 Poster: A snowHead
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| PP wrote: |
I have used one of these last 2 seasons. Its a vario 15; with this design you can change the volume of your back pack. I dont tour so just use it for downhill with the occasional boot pack/rappel.
When sized and adjusted correctly its very comfortable to wear (it comes in different sizes; i would recommend buying it from a proper supplier to get it right). It does not interfere with a harness and there is no need to take it off on modern chairlifts. Skis can b attached to the back without compromising its function. It is heavy and it did take me a little while to get used to the extra weight but now i dont notice it. However if you are into touring i can see why you may have reservations. I have had the same problem that DB reports but that is why they supply the silicone 'oil' thingy with the bag.
Although in the past we normally drove this year we had to fly. I contacted easyjet a few weeks prior to flying and although they aware of IATA certification they still refused to let me fly with the trigger and canister. I landed up discharging my bag and simply packing the empty cylinder and trigger with the rest of my clobber. Replacements cost me 27 euros.
As far as i am concerned avalung is a non starter: for it to work you have to be a) conscious b) able to breath ie intact ribs etc and c) the avalanche debris has to allow your chest room to expand to take in a breath. ABS is deployed when the avalanche starts and helps minimise injury by keeping you in top of the snow. |
PP well no the ABS doesn't deploy magically when the avalanche starts, you still need to be conscious, find the handle and pull it at the right time!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DB wrote: |
My ABS rucksack handle wouldn't release and then wouldn't click in once. I almost set it off just trying to release the handle. Great that I carried ca 3 kg more weight up a long tour only to find it wouldn't of helped me in an avalanche. Applying a bit of oil/grease helped and it was soon back to normal. I now check to see it is operating smoothly before every trip. |
That's a sad read. I do remember my instructor at St Anton last year rated ABS. IIRC he had been involved in avalanche rescues where they had been very successful.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, and the story continues..I think.
This and the air travel issue has made me decide to defer about buying a new pack...
Hopefully Snowpulse or others can provide a possible alternative here
and.... I had wondered why this idea/system hadn't made more headway with guides companies.
If they really got behind it then I would think that all guides by now, would insist you have/hire one....
Maybe these are some of the reasons...???
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kitenski, you are never going to be in as good a position to save your life as you will at the start of the avalanche (spare me the 'don't get caught' line). I cant believe that you think its more difficult to pull a large handle strapped to your chest once you have fallen (or even just before), then it is to hold a mouth piece whilst tumbling at 80+ mph inside an avalanche, hoping that when all the snow and you have come to a stop your chest will be in a position to breath for long enough so that someone can rescue you????
What little scientific evidence there is supporting the use of ABS it is still way more then no evidence at all for the use of avalung (anecdotal reports don't count; even if they did ABS wins hands down). At least they have shown that in real avalanches, crash test dummies strapped to ABS bags more often then not will end up on top of the snow. Evidence for avalung amounts to a bloke sitting in a hole with his mates shovelling enough snow to just cover his head. Hardly the avalanche scenario.
achilles, I think he meant that he could not get the handle off rather then that the bag did not deploy.
JT, have a look at a recent post on pistehors re snowpulse. I like their bag and i think it will be better one day, but at the present time they just dont have the experience that the ABS people have.
Oh, and all the guides i usually ski with use ABS bags, as do all the pisteurs in espace killy and (i think) paradiski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PP, true, but if you pull the handle and nothing happens, your a bit stuffed aren't you!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| achilles wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
My ABS rucksack handle wouldn't release and then wouldn't click in once. I almost set it off just trying to release the handle. Great that I carried ca 3 kg more weight up a long tour only to find it wouldn't of helped me in an avalanche. Applying a bit of oil/grease helped and it was soon back to normal. I now check to see it is operating smoothly before every trip. |
That's a sad read. I do remember my instructor at St Anton last year rated ABS. IIRC he had been involved in avalanche rescues where they had been very successful. |
Just to be clear I wasn't in an avalanche. I couldn't get the handle to click in and stay attached to the rucksack so had I been in an avalanche I wouldn't of had any handle to pull and activate the bag. My ABS rucksack didn't come with any oil. When setting out I realized that I would be carrying a rucksack that had extra weight for hours which wasn't going to serve any useful safety purpose.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 2-04-09 15:46; edited 1 time in total
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PP, I think your missing the point!! 2 people appear to have issues with the pull handle bit working, that's the concern here, I am not arguing that the ABS is a good idea, but it has to be 100% reliable........
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PP, I am hoping that more manufacturers will explore the air-bag and we will get improvements and better options.
I am not sure how many are exploring that line tho.
