 Poster: A snowHead
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| ysb33r wrote: |
| ketya77 wrote: |
Just wanted to add:
If to consider places included in the Ikon pass (Zermatt, Chamonix, Kitzbuhel, Dolomiti, and Grandvalira) I wonder which meet more of our criteria than the others. If none of them really meet them, we can skip the pass for the next season.
Also, we will be limited by spending no more than a week, maybe 8 days on the trip, so the longer it'll take for us to get to the destination, with connected flights, trains, buses, the less we'll have to ski. |
Are you sure about Grandvalkira still being including on Epic pas?. As an Andorran season pass holder, we only have skiing day access to Deer Valley & Steamboat. |
I don't know about the Epic pass, but it is included in the Ikon pass. 5 days in Ordino Arcalís, Pal Arinsal, and Grandvalira.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Cheapski wrote: |
Lufthansa charges ($150 each way) for ski transport from/to USA ... just saying ...
Swiss does not, skis fly free. |
It's $285 per passenger one way with Lufthansa. With three pairs of skis and a snowboard it adds up quickly.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Right, "Long intercontinental route" ... ouch !
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We did British airways to Japan in January and they allowed 2 checked bags per passenger. We used the second Chechen bag for skis. They were quite happy with 2 pairs per bag as well. I suspect they do San Francisco to Venice with a change in London but bags checked through all the way.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@ketya77, @tatmanstours is the OG Saalbach guru so will let him answer on snow etc round Saalbach and Fieberbrunn.
Fieberbrunn is a stop in the freeride world tour, and mostly red runs, so probably better for the boarder? That's a guess though!
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| Snowshoer wrote: |
- European lift lines seem like unmanaged chaos at first, but things usually sort themselves out by the time you get to the "starting gate".
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LOL. Never forgotten the words of our British instructor who was long term resident in Andorra. “Ski like you mean it; queue like you mean it!”
British politeness doesn’t get you far in European ski queues. Especially when there are local youngsters around.
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If you find big lift queues in mid January you've probably gone to the wrong resort. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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“Munich is easy to reach, we have non-stop flights there by Lufthansa. The resort looks family friendly and nice. The only thing that may be considered negative is that they have more blue runs than red and black combined, and none of us need blue runs.
I wonder what's with snow coverage their in the beginning of January...“
@ketya77, If you send me a private message with your email address I will gladly send you an information pack, including my comprehensive guide to the area.
The Ski Circus is so extensive that I doubt whether you would struggle to find suitable ski runs. Although there is a high proportion of blue runs, some are more challenging than others. Many are too difficult for nervous early intermediates, being more like reds.
Snow coverage in January is usually excellent. The season starts at the beginning of December, and in a snow-drought season adequate coverage by say mid-December is guaranteed by extensive snowmaking.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hello everyone,
Just to preliminary narrow things down after reading all comments (I am amazed at how many nice people on this forum!).
1. I think we can remove Kitzbuhel from the equation. The reasons - snow coverage in the beginning of January, comments about nouveau riches vibe, and comments about it not being good for snowboarding. The only plus is that it's included in the Ikon pass, but it's not enough to keep it.
2. We should move Zermatt down the list. The reasons - expensive, can be very cold and windy (we are used to ski in California, which most often means around 0 degree Celsius when we ski, so I am not sure it will be fun for kids to ski when it's really cold)
3. We should also move St. Anton down the list even though many commenters liked it. The reasons - comments about the town being maybe too lively and noisy for our taste, plus it's not on the Ikon.
3. It seems that everyone likes Dolomiti and I think it's one of the finalists. The reasons - best snowmaking so we will able to ski for sure, large network of runs, nice food, included in the Ikon so no paying for ski passes. In theory, we can get to Venice by Swiss with a stop in Zurich.
4. I think Saalbach is one of the finalists, too. The reasons - @tatmanstours said that Saalbach would have almost all the boxes on our list checked, seems to be family oriented. The cons are that it's not covered by the Ikon, and the lodging, based on what I see on booking.com seems to be more expensive and scarce than in other places, and flying to Munich means flying by Lufthansa that charges for skis so much that it makes it not practical to bring my own skis.
What do you think? Am I moving in the right direction?
More questions:
1. Questions regarding Dolomiti:
a) Dolomiti consists of many resorts. Which one would be a better fit based on our checklist? Where should we stay?
b) What would be the best options to get to Dolomiti from Venice airtport? What is the latest time when our flight to Venice should arrive in order to get to Dolomiti without staying a night in Venice?
c) Do we need a car in Dolomiti?
2. Questions regarding Saalbach:
a) is it good for snowboarding?
b) they say a lot about freeriding. What does freeriding mean in Europe if different from the U.S.?
