I reckon where you learnt to ski has a direct bearing on which style you lean towards too.
When we had some lessons in Austria the nice Austrian Instructor chappie took one look at us and the converstaion went like this ...
"You learnt to ski in France didn't you?"
"Er...yes, why?"
"It shows" he replied with a huge dollop of distain!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
Like I said to @boarder2020, and now to @Chaletbeauroc, you have not used it, nor do you know understand what the details of the metrics are yet you feel that you can criticise something that you have demonstrated that you have no real understanding of, like I said, it's like reviewing a movie when based on hearsay when you've not actually seen it.
I worked with that technology for years. I know it's strength and limitations. The fact that carv can't possibly know what the rest of your body is doing is surely an obvious limitation? For example a pro skier could ski down with their hands behind their back and carv wouldn't know, in fact it would probably give them an excellent score.
I think we are being fair on carv. We've both acknowledged it has some positives. But pointed out there are limitations. Rather than counter-arguing my proposed limitations backed in science and real world examples you just say "well you can't know, you never used it".
I suspect you could look at a road bike and based on its weight, components, materials etc. give a decent opinion on how good it is, and what it might not do so well? You certainly don't need to have used something to know some of its limitations, especially if you know the technology behind it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jedster wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
jedster wrote:
Surely what she was doing was more of a drill? Or might be appropriate for very even bumps? What is develops is the ability to switch edges in an instant. In practice, in a normal, uneven, organic bump field you are going to switch in response to the bumps not at a constant pace?
Great skill and great to watch
I don't think it was a drill, or specifically for evenly spaced bumps, but a technique for skiing with your legs so close together. I've seen Deb Armstrong videos with the mogul coach in the clip above, skiing what he preaches in normal mogul fields.
I didn't mean the skiiing with legs together I meant the constant rhythmic lead switching
I didn't intend to say you were - but the need to Lead Change is as a result of having the legs so close together. If you are not getting it "For Free", then you have to exaggerate it somewhat...and as highlighted earlier, it allows the D/Hill knee to tuck in behind the U/Hill one.
For example a pro skier could ski down with their hands behind their back and carv wouldn't know, in fact it would probably give them an excellent score.
But doesn't that just show that good carving is not dependent on what you do with your arms?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
greengriff wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
@greengriff, it's almost like there isnt an optimal technique, but many ways to successfully accomplish the task of skiing
As well as performance and efficiency we can also consider comfort and injury risk.
It would be interesting to compare the bodies of those using different techniques. For example Asians tend to have shorter femurs than Caucasians, does that influence it at all? Should we be prescribing different techniques for women to men, when they clearly have very different hip structure and are more prone to ACL injuries due to higher q-angle?
There are so many more questions than answers around this whole topic of technique.
Fascinating points! Surely though, if not an 'optimal' technique, there is a 'window' or 'range' of stuff that objectively works better for a measurable goal (e.g. getting down a racecourse fastest, or skiing moguls without screwing up your knees)?
First you have to determine what optimum actually is! Performance is the obvious one - although even defining that is difficult. Why was the gold medal downhill winner the fastest? Was it technique? Was it equipment? Was his line choice better?
For recreational skiers, comfort, lower forces (less likelihood of injury), efficiency may be more important.
We are at a level where we can model closed movements and run decent simulations that can give us an idea. However, in something dynamic like skiing where the environment is constantly changing and there are so many variables interacting with each other, it's way too complicated.
The problem is the human body has a huge amount of redundancy. Take something as "simple" as touching your nose with your index finger. There are billions of possible combinations of joint angles between your finger, wrist, elbow, and shoulder that will produce that outcome.
There is a method of technique analysis called uncontrolled manifold analysis which tries to find "control variables" these are things that successful movements tend to control. So for example going from sitting to standing it's shown the control variable is centre of mass trajectory. How you produce this isn't important - i.e. you might lean forward but put your arms behind you, I might lean back but put my arms in front. Our techniques look very different, but actually we produce the same control variable (com trajectory).