I didn't see any Piste-Patrolers wearing them ( ABS ) in Tignes in Dec nor do I recall any in Le Grave in the last 2 years....and the conditions warranted avi kit...
But anyway..it doesn't matter, I think we would all like a sure-fire version that is light enough. Not a fan on the ABS pack myself, so would welcome any new progress and players into the game...
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kitenski, the problem does not occur when you try to deploy the bags. It is when you are trying to remove the trigger handle without deploying your bags that the handle gets stuck. The mechanism requires you to pull on a covering gaskett/ring so the trigger can be removed without firing it. When this casing gets iced up it grips the trigger: this does not interfere in the emergency situation as you need the trigger handle to be retained. The same can happen when you try to 'arm' your bag.
Just like any other piece of kit it needs to be maintained and a bit of the silicon lubricant sorts it out.
The ABS bag has been use in anger all over the world and deployment problems are very rare. Nothing is full proof.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| PP wrote: |
| What little scientific evidence there is supporting the use of ABS it is still way more then no evidence at all for the use of avalung (anecdotal reports don't count; even if they did ABS wins hands down). At least they have shown that in real avalanches, crash test dummies strapped to ABS bags more often then not will end up on top of the snow. Evidence for avalung amounts to a bloke sitting in a hole with his mates shovelling enough snow to just cover his head. Hardly the avalanche scenario. |
so burying some dude as a test and actual reports of people who have successfully used an Avalung won't convince you, but using a crash test-dummy will? are you, by any chance, trying to justify to yourself dropping EUR700 on a rucksack? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have one. Only flown with it once (it lives in France, and I didn't bother taking it to Tahoe) but all was OK. In fact on x-raying more fuss was made of Mother-in-law's Xmas cake which aroused much suspicion due to its density and had to be separately inspected(true!)
I wear it pretty much every day, I'm used to the weight and you never know when you'll go off-piste - it's got all the stuff in it (shovel, probe, jagermeister etc)
Some of the piste patrol in Chamonix use them (depending on task I imagine as I've seen them wearing them on level 2 days). I saw quite a few in La Grave too.
I do wish you could get them without the ABS stuff all over them to be a bit more discreet.
Also I always carry the little tube of silicone lube in it. It does need it occasionally.
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, i am sure that being an experienced man of the mountain (judging from your posts) you have tried to dig through avalanche debris as part of your safety training. So you will know how snow that has run down the mountain at 80 mph and come to a stop relatively quickly feels; its hard impacted and generally difficult to dig out. The demonstration ( as that is not an experiment) that a person equipped with an avalung with some snow shovelled on top of him can breathe for a short while proves just that and no more. The subject was uninjured and did not come hurtling down the mountain. You only need to break 1 rib and your breathing ability will already be impaired;if you break three (or more ) you have a life threatening injury and that's without any snow on top of you.
Crash test dummy experiment proves that the subjects in most cases stayed on top of the avalanche.Those that did not were visible thus aiding rescue and increasing their chances of survival. We can also extrapolate that by staying on top of the avalanche injuries would be less likely.
But if you remain unconvinced by my arguments ask yourself why a large company like espace killy (and others) would have spend that much money on the abs when they could have spent 1/10th on the avalung.
Also have you ever seen a guide with an avalung?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My guide in Tignes this year had one. He's actually fired it in an Avy too, says at the time he was starting to eat snow - but after firing he was lifted to the surface and could breath before the slide stopped.
To be honest, I couldn't really feel a difference in the weight betwen his pack and mine.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| PP wrote: |
| Also have you ever seen a guide with an avalung? |
Yes, in Alagna.
Have you watched that youtube video PP?
Have you read hte account of people buried in real avalanches (inc some guides) wearing avalungs?
http://www.avalung.com/flash/avalung.html
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes i have seen it and yes i have been on their website. As i said earlier anecdotal evidence is of little scientific value and cant be used as proof that the device (in this instance) will improve your chances of survival. I would recommend going onto the abs website to find the equivalent volume of anecdotal accounts supporting the use of their device. On top of that you will also find a video of an EXPERIMENT providing some scientific evidence that their product works in an avalanche scenario. This too does not amount to proof that it will save your life, but a prospective randomised controlled trial that would (provide that evidence, or refute it) is not feasible. As such we have to be guided by the best evidence available, in this case the above mentioned experiment.
