 Poster: A snowHead
|
| rjs wrote: |
| rob@rar, France has a similar system of "Club" instructor qualifications to those offered by SSE and SSS. |
A key difference in France is that their Club instructors are not considered professionals and can ONLY volunteer. The French do not allow their CI's to be charged out unlike here.
A dry slope here can have CI's act as professional instructors and charge the unsuspecting public. The dividing line IMO should be that CI's should only be as it says on the badge be "club" instructors, unpaid volunteers..
Nothing wrong having CI's help out and if they want to progress to a race coach qualification fair dues... THat is what SSE should concentrate on, grass roots volunteers and racing...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Spyderman, The SSE ASSI isn't just about turning up to a training course though is it ? There is also the ongoing training within the club.
Several of the group are 18 and still at school, they are also most of the ones who will probably do APC1.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| A dry slope here can have CI's act as professional instructors and charge the unsuspecting public. |
The horror!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| rjs wrote: |
| rob@rar, Several of them will go on to APC1, the rest probably won't do anything more. |
What teaching scenarios does the APC qualify you for?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
skimottaret, I agree, I think the split should be just as you describe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| What teaching scenarios does the APC qualify you for? |
Club race coach on snow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rjs wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| What teaching scenarios does the APC qualify you for? |
Club race coach on snow. |
OK, but not recreational skiers in a ski school type situation?
I agree that qualifications for instructors and coaches could easily be divided into two different organisations (BASI for teaching qualifications and SnowSport Whatever for race coaching qualifications, as well as promoting grassroots racing). The situation as of this week seems to take a different tack.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| The situation as of this week seems to take a different tack. |
Why do you see that ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think he means because ASSI is comparable with BASI L1, and both organisations are now offering a coaching qualification.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| rjs wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| The situation as of this week seems to take a different tack. |
Why do you see that ? |
Because of the continued provision of ASSI by SSE/S/W, which seems to me to be an instructors qualification rather than a coaches qualification. But if it does not allow progression to higher level instructors qualifications it adds confusion to an already fractured system. In my day job I'm involved with developing new qualifications, and the two highest priorities are comparability of standards and opportunities for progression. In this thread both these aspects seem to be questioned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Spyderman, I agree with your coments re the L1. Just like to add, as you know, none of the BASI courses are Giveaway prizes.
Standards have to be reached. At level one there are also a few drills added for the successful or even unsuccessful candidate to take away and work on as part of his/her action plan.
The action plan is designed to assist the candidate in preparing his/herself for the next level. They'll kno when the drills have been achieved to a good enough standard. They'll either be doing them with confidence or not.
And prior to attending the L1, the candidate is expected to have achieved a certain level of ability. All too often we see candidates appear who have not attained "entry level ability." They are quite often unsuccessful in completing all aspects of the course to a satisfactory level.
Some of these candidates are SSE CI who state they have been training with there local SSE coach. Now, I don't blame the coach's as much of the onus is on the candidate to be aware, or developing his/her awareness of actual ability.
If the coach's were pushing people through to L1 believing standards to be lower than they actually are, then I would sa there is a good argument for coach's to be on board with BASI or at least attending awareness sessions with BASI Tutors/trainers - perhaps during L1 courses.
The BASI system is progressive and each level is a logical progression to the next.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Snowshark, Well said. At Hemel our L1 course attendees went through 16 x 2 hours sessions with me in preparation for the L1 course. It is not an easy ride.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Spyderman wrote: |
| Where did I imply that a SSS ASSI was a lower level than a SSE ASSI? |
You didn't actually, dunno what fevered state led me to say that 
However SSE seem to think their ASSI is of a higher standard, dunno if they're correct or not but experience of the way they do theirs suggests to me that the additional 100 odd hours I mention above of mentoring and coaching might just lead to better results. However I have no direct experience of the SSS or BASI awards, I have only been told by an SSE coach, who apparently BASI tried to get on board, that the BASI award was of a shockingly low standard - in said person's opinion of course.
| Quote: |
| I have just returned from the final day of a BASI L1 course. The pass/fail criteria are exactly the same as that for L2 although the standard is lower. The difference is in L1 being at the Late Practice phase, rather than in L2 being at the Early aquired phase. BASI operate a 0-6 learning phase, where 0= haven't got a clue, through to 6 which is fully autonomous. |
Forgive my ignorance but were you observing the course or delivering it?