This also helps explain movement variability, which is higher in experts than intermediates. It would suggest there is a range for some things, while others need to be more exact (or at least fall in a tighter range).
In the case of skiing foot pressure may actually be a good control variable, so carv may well be onto something there. My own experience suggests such complicated movements as skiing don't have a single control variable (or at least uncontrolled manifold analysis in its current form is unable to find one). The issue which I've tried to point out is knowing the control variable doesn't necessarily help you understand exactly how to modify movement to best improve that.
The other issue is humans are all different. I suspect a lot of recreational athletes lack strength and flexibility to hold the same positions as pros. People have different limb length ratios, hip structure, flexibility, imbalances etc. So what is optimal for some may not work well for others.
It's a very interesting area but a complete wormhole. There is so many things you'd have to consider and they all interact (sometimes negatively) with each other. The idea of a one size fits all optimum technique seems unreasonable to me. For skiing where everything is changing all the time both environmentally and biomechanically I suspect flexibility to select the right movement is key. (Probably why the best skiers tend to be able to ski everything well!).
For example a pro skier could ski down with their hands behind their back and carv wouldn't know, in fact it would probably give them an excellent score.
But doesn't that just show that good carving is not dependent on what you do with your arms?
But carv would never suggest they could improve by changing their arm position, even though I think most of us would accept that is likely "better". It's like the opposite of what some of us have said about tricking the system to achieve a better score. In this case you see how "bad" you can make your technique while still getting a high score. For example we used to play around seeing how slow we could run over a force plate while still maintaining a zero breaking force.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
greengriff wrote:
This is turning into a very interesting thread. To take a step back to the Interski video: did any of you have any favourite styles, and if you did, then why? I liked the Slovenians because their movement seemed minimalistic and efficient with no wasted energy. That appeals to me both aesthetically and from the point of view of that it would be easier to keep up for 8 hours a day on the slope. Whereas the Korean style struck me as wasteful of energy and showy.
I like the Australian style. In Shorts, it's the low hip position, early edge grip, minimal Up movement and very quiet upper body. Personally I like a "Pole Touch" to aid with rhythm and timing.
On the Longer Turns, it's the mixture of inclination and angulation, with a "positive retraction of the inside leg" to help with pressure control on the outside ski.
It's what I was working on, myself, this year, with varying success. When I got it right, skiing became more effortless, faster, more controlled (earlier edge pressure) and higher edge angles. In my case, it was helped if I achieved a very flexed position at transition.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Sorry...
@Old Fartbag,
Quote:
I like the Australian style. In Shorts...
I had to read it all twice before I stopped seeing lederhosen!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
gixxerniknik wrote:
Sorry...
@Old Fartbag,
Quote:
I like the Australian style. In Shorts...
I had to read it all twice before I stopped seeing lederhosen!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
pam w wrote:
Quote:
For example a pro skier could ski down with their hands behind their back and carv wouldn't know, in fact it would probably give them an excellent score.
But doesn't that just show that good carving is not dependent on what you do with your arms?
I think possibly one of the downsides of Carv is that - if using it alone without other feedback - it's possible that bad habits will actually increase one's carve score while actually taking one further from 'better skiing' (or more accurately further from one's performance limit). For example there was some discussion of leaning and toppling above. Carv shows data like edge angle and outside ski pressure. It's possible to increase outside ski pressure by pushing the outside leg out, and edge angle by leaning into the turn - ie improving by Carv's metrics - but this bad habit could take one further from the better edge grip/carving performance one could achieve by better angulation and toppling 'down into the turn'/keeping COM over the skis rather than leaning in. Carv can't know that purely from foot sensors; one needs outside observation. It's not that Carv doesn't work, just that it has flaws if used in isolation.
For the record I've never used it but a good mate used to work for them (he made all their viral YouTube vids). Excellent skier anyway and sure Carv helped him improve too, which I don't doubt at all. Probably takes a certain level of ability and awareness to use it effectively without outside observation too.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
zikomo wrote:
I like the idea of Carv as getting quick feedback on sensations that are "good" for your skiing, and sensations that are "bad" could be very useful. There are quite a few videos (promoted by Carv of course) of instructors working with a student and the scores improving as they incorporate the learning from different drills, which seems interesting.