I wont pretend to know all the guides in Monterosa but the three i have skied with used abs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PP, do you work for ABS by any chance 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PP, i don't think anyone doubts the theory behind ABS (ie the "brazil nut theory"); however, the scientific theory behind Avalung is equally valid - ie there is plenty of air in the snow etc etc. the experiment with the guy buried by his friends seems pretty adequate proof of this
isn't the question whether the piece of kit is really practical in taking advantage of the theory to save your a$$?
taking your own scenario with a pile of snow moving at 80 mph - what do you think your chances are of surviving that with ABS? doesn't matter whether you are in the snow or on top of it if all that snow is slamming into a rock.
i'm not ragging on ABS (i'd quite like one myself and I think it is *probably* superior to avalung) but i do think you are overstating the downsides of avalung and possibly overlooking some of the downsides of ABS
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Is a backpack with a combination of the 2 possible? Haven't read the whole thread in saying that...
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On my ABS the handle attachment gets stiff evry so often, but a dot of oil worked into the mechanism about once per season works fine. Not sure what sort of oils to use or to avoid. ABS do supply their own recommended oil and I cadge some off of a friend.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Had an interesting chat with a guide about ABS Vs Snowpulse yesterday. For those that don't know I bought an ABS at the beginning of the season and am I big fan, I got a great deal, it's bulky & heavy but it was cheap enough for me to justify getting now while Snowpulse, ABS & BCA sort out a new generation of packs - which I expect to see in 2/3 winters time.
The guide was given an Snowpulse as part of his guiding deal, he later bought an ABS (very cheaply but still handed over money for it). His major concerns were the general and overall construction of the Snowpulses being inferior, the handle is *apparently* much harder to deploy and there is a potential weakness in the design of the gas filling system. Which matches Verbier61 (maggot) experiences. I know this is anecdotal but his gas canister did something weird, excuse me, I don't know all the details but basically he spent 3 weeks skiing with the bag without enough gas to engage the wings. This could happen to any system and checking your gear regularilly helps to keep you safe but I suspect after the guides comment Francesco was not the first person to have discovered this.
None of the designs are perfect yet. I managed to loose my explosive handle on day 5 or 6 of owning the pack because it wasn't engaged properly. User error.
I have a love / hate thing with the Snowpulse system, I like the added head / neck protection system (which I heard could also be a negative as you deploy the bag you can no longer see behind you which is you are still trying to escape the avalanche path this could be bad?)
Would I wear an Avalung too if the whole thing could be easily integrated at not too great of an expense.
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I have heard of several people losing their ABS handles. Perhaps having a pure white handle on snow safety equipment was not the best design decision! I think some people drop them after removing the handle, while they fumble to put them into a pocket; maybe also wearing gloves. I bought a cord that ties to the handle and to the shoulder straps, to prevent handle loss. But that is not perfect! I almost pulled the handle when snagging the cord!
Initially the cord went from right shoulder across chest to handle on left shoulder. The argument in favour of this is it gives a bigger target to grab when the worst happens. But I found it inconvenient. The right hip pocket is not good for stowing the handle when not in use, and you must take the handle out before taking off the whole pack. Later I had both ends of the cord on the left. Stowing the handle into the left pocket is easier. The "grab target" is the same as without the cord.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Adrian, I was told that they want to change the colour of the handles but the white they are currently using is the only material that is sufficiently UV resistant. Might investigate a cord as you suggest...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| arv wrote: |
| Is a backpack with a combination of the 2 possible? Haven't read the whole thread in saying that... |
Maybe there's one also including a pair of foot operated cymbals and a mouth organ for Apres ski too. I'd imagine in the event of an avalanche that trying to operate the abs bag and getting the avalung into one's cake hole would be challenging to say the least.
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Could easily design it so that pulling the avalung to your mouth deploys the ABS system
Divers use 0.5 litre 230 bar mini air cylinders to provide emergency inflation to their equipment. It contains more than enough air to inflate the ABS several times over, its refillable from a dive cylinder, you can remove the valve to fly with them, and the deployment is foolproof and easy. Why cant ABS look at diving eqiuipment thats been in use for over 30 Years. Weight about 1 kg
Life jackets use CO2 canisters to provide inflation via a simple pull cord. The cyclinders are cheap and available in any chandlers and can be flown as hold luggage. The firing mechanisms are small, relaible and cheap
Its not as though its an air bag and needs to inflate in 0.0001 seconds, inflating to full over a few seconds would be fine
I have good contacts within the dive industry, folks who manufacture inflatable buoyancy aids, Stab jackets, SMB's etc in the UK. I'm going to talk to them about building bags into a rucksack and how hard it would be. Their top of the range vests are £300 or less and are a lot more technical and durable than ABS bags
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You know it makes sense.