3. General question:
a) One way to make this trip less tight time-wise is to use some of the days of the school winter break. It seems that all lodging both in Dolomiti and Saalbach have check-in/check-out on Saturdays or Sundays. That means that, in theory, we could plan to check in on Saturday, Dec 30 (I assume that the week before that will be very expensive because it's Christmas). Does it make send to spend the New Year there? Is it also expensive and crowdy? Is there any celebrations on the New Year eve that would add to the experience? Or it's better to check in one Saturday later on Jan 6?
Thank you!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ketya77 wrote: |
| It seems that everyone likes Dolomiti and I think it's one of the finalists. The reasons - best snowmaking so we will able to ski for sure, large network of runs, nice food, included in the Ikon so no paying for ski passes. In theory, we can get to Venice by Swiss with a stop in Zurich. |
Well if you fly with Swiss then they offer free ski carriage in addition to your checked hold bag (at least on the European leg from Zurich to Venice, best to check if it includes the transatlantic leg from San Francisco to Zurich). This page says "The first ski/snow equipment is free of charge in addition to the standard free baggage allowance on all LX operated flights (including wetlease). The fee only applies if it exceeds the free baggage allowance in weight and/or number of pieces. Does not apply to codeshare flights or combined flights with other airlines from, to or via the USA."
| ketya77 wrote: |
More questions:
1. Questions regarding Dolomiti:
a) Dolomiti consists of many resorts. Which one would be a better fit based on our checklist? Where should we stay? |
There are several excellent places to stay on the Sella Ronda circuit. However the snowHeads organised Birthday Bash (this year we had about 160 of us on the trip!) always stays in Arabba. It's located directly on the Sella Ronda circuit and is the closest place to stay on the Sella Ronda to the Marmolada mountain (well worth a visit in good weather). Also it has the advantage that the Arabba tourist office organise subsidised coach transfers from Venice airport to Arabba (the discount applies if you are staying in accommodation in Arabba). On the snowHeads Birthday Bash people stay on half board at the Hotel Portavescovo or the cheaper Garni Bellavista about 7 minutes walk away which is owned by the hotel, people staying in the Bellavista have their breakfast there but have their evening meals in the hotel Portavescovo and have full use of the facilities there (ski and boot lockers, pool etc).
| ketya77 wrote: |
b) What would be the best options to get to Dolomiti from Venice airtport? What is the latest time when our flight to Venice should arrive in order to get to Dolomiti without staying a night in Venice? |
As previously mentioned Arabba Fodom organise transfers from Venice airport (if you're using Swiss or any other major airline apart from Ryanair then they'll be using Venice Marco Polo airport). The coach transfers from Venice Marco Polo takes about 3 hours and they go on Saturdays and Sundays, usually at 1pm and 6pm. On the return from Arabba the coaches usually leave Arabba at 6am and 10am.
| ketya77 wrote: |
c) Do we need a car in Dolomiti? |
Absolutely not, you can get around everywhere using lifts and skiing/snowboarding, with one exception. If you do the Hidden Valley run from Lagazuoi (recommended) then you ski to Armentarola where there is a well organised continuous stream of taxis and buses (all charging the same fare, I think 6 Euros per person from memory, for the 20 minute road trip from Armentarola to Passo Falzarego where you get the cable car (aerial tram) up to Lagazuoi.
| ketya77 wrote: |
3. General question:
a) One way to make this trip less tight time-wise is to use some of the days of the school winter break. It seems that all lodging both in Dolomiti and Saalbach have check-in/check-out on Saturdays or Sundays. That means that, in theory, we could plan to check in on Saturday, Dec 30 (I assume that the week before that will be very expensive because it's Christmas). Does it make send to spend the New Year there? Is it also expensive and crowdy? Is there any celebrations on the New Year eve that would add to the experience? Or it's better to check in one Saturday later on Jan 6? |
Accommodation may be a bit more expensive over the New Year, best to check with the hotel. On New Year's Eve it's usual in most ski resorts for their to be fireworks at midnight to celebrate the New Year. 
Just to add that this year they were offering a 5% online discount for the Dolomiti Superski liftpasses
Hope this helps. 
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@johnE, Jet2, EasyJet, Ryanair all operating direct flights from UK to Venice this winter season.
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You know it makes sense.
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If it were an early season choice between Austria and Italy for piste cruising, then a major factor for me would be how sure and of what quality the snow conditions were likely to be.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PeakyB wrote: |
| If it were an early season choice between Austria and Italy for piste cruising, then a major factor for me would be how sure and of what quality the snow conditions were likely to be. |
And which would score better?
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Poster: A snowHead
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New Year is generally busier and more expensive than Christmas. The following week is much quieter and cheaper.
