 Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, Say whatever you like, but you should not be surprised at the way things have gone.
I liked boredsurfings fishes on page 1 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stoatsbrother, Why thank you, kind Sir, 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother, I too liked the fishes - wholly inappropriate IMV, but lovely fishes nonetheless. Lots of folks here seem rather expert at these larger animated giffs and smile-ies, Darky was quite expert with them too IIRC, though heaven knows how much she put her PC through to download them in the first place - lots of smiley sites seem loaded with undesireable software too and I often won't take the risk. However boredsufin's fishes - or were they dolphins?, were lovely. I quite like dolphins and have shelf full of glass ones at home all sort of different colours so the little animated ones went down quite favourably here.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum,
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| I quite like dolphins |
So do I brushed with olive oil and garlic, then gently grilled on the BBQ.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman, Bet you can't eat a whole one
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman, Not as good as barbequed goat!!
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Dolphin & Goat - Surf & Turf 
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There used to be a restaurant in our town many years ago called The Green Pepper that used to serve that dish - it was one of my favourites, but done with scallops and rump steak on kebabs MMMmmmmm
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, I first had it at a beach club in Oman, Lobster & Steak. both on the Barbie. 
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Obviously still a bit of heat on this topic evident, maybe in hindsight better left alone for a while longer.
Agree with much of what easiski has said, not a lot of direct disagreement (only minor nuances) within professionals, more between pros and non-pros.
I really don't agree that the majority of the strife was between the instructors at all.
With regard to BzK being a nicer place now, that may well be the case, but have to respectfully disagree about the quality of information. A quick glance at the recent off-piste thread shows a lot of noise and wrong information, but also some good correct information. How is someone supposed to pick out the good from bad?
If BzK is akin to a corner in a pub where someone discusses skiing and all viewpoints are welcome (good and/or total nonsense) then that is exactly what it is now. But if sH wanted BzK to be a reference for ski technique/teaching etc. then it's probably a non-starter in it's current guise.
Finally:
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| But that's the trouble with non-specific criticism it risks the people at whom it is not directed assuming, wrongly, that it is directed at them. |
and then in the next few posts from the same poster:
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| Of course, we shouldn't forget that one of the pros left for a completely different reason |
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| er, probably best not to dredge it up again. |
Who and what? Don't make it personal unless you want to name and explain!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| veeeight wrote: |
...
Agree with much of what easiski has said, not a lot of direct disagreement (only minor nuances) within professionals, more between pros and non-pros.
I really don't agree that the majority of the strife was between the instructors at all...
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Then can you please highlight a few threads where this was the case. I would be interested to know the root cause of this. I haven't looked at your posts, but yesterday I looked at easiski's last 40+ posts in BZK (going back to mid November) and the only discussions that could possibly be classed as "heated exchanges" that she had were with you and off-pisteskiing - both instructors.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ray Zorro, Hardly 'heated exchanges' - certainly some discussion, but mostly about style and terminology I would have thought.
stoatsbrother, boredsurfin, Since you obviously don't want a knowledge-based technical forum, why do you bother to read it at all? Megamum, Is one of the most novice skiers on SH, has asked many questions, and seems to have no trouble understanding the answers.
stoatsbrother, " Megamum This thread does seem to be picking at a scab rather unnecessarily. The instructors are free to post if they wish to. At least half the strife seemed to be between them, with some posting absurdly dogmatic statements, others slagging off ordinary punters, or seeming to me to imply that the approach one side of the Atlantic was better than the other. And then we had long unprompted essays about particular aspects of skiing. I agree entirely by the way with Agenterres analysis in his post to LT
Having said which - if I were an instructor I would not post here unless it did raise my profile and encourage business. For most of us skiing is play,not work. I certainly wouldn't spend more than 10% of my web forum posts talking about my day job, much as I love it. "
There you are! You just can't understand anyone doing anything other than for personal gain can you?
I have never noticed anyone slagging off ordinary punters. The essays that you seem to despise were extremely helpful to anyone who actually wanted to ski better, whether the skiing myths series by V8 or the Meat and Potatoes series by Fastman. Of course it's clear that many people do not want to learn, and are trying their best to spoil it for the ones who do.
Veeeight Precisely
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| easiski wrote: |
Ray Zorro, Hardly 'heated exchanges' - certainly some discussion, but mostly about style and terminology I would have thought...
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My point was that I didn't see any amateurs slagging off any professionals in any of those posts and that appears to be the thing that you and veeeight are most annoyed about. I have also re-read the meat and potatoes thread - again, no criticism of professionals by amateurs there either, just thanks and praise 
Could you recall for me some of the particular threads/posts where amateurs have slagged you or your advice?
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You know it makes sense.
