 Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, It does, thank you.
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| Too much bickering, not enough sensible conversations |
That is my view.
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| and that detailed technical discussions on skiing without supporting pictures, video, diagrams etc doesnt work for most people |
. It depends. Sometimes it does work for me, but not often
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| Using technical terms comes accross as elitist and the instructors who contribute are egotistical and/or desirous of hero worship, not genuinely trying to help with advice or learn themselves when 'talking shop'. |
Totally disagree. Some folks obviously know there stuff and take the time and trouble to share and discuss.
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| No tolerance of contrary views and no appreciation that there is no "one" way to descibe how skiing works or how best to teach someone how to ski... |
Yes one does see some of this.
The only suggestion I can make is perhaps establishing the knowledge that BzK is a serious section where folks don't derail the threads, don't hijack the threads, and generally don't tit about.... there is the rest of the forum for this [/quote]
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm getting confused too. There appear to be a number of 'experts' agreeing that things should, and need to, change.
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman, I (and CEM) have done just that several times. go back and read a few of the threads on "why we should keep BZK's" and the opposing "smash it up and kill it" school of thought. interesting both types of threads seem to come to the same similar conclusions. |
Agreed...having read them that is what the consensus would appear to have become ..however the thread was started.... ( although some of the smash-and-kill was probably created as a Trojan horse to initiate views)
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| Too much bickering, not enough sensible conversations |
Agreed
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| and that detailed technical discussions on skiing without supporting pictures, video, diagrams etc doesnt work for most people. ........(deleted as I hadn't seen.)....... No tolerance of contrary views and no appreciation that there is no "one" way to descibe how skiing works or how best to teach someone how to ski.... |
Yep. still seems to be the consensus , by quantity of posters not volume of post. A couple of posters, understandably, have been more vociferous..
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| The underlying sentiment is that there are many here who dont want the site to become too techy as it feels less friendly and those who wish to discuss such things should go elsewhere... |
...... but where does that come from? I havent seen that at all unless there is some 'sub-agenda' that I am missing? Who has written that ???
I thought the consensus was:-
'Please get on with it and stop the bitching and love-ins between pros in BZK threads where folks are looking for help' .
I, like FTS, am totally missing something here. Instructors and Bootfitters are disappearing ..... yet I genuinely feel that the real reasons are unclear.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 18-12-07 11:39; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| I'm getting condused too. There appear to be a number of 'experts' agreeing ... |
... and we all know that should never happen in BZK .
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I, like FTS, am totally missing something here. Instructors and Bootfitters are disappearing ..... yet I genuinely feel that the real reasons are unclear.
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you're not alone in that view Agenterre. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'll add my name to the "don't understand it either" list. It would be helpful if someone would give an example or two of the who, what, when where and why of all the disgruntlement 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ray Zorro, skimottaret gave a nice precis here
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Frosty the Snowman, I saw that, but it is very general and that doesn't really mean a great deal to me. It would be helpful if someone could actually say "... this happened [link] and it upset [X] so they aren't going to post again".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It is the internet...some people post honest views, some wind-up, some do what they do...
and as arno said, if you can't see past that, then you'll run aground anywhere.
I agree with GrahamN, this is a remarkably civilised place in terms of what else is out there... even the flamings are tame-ish and if you get one here, then you probably have just over-cooked it..... I don't think there are too many enemies made for very long, anyway.
You have to be raving bonkers for that...
I don't want to see many leave..... one or two fruitcakes wouldn't be missed but I am not counting the posters here in that or the names mentioned, they bring far too much to the party for there to be anything but a mild dissagreement sometimes..IMV.
I'd suggest a bit of over-reacting, it is xmas, and the snow is falling, the season has started and most of us are a few weeks away from a rela fix......WTF are we doing here..? of course, we are a bit cranky.
I am off to the pub..
