 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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abc, if you've been "unlearning" then you're dumping ideas that you could find useful.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| veeeight wrote: |
Just as important as skills & technique, is intent/attitude.
If you put yourself in a Level 5 group, you should come prepared mentally to ski bumps/moguls, powder, trees etc. Again, this is where many people come unstuck, they sign up for a Level 5, but aren't willing to go off the groomers... |
Absolutely. At this level (and as far as I'm concerned) the only time a 'groomer' is interesting is when there are gates on it - or it's being used for drills.
However, apologies for dragging this off topic, as I think this is probably stretching the definition of 'intermediate' beyond the sensible (at least in the context of amateur skiing).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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abc, have another look, there is no "carve" in the level 3 description, in fact it doesn't come in until level 5.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| comprex wrote: |
| abc, have another look, there is no "carve" in the level 3 description, in fact it doesn't come in until level 5. |
I'm talking about boarding (V8 only posted the "description" for skiing). The video shows clearly the board was way up on edge during the turn. It's got to carve at that angle whether the boarder intend it or not.
That aside, I'm sure 'carving' is expected before level 5 even for skiers.
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Well, until we see the skill level list for snowboards we can't say what level you'd be. As with most exams, it's probably bad to read into the question things that aren't written there.
| abc wrote: |
That aside, I'm sure 'carving' is expected before level 5 even for skiers. |
Why are you sure? If you read level 4 carefully, there is no skill that requires outside edge management or pressured two-footed skiing.
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Level 3: I can consistently link snowplow turns or ski in a wide parallel stance on easy terrain.
* I can traverse across easy slopes on one ski and sideslip easily
* I can skate on flat terrain and hockey stop on both sides
* My skis are parallel throughout a turn on intermediate terrain
* I am ready for Level 4
Level 4: I am able to ski parallel turns with a pole plant on easy blue runs.
* I can make small, medium and long round turns on blue runs
* I keep my balance and link turns in small bumps and powder
* I am able to ski round turns on the easiest black runs
* I am ready for Level 5
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All easily done by lifting the inside ski.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| comprex wrote: |
Level 3: I can consistently link snowplow turns or ski in a wide parallel stance on easy terrain.
* I can traverse across easy slopes on one ski and sideslip easily
* I can skate on flat terrain and hockey stop on both sides
* My skis are parallel throughout a turn on intermediate terrain
* I am ready for Level 4
Level 4: I am able to ski parallel turns with a pole plant on easy blue runs.
* I can make small, medium and long round turns on blue runs
* I keep my balance and link turns in small bumps and powder
* I am able to ski round turns on the easiest black runs
* I am ready for Level 5
All easily done by lifting the inside ski. |
I wonder if the description is written at the time of "straight skis" when only the "advanced" skiers are expected to carve.
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abc, the description may well have been written to accomodate all the hundreds, thousands of skiers who stopped updating their skills before 1996, who happily skied all over the world for decades on who knows what terrain using their bulletproof skid, and who could justifiably feel insulted, frustrated, piσσed on when told to join the beginner classes.
Smart move on their part, I'd say.
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight, I found the video clips something I could really relate to and going by that scheme I'd say I was a level 3 (though I need to master that side slip the next time I get near some snow)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just a reminder that the descriptions of types of runs shown in the clips are Canadian-based. So, IMO, a green run there is equivalent to a green/easy blue in Europe. A blue run there is equivalent to harder blue/easy red. And a single black diamond equivalent to more difficult red/easy black. As a vast generalisation 
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Poster: A snowHead
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cathy, don't go there!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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cathy, Does it further compound the can of worms if I ask whether an attempt has ever been made globally standardise on hill definitions and if not why not?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, aaagghhhhh no - as T Bar says!  The grading of runs may not even be standardised in a resort, never mind in a country. A blue run may just indicate the easier route down from a lift compared with the black run down.