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| veeeight wrote: |
I really don't agree that the majority of the strife was between the instructors at all.
With regard to BzK being a nicer place now, that may well be the case, but have to respectfully disagree about the quality of information. ..
If BzK is akin to a corner in a pub where someone discusses skiing and all viewpoints are welcome (good and/or total nonsense) then that is exactly what it is now. But if sH wanted BzK to be a reference for ski technique/teaching etc. then it's probably a non-starter in it's current guise.
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well said.. my view exactly. Many "regulars" within snowheads want the site to be a friendly "corner in a pub" chat room and a technically biased learning area doesn’t have a place in the pub because discussions on technique, how to ski or how skiing works don’t have simple easy answers that can be peppered with insider jokes, innuendo or smiley faces...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So how do we go forward.
It appears that
1) Some Snowheads want to leave the ski instruction forum as it is with every snowhead and their dog contributing.
2) The pro's aren't happy to give free advice only to have non-pros disagree with them.
3) Some Snowheads (I suspect many) would like the pro's to keep contributing.
Maybe an additional "Ask the professionals" type forum work here - is that what is needed?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DB,
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Maybe an additional "Ask the professionals" type forum work here - is that what is needed?
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Why not? It will need its own stringent set of T&Cs, though eg
1) questions at all levels of competence allowed
1) no off-topic comments
2) no weighing in by amateurs who think they know better ie accept the advice or lump it, whatever the manner in which it's served up. Conflicting advice from professionals would have to be taken on the chin. The only permitted answering back would be along the lines of: sorry, I didn't quite understand that, could you explain it in a different way, or sorry, that's not what I meant by my question.
3) no wit, humour, smilies or light-heartedness of any sort - just questions and answers.
4) strict moderating, to enforce the above.
I guess someone (admin?) will need to establish the definition of 'professional'. Perhaps volunteers to run this 'clinic' could be sought, and they would present their credentials with their applications.
I personally wouldn't mind a walk-in service like that and would be prepared to abide by such rules. If we don't like the professional advice on offer, tough, we can just vote with our feet. And if we want pub conversations, they could be accommodated as well - people could just start their own threads outside the clinic.
Could be worth a whirl.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bones, yes, if there were such a function, that would get rid of unauthorised amateur contributions at a stroke.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DB, a few other ideas for your list...
4) Admin suggested at one point having a "hidden" forum for instructors only so that they can "talk shop" behind closed doors, debate and argue techi points outside the view of the public. This would keep disagreements outside the public eye, in his view encourage more instructors to join snowheads and perhaps once "in" would post in the public area. I dont like it myself personally but it is a suggestion worth considering.
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Maybe an additional "Ask the professionals" type forum work here - is that what is needed?
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IMO there arent enough teachers on snowheads for an ask a pro section to have enough inertia to work well. I would guess there are less than a dozen mountain based pros on here and a few dozen more UK based part timers and where do you draw the line as to who is a "pro". Having experienced skiers that havent gone through the training chipping in is a good thing and they may have more to add than a newly qualified Club Instructor. For instance there are many highly experience back country skiers that are much more experienced off piste than a lot of instructors and they have a lot of good things to say about ski touring...
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2) The pro's aren't happy to give free advice only to have non-pros disagree with them.
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Wrong IMO, being challenged on a point or seeking clarification is fine, keeps you on your toes and helps the thinking process. But having constant bleating that explanations without the benefit of pictures, video or demonstrations are too complex or long winded becomes tedious as are some un qualifieds peeps not willing to agree to disagree when told they are factually incorrect by a qualified instructor.
5) The best suggestion i heard was to break up the techi forum into two areas: a "Green Run" zone where people can ask questions about how to ski, skiing tips, fix my problem, etc and expect simple clear "friendly" non controversial answers. In this area pros should refrain from contradicting each other in the open area but settle disagreements by PM and then offer up a consensual answer or if they cant agree, "agree to disagree" in a polite fashion and let the readers decide.
The "Black run" zone could be much more technical for sensible discussions and debates on how skiing works, physiology, different teaching styles, instructor courses, etc. and hopefully anyone whining about it being to techi could be politely told to go elsewhere.
Admin doesnt seem to want to do this though....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, the trouble with a free-for-all is that you are bound to get people posting things which other people don't like, in terms of content, presentation, style or just plain courtesy. Disagreements almost inevitably lead to argy-bargies, with people posting things they regret (certainly applies to me!) and throwing toys out of prams. Furthermore, entry to the black zone would be disputed, simply because - as I think a recent thread established fairly conclusively - basic techniques are applicable at all levels. In this connection, I note your example of
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different teaching styles
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for the black zone. That was precisely the area in which I was roundly criticised myself for, effectively, meddling in matters which were beyond me. (I was labouring what became a long and tedious comparison with learning a musical instrument.  )
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Internet fora are not for the thin-skinned. Being right is no defence. Doesn't matter how you cut it.