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Ray Zorro, I saw a thread titled "10 reasons why dry slopes suck" . I found that very upsetting as some of my close friends depend on dry slopes for a living.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This isn't going to get resolved until those who appear to be upset and who have gone elsewhere give clear examples of what upset them. Other users can then judge for themselves whether that perception of offense was justified or not.
Otherwise we are just going round and round in circles second-guessing ourselves.
JT - agreed - mines a pint
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret seems to have a bee in his bonnet about splitting the forum, has raised the idea several times, and found people disagree with him, think it's a bad idea and suggested workable alternatives. So big deal, that idea didn't fly, move on.
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sorry graham, im not bailing because one suggestion of splitting the forum wasnt taken up. I raised that particular subject again as i was at a loss as to how to keep both "sides" happy and was trying to offer a positive solution. I dont want to come across as prima donna ish but i repeat..... where have all the other usual expert posters and instructor gone to? i dont think it is just me that is sick of the constant moaning and groaning.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| Ray Zorro, I saw a thread titled "10 reasons why dry slopes suck" . I found that very upsetting as some of my close friends depend on dry slopes for a living. |
that was me and it was meant to be a tongue in cheek poke at a typically odd English "make do" quaint solution to a lack of mountains. i could be wrong but where else will find a flat country dotted with plastic ski slopes
If it was so very upsetting to you why didnt you post on that thread to say so?
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You know it makes sense.
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I'll add my weight (and there's plenty to add)  to the 'what's all the fuss about? camp'.
I have just read this thread from top to bottom and, pretty much all disagreement seems pretty good natured. OK the odd dig, but nothing to get upset about.
My (reasonably) serious suggestion of a 'green run' subsection on the other thread was to provide a place that would encourage timid newbies to feel free to ask newbie questions, and get (where possible) simple answers without being intimidated by the highly technical debates that spring up over here. It was NOT meant to suggest that such technical debates are in any way unwelcome. I strongly suspect that most  's , like me, really enjoy reading the detailed discussions and explanations given for the wide variety of views expressed.
I think this place would be much poorer without the input from the experts, even when they disagree (perhaps MOST OF ALL when they disagree), I do hope the likes of CEM, Skimottaret, Veeight, Fastman Easiski, offpisteskiing and even SZK (  ) ( and all the other pro's to whom I apologise for failing to mention) stick around to slug it out for the benefit and entertainment of us punters. It really is appreciated, of that I'm certain.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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AxsMan, I quite enjoy the odd slug.
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Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Burp! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just look at the number of views for BZNs! Loads and loads of people! I guess that that means they enjoy reading it and are learning something. Just because a few, very few people have had a pop doesn't mean anything. That's life! Please get over it guys and keep posting.
We love you and we like to read your input 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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How about if someone asks a simple question, give them a simple answer. If they want more info or clarification, let them ask for it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
If it was so very upsetting to you why didnt you post on that thread to say so?
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because I didn't want to be accused of being part of some shadowy clique or mafia!
and my point was simply that almost all of us are capable of posting stuff that upsets some of the people some of the time, I'm just puzzled why some BZK contributors appear to be letting it get to them to this extent.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman, How should I ski on ice? 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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AxsMan, Answer 14  would work fine.
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Spyderman, At last! Clarity!
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AxsMan, I agree with Spyderman
I'm Sparticus, etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, The vast majority of folks really appreciate the help and advice that you and the other experts give and frequently say so. The BZK forum is extremely popular. I really don't understand why you experts can't just ignore the comments that p*ss you off, just skip over them as if they weren't there.