But when I approached Carv to see if I could share devices with multiple people in order to be able to use it as a coaching tool they were not interested. Which seems odd. Why would they NOT want instructors to use it with their students? Surely that sort of give it a go approach would leave to more sales. That said I am not that unhappy I have decided to give it a miss as for sure my 16 year old daughter would beat me at that too! Seriously, I was interested in experimenting with her as I know our relative strengths and weaknesses very well, so it would have provided a good test bed for the effectiveness as a teaching tool. But not to be as I don't want to shell out for 2 Carv devices to run the experiment when Carv themselves are not interested in supporting it as a tool for instructors.
and @Dave of the Marmottes
Interesting... Carv asked me last year here in Val d to take a handful of the Carv systems and trial then out with students... so basically the thinking was students would put them in their boots and it could be used in their teaching but in particular using the new video feature the pressure etc readings could marry up timeline wise with what they were seeing on video. It was part of the beta phase of development! So I have a few sets of the Carv system. The issue I found was that it took a fair amount of faff time to get it set up with students and them logged in / app downloaded etc. So whilst it could encourage them to buy the system afterwards that they were already having a lesson was testament that they wanted a real person to improve them. Now I really should get a few of those sets into boots now shouldn't I. haha
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
On Moguls - I'm more "Charlie Technique" than "Zipper Line".
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The style from yesteryear. Note the single chair where you carry your skis up and hand them to the person at the top while you get off and the women working on her snowplough while carrying her baby.
@Old Fartbag, The turns the guy was making from around 3.20 look like modern turns.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Steve Angus, I suspect they have targeted a few instructors to see how this might work. I am part-time and small scale, and not commercial (I really only teach for my own satisfaction), so they would unlikely target me specifically. That said I am quite well connected with a lot of racing coaches and others, maybe I will try again with that angle and see if they bite.
I would be interested, however, if they offered a product specifically for coaches and instructors to use. And I think I could get some good insights for this group as well by training using Carv with my daughter. We have trained a lot together, and she is much more race oriented (and more aggressive carver) than I am. But I am better in the bumps and off-piste, and have more technical knowledge. But if it is not a longer-term solution, the cost of 2 carve sets just to see if it might work is not really justifiable.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
zikomo wrote:
@Steve Angus, I suspect they have targeted a few instructors to see how this might work. I am part-time and small scale, and not commercial (I really only teach for my own satisfaction), so they would unlikely target me specifically. That said I am quite well connected with a lot of racing coaches and others, maybe I will try again with that angle and see if they bite.
I would be interested, however, if they offered a product specifically for coaches and instructors to use. And I think I could get some good insights for this group as well by training using Carv with my daughter. We have trained a lot together, and she is much more race oriented (and more aggressive carver) than I am. But I am better in the bumps and off-piste, and have more technical knowledge. But if it is not a longer-term solution, the cost of 2 carve sets just to see if it might work is not really justifiable.
yes agree would be nice for an instructor version. Personally my feedback to them was 'but its all very well having systems like this but unless you allow people to understand 'Why' and 'how' then its largely pointless' - you need augmented help to achieve goals like this. Besides carving everywhere would be like an app to help people drive better that was called 'Power Slide' - you most certainly DONT do it everywhere all the time which the concept of this app makes you think you should be doing.
Where abouts are you based? Have a few sets of the gear.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Steve Angus, I do most of my teaching in the Valais, some in Scotland also. Might be able to squeeze a trip your way though (long time since I skied Val d'isere!). It would be an interesting experiment if nothing else. My feel is it could be a good teaching tool, but only in the right context. Especially as you say, getting across the why more than anything.
And completely agree on the obsession with carving, I see far too much of that to be honest. It is one tool in the box, but equally important to develop others also.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
zikomo wrote:
.......And completely agree on the obsession with carving, I see far too much of that to be honest. It is one tool in the box, but equally important to develop others also....