The Dolomiti areas
I’ve only stayed in villages in Alta Badia but generally drop the kids to ski school and often ski in Arabba, it’s very quick to get there. There are lots of blacks, generally at the easy end of the spectrum, and reds in Arabba. You can ski all round the Sella Ronda on fairly straightforward reds. The steepest slopes are at Arabba.
Val Gardena is more mixed and has some long black runs, some reasonably hard runs and lots of easier reds. There is a long easy blue through the ski area doing the clockwise SR but IME you mainly ski on reds. But, it’s furthest from Venice, easier from Innsbruck or Verona!
In Val di Fassa it seems like the villages are a bit more remote from the ski area, might be wrong, it’s just that you ski above them when passing through and there’s only 1 run, at Canazei, to village level so I’ve never seen the villages here. I think this is the easiest area to drive to from Venice. Easier red runs generally on and around the Sella Ronda route.
Alta Badia is blue run foodie scenic heaven. Lunch on the slopes in the sun marvelling at the scenery from the terrace is the reason to come here. Lots of interconnected blue runs and a decent red and black into La Villa that are well worth the detour. The different villages have there own pros and cons. San Cassiano was very quiet. More Michelin stars than bars but even the cheaper restaurants were exceptional.
Car hire in Italy is usually cheap and the way to go if there isn’t a decent bus. The road network also joins all the villages together here so in the worst case, you can always go and collect a wayward teen. This is definitely not true in some European ski areas! But skiing this area, the car won’t move much. There’s a huge area joined up by lifts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@ketya77,
| Quote: |
PeakyB wrote:
If it were an early season choice between Austria and Italy for piste cruising, then a major factor for me would be how sure and of what quality the snow conditions were likely to be.
And which would score better?
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There have been 'too many for comfort' poor snow starts to European ski seasons this century for my liking. The last 20 years of the 20c too, for that matter.
I think you're saying you'd be skiing first half of January.
There are ski areas with glaciers in Austria and some higher, relatively snow sure towns, like St Anton (+the nearby Arlberg valley towns) and Obergurgl. Whether the majority of ski areas in Austria have a high probability of good snow in early January is debatable. If choosing Austria, and travelling as far as you'll be for 1 week, I'd look for places with excellent artificial snowmaking infrastructure.
Same in Italy. For me, much of Italy is as risky for early snow conditions as Austria. The Dolomiti Superski area seems to have nailed it when it comes to artificial snow production and piste snow- management techniques.
If you were arriving at the end of January, the risk of poor conditions across the Alps would be greatly reduced. Any earlier, play the percentages on snow cover, is my advice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've flown transatlantic on Lufthansa and taken a ski bag as my hold bag with no additional fees.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Same in Italy. For me, much of Italy is as risky for early snow conditions as Austria.
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And the same applies to many of the lower (and more "charming") French resorts too. That's why I suggested deciding on a flight, then being prepared to make a last minute choice of destination/accommodation. The later you leave it in January, the more snow is likely to have fallen, the less of a gamble it is. But this shocking year showed that there are no guarantees.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pam w,
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That's why I suggested deciding on a flight, then being prepared to make a last minute choice of destination/accommodation.
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+1, that's exactly what I'd do, even for a group of up to 6.
However, I can see why for a group travelling nearly 6000 miles, the thought of not booking accommodation until, say, a week before departure, could be nerve-wracking.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| PeakyB wrote: |
@pam w,
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That's why I suggested deciding on a flight, then being prepared to make a last minute choice of destination/accommodation.
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+1, that's exactly what I'd do, even for a group of up to 6.
However, I can see why for a group travelling nearly 6000 miles, the thought of not booking accommodation until, say, a week before departure, could be nerve-wracking. |
Another option would be to book cancellable (& refundable) accommodation, using a website like hotels.com. You could then make a late decision to go elsewhere.
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| PeakyB wrote: |
@pam w,
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That's why I suggested deciding on a flight, then being prepared to make a last minute choice of destination/accommodation.
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+1, that's exactly what I'd do, even for a group of up to 6.
However, I can see why for a group travelling nearly 6000 miles, the thought of not booking accommodation until, say, a week before departure, could be nerve-wracking. |
And not only that. The chances to get cheaper air tickets are higher if booking in advance and non-refundable. For instance, right now I can buy tickets San Francisco - Venice for about 800-900 dollars for the flight on Dec 28, 2023-Jan 07, 2024. If looking at the flights in a couple of weeks from now, the price is 1900 dollars.
Also, quadruple rooms are in scarce supply unlike single or doubles, so we may end up without lodging if waiting for too long.
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@ketya77,
to clarify, @pam w, suggested getting flights booked early.
It was suggested the precise location of base and accommodation that could wait until 'last minute'. As I think has been mentioned, if you avoid the week that New Year falls in, accommodation availability for late bookings (and bargains) is always plentiful in European ski areas.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Jet2, EasyJet, Ryanair all operating direct flights from UK to Venice this winter season.