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What's this obsession with "carving"?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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abc, I've just watched the level 4 part of the video again and I don't think he is carving, on the second turn the board definately skids round and towards the end the trail left by the board isn't the single narow line indicative of carving. Looking at the later levels only in the final clip are there some truely carved turns, especially the section in the bumps which is very clinical. Compare the path the board takes through the turn, partculary at the end of the turn to these guys http://www.extremecarving.com/movies/movies.html ignoring their crazy body posistions the board doesn't wash out at the end of the turn. It's not that the board isn't on edge but the edge doesn't maintain a firm grip all the way round.
If the other edge wasn't raised it would catch and the rider would get one of those nasty slams that everyone takes when they try boarding, it's more noticable on a board as it's wider but you also get a clear view of the base of skis when the skier is using wide skis. Slope angle also plays a part here.
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Swirly, well, you're right the guy didn't carve. Though I would still say if a boarder can get the board up on edge, carving simply comes naturally. It's holding that carve in varying surface condition that might be tricky. By and large, boarder don't need to be constantly reminded to carve or so much emphasize on how.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think you guys have an extremely limited definition of the concept of carving here...... and is the source of endless debate!
Is the rider on the L4 video displaying a good steering blend, getting performance out of the board, using the torsional characteristics ? Is the rear of the board being "ruddered" around, is he "kicking" the rear foot to steer? Or is the board describing an arc, using it's edges in a good blend?
The term "carving" does not equate to a pencil thin line.
For me, someone can describe a pencil thin line on a board (or lines on skis) - depending how they do this, I might accuse them of not "carving", and just be riding the sidecut, or park and riding.
Additionally - what we teach at WB lessons is an all mountain techinque - so whilst the extreme end of the scale of carving would be suitable for groomers, if you look at the terrain at L5 and L6 - it would be quite inappropriate. Carving is in L4/5, but is not, and shouldn't be the focus as the "only" way to turn if you're trying to achieve an all mountain technique.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| veeeight wrote: |
I think you guys have an extremely limited definition of the concept of carving here...... and is the source of endless debate!
Is the rider on the L4 video displaying a good steering blend, getting performance out of the board, using the torsional characteristics ? Is the rear of the board being "ruddered" around, is he "kicking" the rear foot to steer? Or is the board describing an arc, using it's edges in a good blend?
The term "carving" does not equate to a pencil thin line.
For me, someone can describe a pencil thin line on a board (or lines on skis) - depending how they do this, I might accuse them of not "carving", and just be riding the sidecut, or park and riding.
Additionally - what we teach at WB lessons is an all mountain techinque - so whilst the extreme end of the scale of carving would be suitable for groomers, if you look at the terrain at L5 and L6 - it would be quite inappropriate. Carving is in L4/5, but is not, and shouldn't be the focus as the "only" way to turn if you're trying to achieve an all mountain technique. |
Good a further can of worms  As the maggots say "(Grabs beer & popcorn)"
For what its worth V8 and I know my opinion doen't count for much I've never understood the obsession with "pure" carving. Good in a race situation or for the hardbooted snowboarders in being able to show off by turing in uphill circles but downright dangerous on most recreational slopes.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Good in a race situation |
Yes it is, but the innovaters (eg: Bode a few years back) spends much of his time on a flat ski drifting as well
That is one man that can go just as fast drifting (and locking (his edges) to get the line when appropriate) as someone else can whilst "carving".......
As you say, it is a big can of worms re how you define "carve".
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You know it makes sense.
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| comprex wrote: |
Whitegold, completely disagree, consistency is the catchword.
Consistency faced with varied terrain, consistency faced with varied conditions of that terrain, consistency faced with fatigue, consistency faced with varied fitness level and training, consistency faced with gear in various condition.
Every whinge about any of the above (too icy, too crusty, too heavy, too steep, too bumped, too tired, too fat "out of shape", edges too dull), remove one level from self-estimate. |
Control and consistency are the same thing.
If you are consistent, you are in control of your planks. And vice versa.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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veeeight, you should post on EpicSki!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I think you guys have an extremely limited definition of the concept of carving here......