| Quote: |
| The problems started with the home nations in England with the dissatisfaction with the SSE system and SSS starting to offer their BASI Central Theme based ASSI system in England. It proved a huge success, to the point that most ASSI courses in the UK were being run under the SSS system. |
I've only heard of the English based SSS courses that were being listed on the SSS website and that wasn't at that many venues as I recall - 5 to 10 maybe? Were there more English based SSS courses?
| Quote: |
| How the Home nations now expect to offer one unified ASSI is beyond me. SSE & SSS are so poles apart, that it just won't happen., plus the conditions of the new unified ASSI will restrict each nation to operating in it's own country also. Good for SSE, but very bad for SSS. |
Yup, that was my thought too.
| Quote: |
It has now reached the October renewal of subscriptions and SSE & SSS find that more people than expected have decided to renew their membership, not with them, but with BASI instead. This has caused big financial concerns about their future revenue.
It's a panic measure from the home nations, that will end in disaster.
BASI will push on with the L1 award and now market it much more strongly than up to now. BASI have a strong reputation and are financially very sound. The L1 offers a clear path, whereas now taking a home nation ASSI leads pretty much to a confused dead end.
The courses are the same cost. I know which one I will be advising my Trainees to take. |
But again it'll surely depend on where you train as to what award you take. For example Gloucester are, and always have been to my knowledge, tied into the SSE award. They have an excellent ski school and there aren't many other options locally apart from The Avon Ski centre which did such a disastrous job with my daughter that I switched to Gloucester. Avon are now under new ownership and I believe trying to build up their ski school but I'm not sure what award they do. I suspect most people would opt for Gloucester though given it's reputation and there's nothing much else in the area so your choice is really only the SSE CI/ASSI. Surely therefore the success or failure of each award will depend far more on the number of centres offering each one rather than people shopping around?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| BG wrote: |
skimottaret, wrote
| Quote: |
A dry slope here can have CI's act as professional instructors and charge the unsuspecting public. The dividing line IMO should be that CI's should only be as it says on the badge be "club" instructors, unpaid volunteers..
|
What a load of crud  - I know plenty on CI's who are experienced, excellent teachers. They do a great job of teaching beginner to intermediate skiers and fully deserve to be paid weather that be as full or part time instructors. Yes there are some poor examples who slip through the net, in what profession aren't there?
|
I agree with you, we have CI's at hemel that do a great job. At Hemel once an instructor is fully qualified whatever level, He/She is paid for teaching, plus any free skiing is exactly that free. It is outragous to expect instructors to teach for free, once they've qualified. Only shadowed hours are done for free, with the observed Instructor being paid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| roga wrote: |
| Spyderman wrote: |
| Where did I imply that a SSS ASSI was a lower level than a SSE ASSI? |
You didn't actually, dunno what fevered state led me to say that
However SSE seem to think their ASSI is of a higher standard, dunno if they're correct or not but experience of the way they do theirs suggests to me that the additional 100 odd hours I mention above of mentoring and coaching might just lead to better results. However I have no direct experience of the SSS or BASI awards, I have only been told by an SSE coach, who apparently BASI tried to get on board, that the BASI award was of a shockingly low standard - in said person's opinion of course. |
I hold qualifications with both SSS, SSE, BASI & CSIA, so have experience of all of them. Our Summer training program is open to all of our instructors, the majority who attend are the SSS & BASI ones, the SSE ones seem to think further training isn't neccessary and just expect to pitch up at the start of the Winter season and deliver the same lessons they've been delivering for years. I've seen SSE Coaches who don't even put their Boots on.
| Quote: |
| I have just returned from the final day of a BASI L1 course. The pass/fail criteria are exactly the same as that for L2 although the standard is lower. The difference is in L1 being at the Late Practice phase, rather than in L2 being at the Early aquired phase. BASI operate a 0-6 learning phase, where 0= haven't got a clue, through to 6 which is fully autonomous. |
| Quote: |
| Forgive my ignorance but were you observing the course or delivering it? |
I was there to observe and help with the coaching. I delivered the 16 weekly 2 hour sessions for our new Instructor intake at Hemel, so I wanted to observe the Level and pass/fail criteria, so as to focus my delivery should I deliver another course.