So how is your XC skating then
On a serious note, and I was going to post a new thread about this, but couldn't be arsed, though think I've mentioned it before.
How many instructors use Bluetooth to talk to their clients when teaching.
All the kitesurf instructors I know use it with their pupils, and today whilst out doing XC skate drills, it had me thinking how useful it would be if I had an instructor behind me as I was skating along telling me what I should be doing etc
At the time I was doing ten x 1km stretches circa 4:40 so enough time for someone to be along side / parallel giving advice, rather than stop start stop start, I could almost write an example commentary
A few days ago a good skater I know told me how I was fast n'strong but if I tweaked my timing technique then I'd find it easier to maintain a better rythmn without beasting myself so much
I've tried Googling the concept but doesn't seem to be much out there?
Just caught up on this. I think mostly it’s natural variation. Looking up at a hill with dozens of users, I can instantly recognise my wife, or daughter, or friends. They can instantly recognise me too. Virtually every slope user is different.
To bastardise Bassment Jaxx… if everybody skied the same, we’d get tired of skiing with each other.
To pick up on the carv thing,I haven’t used it, but from the reading of these pages…
It would appear there is a strava-esque danger of chasing the numbers. @Weathercam, has admitted that he is hooked, that he has improved, but that he has also been spat out backwards in a search for better percentages. Then nearly repeated that on the very next run. It would appear that the lure of the %age improvement encourages you to push the ability/conditions envelope.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Weathercam wrote:
zikomo wrote:
.......And completely agree on the obsession with carving, I see far too much of that to be honest. It is one tool in the box, but equally important to develop others also....
So how is your XC skating then
On a serious note, and I was going to post a new thread about this, but couldn't be arsed, though think I've mentioned it before.
How many instructors use Bluetooth to talk to their clients when teaching.
All the kitesurf instructors I know use it with their pupils, and today whilst out doing XC skate drills, it had me thinking how useful it would be if I had an instructor behind me as I was skating along telling me what I should be doing etc
At the time I was doing ten x 1km stretches circa 4:40 so enough time for someone to be along side / parallel giving advice, rather than stop start stop start, I could almost write an example commentary
A few days ago a good skater I know told me how I was fast n'strong but if I tweaked my timing technique then I'd find it easier to maintain a better rythmn without beasting myself so much
I've tried Googling the concept but doesn't seem to be much out there?
have known instructors to use intercom systems in the past. From what I have seen is watching, commenting, and the student processing the feedback and then implementing all at the same time is near on impossible. By the time you say 'plant the left pole the student' is too late. Haha. The other issue ive seen is background noise... the instructor speaking the feedback and at the receiving end too to hear the words over the sound of wind / scrapping of skis on ice etc. Not saying its not possible but ive seen an instructor using and it didnt seem that easy tbh
@Steve Angus, I do most of my teaching in the Valais, some in Scotland also. Might be able to squeeze a trip your way though (long time since I skied Val d'isere!). It would be an interesting experiment if nothing else. My feel is it could be a good teaching tool, but only in the right context. Especially as you say, getting across the why more than anything.
And completely agree on the obsession with carving, I see far too much of that to be honest. It is one tool in the box, but equally important to develop others also.
Exactly "fill up the tool box"
Well youre welcome to a set if you get over this way - have some batteries and sensor pads too - just need to select the correct footbed size etc
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
dode wrote:
.....It would appear there is a strava-esque danger of chasing the numbers. @Weathercam, has admitted that he is hooked, that he has improved, but that he has also been spat out backwards in a search for better percentages. Then nearly repeated that on the very next run. It would appear that the lure of the %age improvement encourages you to push the ability/conditions envelope....
Careful, like I said it's a bit like reviewing a film on hear-say when you actually haven't seen it, in that you're going to base your assumption on Carv on the fact I lost an edge, and not go and read all the testimonials from people on how they have gone from sliding down the hill to actually getting an edge
Anyway, I'm from the school of, if you ain't falling over you aren't trying.