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Hurtle, I agree but if we had two rooms you at least know what room you are going into you may behave slightly differently. Kinda like one corner of the pub that hosts a friendly card game with friends with lots of banter or in teh other corner a high stakes poker game which is more serious and to the point, each corner attracts a different type of player looking for something of interest to them.
by different teaching styles i meant as an example for the Black zone more of a debate about the differences between training systems such as BASI, CSIA, PSIA etc or debate on different learner types as opposed to the "green zone" topic of a basic technique question like "i want to learn how to snow plough how do i do it? where basic questions would be explained in non technical language to newbies...
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skimottaret
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if we had two rooms you at least know what room you are going into you may behave slightly differently. Kinda like one corner of the pub that hosts a friendly card game with friends with lots of banter or in teh other corner a high stakes poker game which is more serious and to the point, each corner attracts a different type of player looking for something of interest to them.
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An extemely good analogy. That could really work.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Does anyone know if Admin has come to a descision on................. snowShops yet 
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 29-01-08 13:41; edited 1 time in total
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skimottaret, I see what you mean. But, take off-piste skiing, that tends to be done by people who already have a reasonable mastery of skiing on-piste, so they might be expected to direct their questions to the black zone. Once in the black zone, you run into veeeight's issue
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A quick glance at the recent off-piste thread shows a lot of noise and wrong information, but also some good correct information. How is someone supposed to pick out the good from bad?
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I don't know, but I suspect he may be saying that some of the noise/wrong information appears to be emanating from some very experienced off-piste skiers. So, everyone's legitimately in the black zone, but there's still lots of noise. How do you deal with that?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret,
You've just taken my suggestion of two ski instruction areas (which I openly admitted was taken from Epic), called it something else and padded it out as a new great idea - are you a consultant or something?
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brian
brian
Guest
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veeeight,
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Who and what? Don't make it personal unless you want to name and explain!
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I have been contemplating the wisdom of replying to your question and have come to the conclusion that there is no harm in doing so.
1) I have felt, on more than one occasion, patronised and sneered at by you (laundryman, call me thin-skinned if you like! ) and have found your reluctance to accept criticism irksome.
2) I have consistently felt that easiski and Fastman are more proficient at explaining themselves, at ALL levels, than most others who proffer technical advice on the forum. Furthermore they do (did) not deliver their advice 'de haut en bas.'
3) I believe that Fastman has left because of the treatment which he perceived as unjustifiably having been meted out to Little Tiger.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hurtle, perish the thought. Your skin is of exactly the right thickness.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman, thank you, kind sir.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, laundryman, I agree absolutely. And it isn't always the punters who have the thin skin.
easiski, Thanks for the insults. As I said "others slagging off ordinary punters". I think WTFH nailed that one pretty well previously. I can also understand plenty of people doing things for the love of it. I just don't expect them to do it. And as Ray Zorro said - many of the arguments did seem pro-on-pro. Lots of us want to learn, take lessons, get feedback from better skiers, but we still recognise when we are being condescended to, (V8 ) or getting contradictory or poorly expressed advice. For me BZK was a no go zone precisely because of this.
skimottaret, I like your idea.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 29-01-08 14:50; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
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2) The pro's aren't happy to give free advice only to have non-pros disagree with them.
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Wrong IMO, being challenged on a point or seeking clarification is fine, keeps you on your toes and helps the thinking process. But having constant bleating that explanations without the benefit of pictures, video or demonstrations are too complex or long winded becomes tedious as are some un qualifieds peeps not willing to agree to disagree when told they are factually incorrect by a qualified instructor.
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This is almost where easiski came in at the beginning of this thread...
Can you highlight some examples of "unqualifieds peeps not willing to agree to disagree when told they are factually incorrect by a qualified instructor." Especially where they lead on to slagging off of professionals.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Threads about BZK not being as good as it was last year just aren't as good as they were last year.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rayscoops, oh no you're not...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret,
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In your off piste example as everyone is a pretty good skier they should know what they are wading into and be able to take criticism of their ideas defend them or learn from their mistakes.... if it gets ugly "agreeing to disagree" always works to draw a line under entrenched views. Me for instance, i am pretty poor off piste through lack of mileage and dont feel qualified to comment but would be interested to get views of experienced back country types that may not hold a license but "know their onions". if their explanations are technically in-correct, get taken to task by an instructor and amended everyone wins through a more clear cogent explaination.
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All that sounds fine by me, but it also sounds like yer pretty average bar chat, doesn't it?
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FAQ
I am off to start a who are the 'top ten' argumentative snowheads 