| Quote: |
| The problems started with the home nations in England with the dissatisfaction with the SSE system and SSS starting to offer their BASI Central Theme based ASSI system in England. It proved a huge success, to the point that most ASSI courses in the UK were being run under the SSS system. |
| Quote: |
| I've only heard of the English based SSS courses that were being listed on the SSS website and that wasn't at that many venues as I recall - 5 to 10 maybe? Were there more English based SSS courses? |
Not sure, I only know SSS ASSI courses at Hemel were popular and regular.
| Quote: |
| How the Home nations now expect to offer one unified ASSI is beyond me. SSE & SSS are so poles apart, that it just won't happen., plus the conditions of the new unified ASSI will restrict each nation to operating in it's own country also. Good for SSE, but very bad for SSS. |
Yup, that was my thought too.
| Quote: |
It has now reached the October renewal of subscriptions and SSE & SSS find that more people than expected have decided to renew their membership, not with them, but with BASI instead. This has caused big financial concerns about their future revenue.
It's a panic measure from the home nations, that will end in disaster.
BASI will push on with the L1 award and now market it much more strongly than up to now. BASI have a strong reputation and are financially very sound. The L1 offers a clear path, whereas now taking a home nation ASSI leads pretty much to a confused dead end.
The courses are the same cost. I know which one I will be advising my Trainees to take. |
| Quote: |
| But again it'll surely depend on where you train as to what award you take. For example Gloucester are, and always have been to my knowledge, tied into the SSE award. They have an excellent ski school and there aren't many other options locally apart from The Avon Ski centre which did such a disastrous job with my daughter that I switched to Gloucester. Avon are now under new ownership and I believe trying to build up their ski school but I'm not sure what award they do. I suspect most people would opt for Gloucester though given it's reputation and there's nothing much else in the area so your choice is really only the SSE CI/ASSI. Surely therefore the success or failure of each award will depend far more on the number of centres offering each one rather than people shopping around? |
I agree with you, it really depends on your local slope as to what award they offer. Hemel is now very much in the BASI camp and previous to that SSS.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Spyderman wrote: |
| I hold qualifications with both SSS, SSE, BASI & CSIA, so have experience of all of them. Our Summer training program is open to all of our instructors, the majority who attend are the SSS & BASI ones, the SSE ones seem to think further training isn't neccessary and just expect to pitch up at the start of the Winter season and deliver the same lessons they've been delivering for years. I've seen SSE Coaches who don't even put their Boots on. |
I've heard there's a big variation in quality but the person in question, who has been around for a long time I should add, is not one of them - perhaps we're lucky in who we get, that could make a big difference.
| Quote: |
| I was there to observe and help with the coaching. I delivered the 16 weekly 2 hour sessions for our new Instructor intake at Hemel, so I wanted to observe the Level and pass/fail criteria, so as to focus my delivery should I deliver another course. |
Thanks for clarifying that 
| Quote: |
| Not sure, I only know SSS ASSI courses at Hemel were popular and regular. |
Sure, but I think SSE has enough venues to keep them in the game, at least for now, I think it's SSS that have the big problem now.
| Quote: |
| I agree with you, it really depends on your local slope as to what award they offer. Hemel is now very much in the BASI camp and previous to that SSS. |
It's a shame that we're now ending up in different camps though, whoever's to blame, and I suspect there could be blame all round, there should have been a better way to sort this out!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Spyderman, well done. your efforts are commendable. as a coach, you obviously care.
It would be nice if some our colleagues could adopt an open mind. the observation of delivery of a L1 course helps keep coach's, instructors current - and gives opportunity for the questioning of trainers as to methodology (if it isn't already obvious enough.)
Keeping up to date is the personal responsibility of the coach/instructor/teacher. Failing to do so not only fails themselves and their coachees.