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madmole, nice! Do it, lets build a real alternative...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have asked the UK's leading buoyancy equipmet manufacturers owner this morning. Lets see what he says
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Poster: A snowHead
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madmole, just floating the idea to him then?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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groan!!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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One of the big issues people have with the backpacks is the cost. BCA appear to be addressing this and other issues
http://poormansheli.com/2009/02/24/test-test-test/#more-3
The air bag is a different shape to the two already on the market. In time the debate will surely be what shaped airbag is best.
IMO the Avalung and Airbags compliment each other as they offer their protection at different stages during the avalanche and subsequent search and rescue. Airbags will decrease your chance of being buried and increase your chance of being rescued quickly. Avalung will buy you more time by protecting against suffocation (no. one cause of death in avalanche) if you are buried. Although one could argue that if the Airbag works as its supposed to the Avalung you would be less likely to require the avalung. The airbag may also offer some protection against trauma (no. 2 cause of death in avalanches).
Having considered the evidence I see considerable benefit in both systems. I will be keeping an eye on the development of BCA's airbag and hope to use both airbag and avalung next season (OK not use but wear) along with the standard search and rescue kit some proper training and common sense.
It does not look like an all in one Avalung Airbag system is on the cards as the patents are held by opposing companies. Although I did see a suggestion that Blackdiamond (makers of Avalung) would be producing an airbag but think that might have been a mixup with the BCA product. Some guys on TGR have retrofitted their ABS with Avalung and did very tidy jobs too.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sorry to go off track a bit here, but I think this needs saying:
| Quote: |
| "There are too many instances where the Avalung won't make much difference... eg away from the piste and the whole group get buried, who's gonna dig you out? Wait for the pros?" |
Are you serious???!!!
What is the GOLDEN rule of skiing off piste????
HINT: "NEVER PUT MORE THAN ONE PERSON AT RISK AT ONE TIME"
If you don't know this then you should not be in the back country in the first place. People who do not know how to act in the back coutnry are the ones that cause avalanches and kill their friends or strangers who just happen to be in the area.
If you don't grasp this, then hire a guide who will ensure your safey as much as possible. This thread appears to be discussing the merits of the two alternatives, but most of the people here seem to accept the basic "rules" and they remain out of the debate because it is taken that other posters accept and know this.
However, this clearly is not the case if posts like this appear. I suggest you buy avalanche guidance books and read them. Then read them again, and again. Then when you have done that, go out with guides and ASK them WHY they choose route A over B, WHY they do this, WHY they do that...ASK and learn, becuase there is no room for stupidity or bravado when skiing / boarding off piste...
It should be treated as a TEAM sport, not individual - work as a team, for the team.
If there is a doubt if a aspect is safe, then there is no doubt - it isn't. Don't be full of bravado, be alive and ski another day..
The best way I find to put your ego away and make a cold decision, and look at it this way when considering a line: I ask myself: "Would I like the people I love to remember me as selfish, knowing I skied a line that meant it could kill others who were trying to rescue me?" Only if I know the cards are well in my favour, will I do it. It will always be a stack of cards when you play with nature, but please be careful.
The best way to avoid a avalanche is to aviod putting yourself there...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Rafeski, wind ya neck in mate, especially for your first post!
Those on this board are well aware that "the best way to avoid a avalanche is to avoid putting yourself there". Do are search & you'll find plenty of previous posts simialar to yours.
On an equipment forum were posters are discussing the pros/cons of kit the 'usual caveats' are a given otherwise the thread content would all be similar to your post as opposed to tech talk etc.
BTW, welcome.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Rafeski, mate - this is a thread which died 18 months ago. Your first post here is strident, rude and hectoring.
I think most of us know everything you have said already. This was a discussion comparing two bits of kit. Search my recent posts and you will find me saying something similar to your underlying message - but in a gentle polite way.
Human factors are one of the main contributing factors to involvement in avalanches. Look at the research.
You have shown yourself to be a dominating loud mouth who enters a room and shouts at others he doesn't know - and tells them what to do without any understanding of their abilities or attitudes.
I would not ski off-piste with you.
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no expert on this but if the ABS system floats the skier why do you need the avalung, i would rather be floating than buried and hope for a rescue.
and i do think on studing the picures of the ABS , and how it operates ,the ripcord needs to be attached to your glove for a quicker response .
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Fair play stoatsbrother and spyderjon . I deserved that. Too much wine on a very personal and touchy subject....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
the ripcord needs to be attached to your glove for a quicker response
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NO.............trigger is pulled by skier in emergency, if it was attached to your glove it'd be deployed all the time!!
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Rafeski, no worries - let's move on.
Perhaps we should all ski in Sumo Suits all the time? 
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FAQ