And @Steve Angus, get the point about the background noise etc, though what have you got when teaching kitesurfing in the wind n'waves, but then often the instructor is stationary on the beach in the shallows?
Think XC skating you could get away with it as far less noise as you're gliding, (supposedly) and the instructor could follow behind announcing "left, right, left right pole" etc
And @zikomo, issue will still probably be that you'll have to pay for a weeks subscription for you and the daughter even if you have the hardware.
And I agree that the faff factor for pupils to use it could be immense, as product it is very tech-reliant, and most will know what issues you can have with BT pairing and the like on different makes/brands of phones. KenX and I couldn't get the video to work.
Minus 10 as I write this, so not doing first lifts (got up too late) and by lunchtime will still be - figures up the hill and then a scraped piste, so back to persevering with my XC technique, when temps get a little milder here in the valley.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Steve Angus wrote:
Besides carving everywhere would be like an app to help people drive better that was called 'Power Slide' - you most certainly DONT do it everywhere all the time which the concept of this app makes you think you should be doing.
Remember Ali Ross? He was something of a pioneer in teaching carving back in the 1990s, and was know to be of the mind that you could carve everywhere all the time. Maybe he could - I saw him ski a couple of times so have no reason to doubt it - but most of the other trainers around at that time were a little more cautious about setting such a goal, both in terms of achievability and desirability.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
....Remember Ali Ross? He was something of a pioneer in teaching carving back in the 1990s, and was know to be of the mind that you could carve everywhere all the time. ......
From a page or so back
Weathercam wrote:
....
Yonks ago when I was skiing before switching to boarding for nigh on 20 years I used to do Ali Ross advanced courses, he advocated the original get down low gorilla stance, and I think it was his demo of getting someone to stand on their skis close together and then get someone to pull them over, and it was a piece of cake, then get the same person to stand with the skis wide apart and try to be pulled over and they would naturally get into a very good edging position to fight being pulled over.....
Maybe that's / he's the reason I progressed quite well with Carv
Minus 5 now time to get ready
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Weathercam, Just to be clear I think carving is great! It gives wonderful sensations, is fun, and a very efficient technique when done properly. Carv itself I think is a really interesting product and I am keen to understand how it could be used as a coaching tool, so not against it at all.
That said there are lots of other tools, and it is clear you have mastered many of them! For me the goal has always been all mountain skiing, developing the toolbox to enjoy as many conditions and types of terrain as possible. I have seen it from both sides where some good off-piste skiers sort of look down on those who enjoy the piste, and some very strong piste skiers are resistant to developing their off-piste skills. Which I think is very strange tbh. I love touring and off-piste as you do, but also really enjoy time on the piste. Another thing you get is terrain snobbery ("I'm good because I can get down a black"), which is also strange, not least as one man's definition of steep/challenging is very different from another's. And a good blue piste is there to be enjoyed too. And actually, especially off-piste, gentler slopes can be more challenging to ski well.
Only done XC a couple of times, so am rubbish. But I did get a sense of how technical it is and how it could become quite addictive!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Steve Angus wrote:
Besides carving everywhere would be like an app to help people drive better that was called 'Power Slide' - you most certainly DONT do it everywhere all the time which the concept of this app makes you think you should be doing.
Remember Ali Ross? He was something of a pioneer in teaching carving back in the 1990s, and was know to be of the mind that you could carve everywhere all the time. Maybe he could - I saw him ski a couple of times so have no reason to doubt it - but most of the other trainers around at that time were a little more cautious about setting such a goal, both in terms of achievability and desirability.
Yes of course re Ali Ross. The theory of being able to carve everywhere all the time is honourable but the reality and practicality etc is where it falls down in a real life situation and its that fantasy and pipe dream that I am not totally comfortable with with Carv.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
zikomo wrote:
@Weathercam....Another thing you get is terrain snobbery ("I'm good because I can get down a black"), which is also strange, not least as one man's definition of steep/challenging is very different from another's. And a good blue piste is there to be enjoyed too. And actually, especially off-piste, gentler slopes can be more challenging to ski well.