A coach who fails to demonstrate - or even put his boots on is not worth the wax scrapings from a pair of South Arabian hire skis. A coach who fails to keep up to date or deems himself above such indignity - should put his skis away, sit in the pub and dream about the way things used to be. Arrogance can kill performance. And arrogance enthusiastically enthused... need I say more?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
roga, some of the SSE coaches ( the ones who deliver ASSI) where invited to attend BASI L1 orientation days. If BASI felt they ( the SSE coaches) could deliver the product, they where invited to the on snow training 16th October in Austria. A few ( mainly SSS coaches and 2 SSE coaches) got the invite. The rest didnt down to their lack of technical skiing skills. So, did the coaches you mention de-select him/herself, or was he/she not chosen?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
BG, Sorry dont mean to come across as a know it all and i have plenty to learn myself, skiing gates on plastic being one of them 
I may be alone in this view but I feel that there should be a single professional instructor pathway in the UK along side an amateur one to cater for clubs, schools, etc. The CI was designed as a "Club" instructor and the entry criteria are too low IMO to be classified as a "professional" instructor. CI's should be allowed to work on a volunteer basis when the public knows that is what they are getting. Before everyone shouts that there are tons of great CI's out there, I agree and that isnt my point. I'm sure that highly experienced CI's can run rings around a newly qualified ASSI/BASI L1. But the current system doesnt seem to reward continual improvement, if these long in the tooth CI's dont feel the need to do continual training to stay up to speed and advance their qualifications how can that be a good thing longer term?
If you bring johnny to a dry slope and pay your £X per hour for lessons you should be given an instructor with a minimum level of professional qualification. IMV the professsional pathway should start at ASSI/basi L1 and allow for teaching up to parallel on a closed environment. (now ducks and waits for bullets)
With multiple professional pathways we end up with the current mess of competing qualifications, lack of equivalence, duplicated effort and wasted money spent on admin as opposed to the grass roots....(see the modernisation paper)
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 1-10-07 10:24; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| elbrus wrote: |
| roga, some of the SSE coaches ( the ones who deliver ASSI) where invited to attend BASI L1 orientation days. If BASI felt they ( the SSE coaches) could deliver the product, they where invited to the on snow training 16th October in Austria. A few ( mainly SSS coaches and 2 SSE coaches) got the invite. The rest didnt down to their lack of technical skiing skills. So, did the coaches you mention de-select him/herself, or was he/she not chosen? |
That is interesting, are you saying that BASI only felt there were 2 SSE tutors up to scratch technically? That doesnt sound right to me given the numbers of dry slopes offering tutoring for SSE ASSI. If the L2 award is pitched at ASSI level does basis feel the bulk of tutors arent good enough technically:~/
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
| IMV the professsional pathway should start at ASSI/basi level 2 |
Surely you mean BASI L1 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Spyderman, oops sorry you are right
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, The tutors from SSE are first ADC qualifed, thats SSE top qualification. The ADC level is reasonable (about a good BASI level 2, somewhere between BASI L2 and ISIA). However, SSS tutors are all minimum ISIA or ISTD qualified. When BASI ran the training days some of the SSE tutors tecnical performance was in question! Some of them didnt ski at all. The SSE tutors that have been invited to the training ( with BASI on snow) are also ISTD s. The SSS tutors ( also invited ) are aslo ISIA or ISTD. I get the feeling that BASI want a minumum standard of technical performance from their tutors. The SSE guys may not have been at that level?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
elbrus, off topic but do you recon the L1 coach/ADC is between L2 and ISIA? I had heard it is at grade 2 tech pass level.
on topic perhaps BASI is not too bothered about all the negotiations with SSE as there is little to transfer over in terms of people or training systems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
skimottaret, ADC is not the same as L1 coach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
elbrus,
| Quote: |
I get the feeling that BASI want a minumum standard of technical performance from their tutors. The SSE guys may not have been at that level?
|
I see nothing wrong with that at all. The root of the problem regarding SSE ADC's may be down to the apparent inconsistency of standards employed in a few past courses. I understand Spyderman, may have have something he may wish to share with us on the subject. (Apologies if I've got it wrong.)
If SSE ASSI's have gone down the ADC route and have been passed off as fit to hold the qualification and apply for IVSI membership when they are perhaps not at the required standards is a failing ont he part of the Tutors involved.
