Pole Plants: Does the pole plant occur at the start, or the end, of a turn?

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Dypcdiver, yep, Russ is one of the youngest CSIA L4 examiners around, and he represented Canada at Interski 2007, along with his wife (also an outstanding CSIA L4 skier) Shocked

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veeeight, did you ever find the Interski video(s)?

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comprex, No, do you know where they are?

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No, though I haven't looked very hard.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Martin, good post, where have you been lately?!

..... psssst...... ankles....... kinetic chain........ NehNeh

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Martin Bell, Surely the point is that you should never throw the baby out with the bathwater. However the sort of crouch and stand up that Megamum has been told to do is not helpful IMO. the flexion and extension needs to come from the ankle first, thus any instructions to do anything that may produce a 'sitting' action has to be a bad thing.

NB: the ter, 'up unweighting' has changed it's meaning now. It no longer means an almost hop to lift the weight right off the skis to allow a big rotational movement ...

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GrahamN, we worked them hard, but it was a fun week!
Which is your club? Aldershot?

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Yep. Only downside was their dad was just bemoaning the fact that not having had that training himself brings forward the day when she'll outstrip him Sad

. He's just about coming to terms with not standing a chance against his son any longer (he did just manage to beat him once last year - but this year it's a completely lost cause).

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Judging by my own observation of tourists skiing, it is fairly immaterial WHEN they plant their poles - their skiing would improve dramatically by planting them at all!! The main difficulty most people have is that their hands are stationary somewhere near their hips causing their wieght to be too far back and them having to wiggle their @rse to turn. The pole-plant automatically gets their hands and weight forward and often gets them to stand more upright and bring their hips forward as well. I am not an instructor, this is just my observation.

Gordyjh, that's interesting because I reckon most peeps actually cause more problems with pole planting! They do get their hands forward but then let them drop back and this causes a huge rotation of the body... curious - I don't doubt your observations. If the unfortunate skier is actually taught to stand correctly in the first place, it doesn't matter (most of the time) whether their hands are by their sides or in front of the body - the trick is to get the body to stay in position with or without the aid of the hands.

You know it makes sense.

easiski,
I will obviously have to defer to your greater knowledge - as I say, I'm not an instructor. I do remember being told to imagine I was holding a tray of drinks which did prevent my hands dropping back.

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Gordyjh, Yes - I think the problem occurs when people just 'try' pole planting because they see everyone else do it, rather than be taught it! I don't doubt that your observtions will have merit, and will look out for this as soon as I'm back on the snow. Very Happy

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Coming to skiing via boarding I've always had an issue with poles, I use my arms a lot as I autonomously use them as counter-balance to body movement whether core induced or terrain provoked but basically my poles just dangle and give me tactile feedback as the tips drag down the landscape. My hands are usually forward of my torso and slightly spread in a balance position but watching good skiers (and I'm not in that group) it seems that actually "planting" a pole, in the sense of driving the tip into a designated place, isn't a description of what's happening. I see an almost casual, ineffectual waving that just touches the snow in a sort of 'punctuation point' to the turn. Are poles actually needed to ski well since the manoeuvre looks as though it could be accomplished just as well without the pole?

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Masque,
It is actually quite astonishing how difficult it is to ski sans poles!

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Masque, Yeah I think a lot of it is ingrained memory... Instructors that do not know me are usually very surprised when they take my poles off me and they discover I'm quite comfortable with that... I have spent many many hours skiing sans poles - "you ski with your feet"

Easiski and Fastman had me ski around with hands in all sorts of positions just to prove I can...

However I will add that poles do add an extra point of reference for your body's balance system to use.... It is easy to see this if you stick yourself in a position that challenges your balance - perhaps stand on a dyna disc with eyes shut.... and then do it again but have some vertical or horizontal surface near by (eg a wall) and tap your fingertip lightly onto that surface... The ligth touch is still sufficient to give your body an extra reference point and does help you to stay balanced...

So pole plants are helpful in flat light, steeps etc where you are in difficult situations... as they give you that extra help... note that many racers have a pole out as a "feeler" in pics of them...has same purpose as above...

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Masque, In many cases, with intermediate skiers they act as a sort of baby's comforter. I think pole planting is less important in beginning and intermediate skiers than it used to be, but just as important for better skiers as it ever was. It's very hard to ski bumps without poles .. Sad

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The pole plant (can) help create a moment of inertia, this well help the skier re direct the path of their skis. When the skis are moving through an arc, they will continue unless influenced by another action (internal (skier) external (another outside force). The pole plant can create a break in this tendency which allows the skier to make actions to re direct the skis. As the skier re directs the skis, it can be more efficient if they are in stacked stance above the skis so they can use the body whilst it is in its strongest and most efficient structural state. Plant as you changes edges, having created the most efficient stance.

Stacked does not mean upright! The feet are in a supporting role out to the side of a skier. Whilst the skier is in motion, the feet dont support the skier directly under the body. At this stage they are in transit under the COM.