You sound just like me there -
Anyway at the end of the day for most people most of the time the only way you can compare yourself to a n other person is a) what run(s) you ski (irrespective of whether its the flatter part of that run just after its been pisted or not etc) and b) did you crash or not. For all its failings at least ski racing and or freestyle are relatively easy to compare like for like. In the same way one persons 'fast' is another persons 'slow' on the slopes. A person 'out of control' is another persons 'totally in control'... all quite hard to qualify sometimes!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Steve Angus wrote:
Besides carving everywhere would be like an app to help people drive better that was called 'Power Slide' - you most certainly DONT do it everywhere all the time which the concept of this app makes you think you should be doing.
Remember Ali Ross? He was something of a pioneer in teaching carving back in the 1990s, and was know to be of the mind that you could carve everywhere all the time. Maybe he could - I saw him ski a couple of times so have no reason to doubt it - but most of the other trainers around at that time were a little more cautious about setting such a goal, both in terms of achievability and desirability.
Yes of course re Ali Ross. The theory of being able to carve everywhere all the time is honourable but the reality and practicality etc is where it falls down in a real life situation and its that fantasy and pipe dream that I am not totally comfortable with with Carv.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Remember Ali Ross? He was something of a pioneer in teaching carving back in the 1990s, and was know to be of the mind that you could carve everywhere all the time. Maybe he could - I saw him ski a couple of times so have no reason to doubt it - but most of the other trainers around at that time were a little more cautious about setting such a goal, both in terms of achievability and desirability.
I think Ali Ross first appeared as one of the contributors of The Sunday Times book "We learned to ski" in 1974.....but came to prominence with "How we learned to ski" in 1983, which had both a book and VHS - and tracked the experiences of a group of skiers that he taught in Wengen.
He was definitely a pioneer back then, as he was the first person I heard talking about how the design of a ski was designed to turn; that the positions adopted while turning were as a result of countering the pull of centrifugal force; how facing downhill for moguls and short turns (with a pole plant) activated the "coiled spring" effect and that the raising/lowering of body height was as a result of the hips dropping inside the turn. For the first time, the movements that were required for turning made sense, as I started to understand the reason for them. He set the tone and standard for the good instructors that came later.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
The Sunday Times book "We learned to ski" in 1974.
I had that book! I don't think I could cope with an instructor feedingback in my ears. When I've skied with rob@rar I've been very impressed with his focussed, doable, feedback. He gives you one thing to think about - then the next time you lap down the run he can actually tell if you're trying to put it into action. One thing.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
pam w wrote:
Quote:
The Sunday Times book "We learned to ski" in 1974.
I had that book!
I have it, along with "How we learned to ski".
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Steve Angus wrote:
zikomo wrote:
@Weathercam....Another thing you get is terrain snobbery ("I'm good because I can get down a black"), which is also strange, not least as one man's definition of steep/challenging is very different from another's. And a good blue piste is there to be enjoyed too. And actually, especially off-piste, gentler slopes can be more challenging to ski well.
You sound just like me there -
Anyway at the end of the day for most people most of the time the only way you can compare yourself to a n other person is a) what run(s) you ski (irrespective of whether its the flatter part of that run just after its been pisted or not etc) and b) did you crash or not. For all its failings at least ski racing and or freestyle are relatively easy to compare like for like. In the same way one persons 'fast' is another persons 'slow' on the slopes. A person 'out of control' is another persons 'totally in control'... all quite hard to qualify sometimes!
C) How and how quickly you get to the bottom of the lift
Just about anyone can ski slowly and carefully down most blacks. But to do it in good style and good speed takes skills.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Old Fartbag wrote:
pam w wrote:
Quote:
The Sunday Times book "We learned to ski" in 1974.
I had that book!
I have it, along with "How we learned to ski".
And of course "How we relearned to ski when skis changed shape'
And the best selling "How we learned to ski again when we realised what we learned was out of date"
Remember Ali Ross? He was something of a pioneer in teaching carving back in the 1990s
Re the Sunday Times book, which is deep in my garage, from (edit, OFB is right on the 1974 ...) ... that's not 1990. And carving, iirc in it, was an aspiration for very good skiers ...
