience on flying with babies. If you found out yours won't suffer on any flight, then you may take him to NA, or even NZ for that matter.[/quote]
Good of you to state that the parent "may" take their child. I didn't know they made you the person who gets to make that decision!!!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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nightshift, I think abc was using "may" in the context of "might" rather than "allowed" 
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Have taken kids (we have three) all over the place with us including long haul to Oz and Canada. Even when they were babies (Now 16, 13, 11) Cannot even remember if they cried or not and personally dont care if they did. No parent encourages their children to cry or scream because it is embarasing for them as well, and for those of you who think parents should stay at home, show more consideration for others etc etc etc my advise to you all is turn your Ipod up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Gilberts Fridge wrote: |
Have a drink for take off and landing to help with the ears. In fact some airlines slightly pressurise on the ground so after departure have it handy.
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Off topic slightly, however this may be useful for parents to understand exactly what is happening to the aircraft cabin pressure during asscent & descent.
On take off the aircraft cabin is always at ground level pressure. During the asscent the cabin is allowed to naturally depressurise as altitude is gained. At somewhere around 8-10 thousand feet the cabin is sealed to prevent any further depressurisation, as any further loss of pressure affects the way oxygen is transfered by the lungs and can lead to problems. During this process the body will naturally equalise the pressure in the ears through the nasal sinuses, and so long as the sinuses are clear then no ill effects should be felt. If your baby experiences any pain during this phase then it is likely to be a problem with their sinuses, or they may be feeling discomfort from the expansion of the body as a whole due to the reduced ambient pressure. Make sure that all their clothing is loosened and there is nothing tight or restrictive. No airline will ever pressurise the cabin on the ground in fact cabin pressure is never raised above ambient artificially.
For the duration of the flight the cabin pressure will be held at the 8-10K feet level, and only once the aircraft has descended below this level during it's descent will it be allowed to then equalise to the external pressure, and then allow the external atmospheric pressure to balance the cabin pressure for the rest of the descent, until everything returns to normal ground level pressure on landing. It is this last 10K feet of the descent where you will have problems with your ears. What is happening is that the pressure external to your body is increasing with repect to that within your body and any membrane that cannot allow air to pass through to equalise the pressure (your eardrums) will experience pain. Because the increased pressure is on the outside then you will need to forcefully increase the pressure until it is equal on both sides. This is what you are doing when you hold your nose and blow, you are forcing extra air into your nasal sinuses, increasing the pressure and balancing out the difference to the external air pressure. It is beneficial to do this frequently and before the pain becomes to bad, this is because it is easier to balance small increments of pressure than large ones so be proactive and start equalising as soon as you detect a change, and keep doing so every few seconds until you touch down. Encourage you young kids to do this themselves and to copy you and you should have no problems. The only problems will be if you leave it until the kids are in pain/discomfort before getting them to try and equalise. By this point the pressure difference may be too large for them to be able to equalise and they may not be able to until sometime after you are on the ground.
With babies/todlers it is another ball game as they are too young to follow instruction. What you will need to do is to try and get them to swallow regularly throughout the final 1/3-1/2 of the descent. If you're gong to give them a bottle or such like, then don't do it too early so that they finish it before the plane gets below the pressure threshold.
Any divers out there will understand exactly what is going on as it is exactly the same as a dive, but in reverse.
Hope this helps
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