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Well then, V8 will enlighten us what's the proper definition of carving as WB ski/board school uses?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So here I am, with the thanksgiving turkey in front of me. My assembled guests of various skiers on the intermediate plateau, snowboarders, racers, instructors are all eagerly waiting for the succulent dinner, sat around the table. With a flourish I produce my 12" carving knife. After a few cursory strokes on the sharpening iron, I'm ready.
First - the the breast meat. The first cut is easy. A slither of breast meat is neatly sliced off the outermost part of the breast. I ask the assembled crowd if they thought that that was a carving action.
Unanimously, they shout yes. I am showered with compliments. "Great slicing action", "Nice angle of the blade", "Nice clean cut", "Superb consistency of thickness throughout the cut", etc.
The next few slices of the turkey are the same, the applause gets louder, the slices are coming off like pieces of art. The applause continues, someone shouts "Superb carving" - raptuous applause.
Suddenly, I approach near the ridge of the breastbone. I know the terrain changes, and I also know I want to maximise the amount of meat I need to take off, whilst producing slices.
I take a deep breath, and change the angle of my knife slightly throughout the cut, to follow the contours of the turkey.
Half the room falls silent. Sotto Voce, some voices can be heard to whisper "he's not carving that turkey anymore". Uproar ensues. Half the room are suddenly arguing with the other half. Mayhem.
I pick out various cries:
"But he's not maintaing perfectly symmetrical slices of equal thickness anymore"
"He's changing the angle of the knife"
"Not only that, but he's now rocking the blade forwards and backwards to deal with the terrain"
"The slices don't look perfect anymore, he's not carving"
"He *is* carving, I still see a slicing motion"
"Of course he is, he hasn't pushed the knife sideways to tear and rip the meat!"
"He's not hacking or chopping at the meat, he's still producing slices, so of course the turkey is being carved"
"No no no, only perfectly thin and consistent slices of breast meat can be carved, anything else isn't carving and doesn't constitute a carved piece of meat"
It's clear to me that this will never get resolved. I start on the other breast, but no-one notices. They are still too busy arguing about the perfect carved slice.
I reach calmly for a thigh portion, I never did like the breast portion anyway.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Still at least I'm an intermediate now - whatever that actually means . |
Sorry to break this to you, but I doubt many people would agree, based just on what you have posted about your skiing.
AIUI (please correct me if I'm wrong), all your skiing in the mountains to date has been on just 2-3 runs, all graded blue, and you sound like you still sometimes have difficulty with those.
Regardless of your style of skiing, any intermediate should be able to comfortably ski just about any blue they will find in Europe, and at least be able to get down a good proportion of the reds in reasonable control. Unless you feel able to ski at least some of the red runs, you really aren't an intermediate yet.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Jo225, glad someone liked it! Maybe I'll post it on Epic. 
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veeeight, 
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veeeight, well quite and while we can't even agree on a defination of carve how the hell are we expected to define an intermediate? Moreover, my argument is it should be learnt much earlier in the repertoire of snowboarding turns for the exact reason you mention: you can't do it everywhere and there are othe techniques to learn.
fatbob, because it's fun and although it could be dangerous on a very crowded piste providing they're in control one should be aware enough of their surroundings to be able to react to anything. One of the reasons for letting a board wash out on the ends of a turn is to scrub off speed generated in the turn which is what I presume the guy is doing in the level 5 clip, however, this should be something to learn after learning to keep the board completely on edge.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, I am sorry to say that i am with alex_heney, if i were you i would go in for the second level beginners lessons, or the very first intermediate level lessons. You have a good solid technique starting but you dont want to get into too steep of terrain just yet. continue to improve your technique on green/blue runs until you are very confident on that type of terrain.
basic plough/parallel turns on a Green run (MK is only 15 degrees at the top tapering off to 11) doesnt really get you to the exhalted status of "intermediate".
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FAQ
Snowboarder don't have to learn TWO totally different way of turning as they progress through the dreaded "intermediate" level. Oh well, that's a totally different rant.
).
) sprawling on the snow. Ouch! That hurts. 