Loads of folk get a lot of benefit from your posts and it would be really sad if that were to stop.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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GrahamN, me four. You and I had a bit of a barney at one stage, I doubt that there's any ill feeling remaining on either side, is there? I have learned from that not to meddle in technical conversations which are completely over my head: some of them - even if they're right argy-bargies - I still enjoy from afar (the recent boot-fitting argument was fascinating to me, perhaps because I know a bit more about anatomy and physiology than I do about physics, but I still wouldn't have interfered). If something is addressed to my level of expertise and knowledge, in language that I can understand, I am grateful. And I do still hold the view that some highly technical concepts can and should be expressed in words that can be understood by the lay practitioner - skimottaret's glossary is simply wonderful. But I hate, hate, hate being patronised: there is no-one who holds all the right answers to every question and no-one who deserves to be immune from criticism and, indeed, a bit of joshing if they look as though they're getting slightly up themselves. Patronising, sneering, humourless, prima-donna-ish behaviour and a complete inability to tolerate disagreement are the real problem here. The sad fact is, though, that the type of person who indulges in that sort of behaviour is unlikely to be self-aware. What is actually more likely, is that people who aren't like that, start to feel victimised and leave.
I second, or third, or fourth (I've lost count) the motion that CEM and skimottaret would be sadly missed. At least I know where to find CEM, and shall certainly be making a pilgrimage to Bicester in due course. CEM, you have been warned. I also have every intention at some point of making a longer journey to L2A, for some easiski lessons, if she is willing to take me on. I know I will be in good hands, in both cases.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle - well said 
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Hasn't all this become rather a storm in a chocolate teapot? It appears to me the collective has lost sight of whatever it was that was a problem.
Though, I quite like the idea of a "Green Run" though where no-one should feel afraid of asking what may appear to be very basic questions..
Which surely allows us to have "Black Run" where "poster beware"? 
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brian
brian
Guest
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Patronising, sneering, humourless, prima-donna-ish behaviour and a complete inability to tolerate disagreement are the real problem here. The sad fact is, though, that the type of person who indulges in that sort of behaviour is unlikely to be self-aware. |
Perhaps you might like to spell it out for them then. Tell you what, I'll start, gimme a "v" ...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| ... Patronising, sneering, humourless, prima-donna-ish behaviour and a complete inability to tolerate disagreement are the real problem here... |
It would be most helpful if you could link to some examples, then we will all know who and what you are aiming at here.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ray Zorro, Thought I had wandered into Dawn Chorus for a mo
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| there is no-one who holds all the right answers to every question and no-one who deserves to be immune from criticism and, indeed, a bit of joshing if they look as though they're getting slightly up themselves. |
Hear! Hear! Right with you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I only just think I'm following this.
Can anyone say who did what to whom, who stormed off, and why anyone should care?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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johnnyh, Nothing worth sulking about, any instructors you haven't seen recently, no reason at all. ok?
brian, very subtle...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I was thinking that Spyderman. I almost sensed agreement at some points... 
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BTW and FWIW - I think the idea of having a "Green Run" (post here if you'd like simple, direct answers to your question) and a "Black Run" (post here if you'd like all hell to break loose in answer to your question) is a good one.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PhillipStanton,
Megamum just headed her piste pole thread clearly - that's a good idea too, maybe better than a forum split.
The trouble with a split is that some people want to know (and if they're doing instructor training, they need to learn and know) the mechanics of really elementary manoeuvres and, at the other end of the spectrum, some of the boy racers don't want to be bothered with the mechanics of even the kamikaze stuff. I guess what I'm saying - not at all coherently, but I have been overtaken by flu, or at least flu-like symptoms - the split will be difficult to manage. That's why I think that, if they can, people should just skim/ignore the over-complicated or over-elementary bits, depending on their inclination. I have learned to do this, I promise - after an admittedly shaky start! And if I can, presumably everyone else can. Ditto arguments breaking out - let people have (level playing field) arguments if they wish. But let us not ignore people being irritating or unkind - why should we? I expect people to have a pop at me if I'm being arsey, so should everyone else.
And now, of course, the very need to ask dumb questions has been significantly reduced by skimottaret's excellent glossary - though I still have a bit of difficulty regarding when to use some technique or other, even if I understand what it means. If you see what I mean. Oh bloody hell, I'm not making sense, my head feels as though it's going to explode, paras/brufens and bed call. Night, night.
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FAQ