The Tutors in such cases fail themselves, SSE, IVSI, the reputation of British Snowsports and the standards with which they have been entrusted to maintain. On top of all that, the candidate has been misled into believing his/her ability is much higher than it actually is - could this also point to a lack of an appropriate level of awareness on the part of the candidate?
Or are the Tutors employed simply not keeping themselves up to speed?
IMHO, the way forward is to join forces, adapt to the times and devlop a unified coaching/teaching/instruction model. At the very least have a UK version of interski every year or so: share ideas's; demonstrate methods and delivery and generally show off to each other. Above all, learn from each other.
And we all know what happens to dinosaurs that fail to adapt to an environment....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
skimottaret, ADC is taken after the ASSI, so you have to be an ASSI to start the ADC route. Its then a further 2 weeks "on snow" training, followed by a period where the candidate coaches. During this period the candidate coach creates a programme ( documented). the final award attracts the IVSI stamp, so should be at a similar level to ISIA. However, its unlikely your typical ADC in the SSE system ( there are about 90 I think) would pass a BASI ISIA level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Snowshark, I agree a system in the UK building from basic awards ( assi) to international awards is a good idea. The ADC coach award is a good qualification for whats its meant for. If it attracts the IVSI however, the standards must be consistant for all coaches. I think the ADC is set at about the right level, between BASI L2 and ISIA. Thats a realistic level for a part time coach to work towards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
monster77
monster77
Guest
|
|
The goal posts for the SSE ADC have been moved so much in the last 2-3 years, it close to becoming a mockery.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| rjs wrote: |
| skimottaret, ADC is not the same as L1 coach. |
Thanks, i was thinking of the APC as opposed to ADC (didnt know there was an ADC)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
monster77, I hear its like playing darts with a blind fold on whilst someone runs around with the dart board! Is this your experience?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| skimottaret, ADC is not the same as L1 coach. |
Thanks, i was thinking of the APC as opposed to ADC (didnt know there was an ADC) |
ADC description.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Not read all of this forum far too much BASI , ASSI, ADC, etc meta language going on but how damn difficult can it be to put together a ski instructor's course and qualification system! I did my level I CSIA a couple of seasons ago, plain, simple, straight forward, fun, customer focussed, cheap, didn't feel like I was getting fleeced. Surely this isn't rocket science, it's skiing, these guys need to focus or they'll drive potential customers (student instructors and punters) away to other organisations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
elbrus, My understanding is that the desired technical level is/was nearer BASI 2 / ISIA for the most recent assessment that I'm aware of.
SSE also introduced a Artificial Slope Coach Award which follows on from the ASSI and is/was an entry option for the ADC.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The SSE ADC is set at the right level now, as it has been recently raised substantially to a level now which IMO is between BASI L2 and ISIA. The problems arise from the existing SSE Coaches, in that the original technical standard was considerably lower, more like ASSI standard, with the emphasis on the Mental coaching skills and mentoring rather than actually being able to personally ski technically well. As a result there are light years between the skill levels in the technical performance requirements of a recently qualified ADC and one which passed years ago. The award is not removed once it is awarded, even though most of the established coaches wouldn't have a snowballs chance of gaining the qualification if they were to be assessed now.
Like BASI the performance bar is constantly being raised, but there is no requirement for existing award holders to become comparable in skill levels to those that have recently achieved the awards. Sure experience counts, but so does skill level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
david@mediacopy, Think you are right. I understand there was a course ran at the IVSI level in early 2006, then SSE ran another course and changed the content and the tutors. Not sure about the outcome of tha course.
Where would you put the ADC level? I think between BASI L2 and ISIA ( the current ADC). The early ones, about ASSI.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
elbrus,
| Quote: |
Where would you put the ADC level? I think between BASI L2 and ISIA ( the current ADC). The early ones, about ASSI.
|
| Quote: |
| as it has been recently raised substantially to a level now which IMO is between BASI L2 and ISIA. The problems arise from the existing SSE Coaches, in that the original technical standard was considerably lower, more like ASSI standard, |
That makes 2 of us that think that then.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| CI's should be allowed to work on a volunteer basis when the public knows that is what they are getting. |
Are you saying that they should be disallowed from getting paid? If so, whom by?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