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elbrus, it's just a "moment" or, more correctly, "moment of force" (force x perpendicular distance to pivot). A moment applied to a body will cause an angular acceleration, proportional to the moment and inversely proportional to the body's moment of inertia with respect to the axis of rotation. In rotational mechanics, moment is the analogue of force in linear mechanics, and moment of inertia the analogue of mass.

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laundryman, is that an agreement with my theory?

elbrus, it all sounds about right to me with the minor terminology change! Very Happy

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laundryman, thanks for that. Its good to read it in the most accurate form. In real easy terms, how would you explain that?

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I'm trying to learn how to pole plant again. I've sort of fallen out of the habit of using it, other than on steep or bumpy terrain. I see it as a good way to help re-centre myself when I get out of shape, as well as acting as a trigger for the transition into the next turn. Good for general balance as well. It was with considerable envy that I saw Euan and Dave throw in double pole plants during the EoSB race when they needed to keep on top of the skis and cope with the ruts and bumps that had built up in the soft snow. I just don't have that timing or fluidity in my pole plants, which are still kind of lumpen stabs into the snow.

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elbrus, I'd probably try to think of a more familiar analogy. The best I can come up with at the moment would be trundling down a moderate hill on a bike and touching a foot to the ground: you'd turn in that direction.

laundryman, but only if you shift your mass over the leg to apply force through that foot. If you stay centred over the bike and apply a force the bike will tip and turn away from the force. I think your analogy is inappropriate . . . unless I'm reading it incorrectly.

You know it makes sense.

Masque, I'm tempted to nip outside and try! You could probably get almost any effect with the right application, so I agree it's not the best of analogies. I was imaging just a quick dab.

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laundryman, The problem I think we all face is defining he influence that affect our balance, both positively and negatively. Head angulation to keep your eyes stable and horizontal (which, surprisingly, no-one has mentioned, tactile reference as little tiger has mentioned. . . there is a lot more going on in body movement than just where to point a pole. I'm really not sure that a pole is anything more than a balance aid . . . somewhat like a tightrope walker's . . . that has little practical, physical function in the transfer of forces between p'Tex and snow surface but is more just reference information for our brains to modify our body actions.

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I think I use my poles (moguls aside) to help get a rhythm going in my whole body, which would be more difficult if my arms were static or randomly flailing around. Presumably that's because I'm just a recreational skier, looking for rhythm in my turns, and not a racer where the placing of each turn is a great deal more critical.

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A lot about the pole plant is about moving one's hand. But really, on smooth moderate pitch, much of what people attributed to pole "plant" can be achieved by moving ones hand the same way as one would with a pole, a.k.a. "a phantom pole plant"! In fact, easier done WITHOUT the extra weight of the poles dangling from the wrist!

The only time I found pole plant NECESSARY is when the pole actually have to bear weight! Like in a jump turn. Or in the moguls when the pole is use to re-direct or re-balance the upper body.

Boarders don't carry poles. Yet, in my boarding lesson, we were taught to use our hands out as visual cue to direct our upper body. I suspect the same can be idea can be use for teaching skiers up to the intermediate level...

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abc, That makes sense to me.

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visual cues, visual cues, where did those Punjabi dance videos disappear to?

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From someone who's learned to ski in the past few years, I find it very helpful using my poles to initiate turns - particularly shorter, quicker turns. For long carving turns they seem to be a hindrance.

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Hurtle, I was taught to keep the pole tips always moving.... this is a timing aid....Timing the swing helps you time the movements that should be always happening but that many people do a bit of and then stop... and then repeat for next turn... So you need to have constantly increasing or decreasing edge angle to snow and constantly increasing or decreasing leg length(in some manner)... these may not be the easiest things to time. Our brains devote a lot of input to the sensory feel from the hands, so swinging the pole is much easier for our simple brains to time than the above... the others can be synchronised to the more easily controlled pole swing.

If you want my instructors philosophy on poles in a nutshell.
a) You ski with feet so learn to do that - ie drop the poles regularly(eg.hands on knees for short turns, schlopy drill etc)
b) If you are carrying some stuff around make it work for you at more time than just the lift line, so keep their tips moving or drag a tip lightly on snow(which is a feedback as per my previous post)

erica2004,

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Masque, I'd read laundryman's exercise as generating a yaw rather than the roll moment you appear to be thinking of - by virtue of the foot dragging on the ground. Agree it's probably not the best example though. As for terminology - FWIW I've normally used "turning moment" (even thought that's sort of tautology) as it does what it says on the tin,"moment" is a bit generic and confusing with the other non-technical meanings, and "moment of force" is a bit too obviously technical.

elbrus propably one of the best demonstrations of the difference between a (turning) moment and a linear force is when trying to get a stiff nut undone (e.g. a wheelnut). You can either strain yourself with the pathetic wheelbrace given free with the car, or take it much easier by using a bigger spanner! (a smaller force applied further from the pivot point producing a larger turning effect). And the best demonstrations of the effect of moments of intertia is when a skater speeds up by pulling in his/her arms. The rotational (angular) momentum is conserved as the moment of inertia is decreased by a corresponding increase in the angular velocity (i.e. they spin faster).

GrahamN, yep: that's what I had in mind.

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Pole Plants: Does the pole plant occur at the start, or the end, of a turn?

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