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I can also get a direct flight from Birmingham to elsewhere in Italy. Just not Venice.
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@johnE, I got a Sat afternoon direct flight from BHX-VCE a few weeks ago on Ryanair…but we digress.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| PeakyB wrote: |
@ketya77,
to clarify, @pam w, suggested getting flights booked early.
It was suggested the precise location of base and accommodation that could wait until 'last minute'. As I think has been mentioned, if you avoid the week that New Year falls in, accommodation availability for late bookings (and bargains) is always plentiful in European ski areas. |
But to buy tickets, I need to understand whether to buy tickets to Venice for Dolomiti or to Munich for Austria.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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For the combination of charm, a snowy village, and the type of skiing you're looking for, Ski Arlberg (St.Anton and even better: Lech) is probably best.
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@ketya77, true, or if you could land in Innsbruck, which is an experience in itself, you can flex between the Dolomites and a decent amount of Austria, fairly easily.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Langerzug, I like the whole Arlberg area and can certainly see that Lech / Zurs could meet the OPs preferences.
Not so sure about St Anton, which is where the majority of accommodation is. Bit gnarly and loud?
Certainly good for access from Zurich.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PeakyB wrote: |
| @ketya77, true, or if you could land in Innsbruck, which is an experience in itself, you can flex between the Dolomites and a decent amount of Austria, fairly easily. |
We have non-stop flights to Munich, Zurich, Frankfurt (and London, of course). Search for flights to Innsbruck will mostly show flights to Munich, and when it'll show Innsbruck as destination, it will be a strange and expensive stopover through other bigger airport.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Having in the past flown from Asia to Europe for skiing holidays with children I would not wish to do a two stage flight and then a transfer.
Personally I found Zurich a great destination for several resorts, you can get readily to Swiss resorts and several Western Austrian resorts by train.
Innsbruck is a fine destination for a short haul flight but long haul you have to transfer airports and Innsbruck itself has a bit of a reputation for closures.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Also, quadruple rooms are in scarce supply unlike single or doubles, so we may end up without lodging if waiting for too long.
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The kind of lodging you want does bear some thought. As a massive generalisation, you get more choice of hotels in Austria and Italy and more choice of self-catering apartments in France. French rented places range from cheap, crampled, "rabbit hutches" to luxury pads, and everything in between. You will also get more choice of "ski in/out" accommodation in France, though that will often mean accepting that if you are up a mountain with guaranteed snow outside your door, you are not in a charming traditional village.
If you book a flight to a hub like Munich, Zurich or Geneva you will have a range of high and low altitude resorts available to you.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@ketya77, while there are some strong advocates on this site of booking late, it's not what the majority do and runs the risk that you don't end up with accommodation you're happy with in a resort you want to be in. This year in particular, I've heard suggestions that occupancy rates are relatively high and late availability limited in some resorts. From personal experience, I booked a trip for next week roughly a month ago and was surprised how limited my options were for sensibly priced accommodation. Booking late probably works fine if you're very flexible about your accommodation.
If I was flying halfway across the globe I'd want to get my accommodation and transfers from the airport sorted early. That way I could relax and enjoy learning about where I'm going. There are good options from both Zurich and Munich.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Booking late probably works fine if you're very flexible about your accommodation.
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True. And booking early for a non-high altitude resort works fine if you're flexible about snow cover. You simply can't have it all.
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There are good options from both Zurich and Munich.
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And Geneva!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
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There are good options from both Zurich and Munich.
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And Geneva! |
Yes, but there don't appear to be direct flights to Geneva for the OP.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Honestly, if I lived close to somewhere that was reasonable to ski, there’s no way that I’d commit to travelling to Europe in winter in January this far in advance, the snow record is just not reliable enough any more.
The problem with picture book alpine ski resorts is that in winter if there isn’t much snow, then they’re pretty dreary and boring.
If I wanted to see the Alps at their best, I’d come in summer, where there are far more options for things to do, and the scenery is pretty much guaranteed to be breathtaking.
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in winter if there isn’t much snow, then they’re pretty dreary and boring.
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true. I used to drive through Megeve a lot. At resort level in winter the "snow" was most often seen in the form of blackened heaps along the side of the road, decorated at random with dog turds.
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Even Zermatt, one of my favourite, and one of the most beautiful, places in the world, looks pretty dreary in winter without much snow. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Also, if I had a teenager who had been brought up on riding in-bounds in North America, there’s no way I’d let them ride on their own in Europe, it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
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FAQ
It's not totally Courmeyeur though. 
Having said that, I once sauntered gently down a little gully in La Rosiere, without a care in the world, and turned a corner to see my 15 year old sitting on the bank beside his snowboard, smoking. 