I'm not convinced (go on then, try to convince me!) that Ross was anyway in advance of the technique, but I do think he was an inspired teacher and explainer.
Not punching my own bowl much but as a callow ski "leader" in the 80s I often explained the "how the ski turns" sidecut thing to clients and they were literally amazed. Which I found extraordinary. I mean, you just need to look at the shape and the effect ...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@under a new name, take a look at the video below, mind you that was 2011 evidently, a good 20 or so years after I was skiing his courses.
Like I said I did a number of his courses back in the Yuppie 80's in Wengen then I think Meribel, probably on my Rossi 4s Equipes 203's.
Ali way back then liked and used tech, and I remember the first time out on the hill with him when he skied down past us and said "I want you to copy how low I am", so we all did that, then he said, "right I want you to really exaggerate what you just did, and get as low as you can."
It was only once back at the hotel was he able to show us the video, and you've probably guessed it, in that where we all thought we were exaggerating a low position, that was indeed just about the right position in where he wanted us to be.
We did do lots of mogul skiing and he often used his wife to float down like a bee, and he said that if you do it right you'll be able to ski like that into your 70's.
What I didn't know back then and I think neither did he was was how our knees would hold up over the ensuing years, and it's one element of skiing now, along with cruddy off-piste that I avoid preferring to keep my knees in tact for a good day.
Not a lot out there on the internet now on him, and it's a tad ironic how when first arrived here in Serre Che around a similar time Ali was putting out his last video a certain Darren Turner was coming to the fore.
@Weathercam, good (recreational) mogul skiing is not hard on your knees. it's a low (zero?) impact sport.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
under a new name wrote:
... I'm not convinced (go on then, try to convince me!) that Ross was anyway in advance of the technique...
It's kind of before my time, but as a consumer of ski literature at the time, Ross legitimized what I already knew. The other ski books I found seemed stuck in traditional learning, more like apprenticeship than education, describing an apparently pointless progression through historic styles of skiing.
After all it is free
After all it is free
under a new name wrote:
@Weathercam, good (recreational) mogul skiing is not hard on your knees. it's a low (zero?) impact sport.
@under a new name, you'll find out when you get back on skis after your successful ACL reconstruction
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Steve Angus wrote:
zikomo wrote:
@Weathercam....Another thing you get is terrain snobbery ("I'm good because I can get down a black"), which is also strange, not least as one man's definition of steep/challenging is very different from another's. And a good blue piste is there to be enjoyed too. And actually, especially off-piste, gentler slopes can be more challenging to ski well.
You sound just like me there -
Anyway at the end of the day for most people most of the time the only way you can compare yourself to a n other person is a) what run(s) you ski (irrespective of whether its the flatter part of that run just after its been pisted or not etc) and b) did you crash or not. For all its failings at least ski racing and or freestyle are relatively easy to compare like for like. In the same way one persons 'fast' is another persons 'slow' on the slopes. A person 'out of control' is another persons 'totally in control'... all quite hard to qualify sometimes!
Ski racing can be a great leveller, and the recreational timed courses you often see now are a fun way to get a sense of where you are at. There are big downsides though. I can (just) pip my 16 year old daughter on a GS course. But it is embarrassing how much quicker than me she is on a slalom course, I am not even in the game. It shows how much better her technique is. And also that physical strength/more mass (she is petite to say the least) gives some advantage in terms of absolute speed. Which I often see when teaching couples, where the man generally skis faster (and thinks he is the better skier) but the woman is the actual the better skier. Same in spey casting which I also teach, ladies listen and learn carefully and end up sending line out just as far with 50% of the effort the men are putting in for the same effect!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
Which I often see when teaching couples, where the man generally skis faster (and thinks he is the better skier) but the woman is the actual the better skier. Same in spey casting which I also teach, ladies listen and learn carefully and end up sending line out just as far with 50% of the effort the men are putting in for the same effect!
See this many times. You forgot to mention that the man is usually covered in sweat
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